Trade Logging?

[Eagle Eye]

It's about the long game, 1 min. per takeoff is enough to make a 5 round trip / hour into 6 round trip / hour (12 mins round trip becomes 10 mins round trip). That's a massive 20% extra hourly profit just from this simple method. Considering the amount of time it takes to amass 1 billion profit (if you're aiming for Elite), getting there 17% faster is worth it.

On to the original question:

No it's not bannable. You do not avoid the 15 sec. countdown (since there is none) so you're free to do this.

 

[jacozilla]

It's about the long game, 1 min. per takeoff is enough to make a 5 round trip / hour into 6 round trip / hour (12 mins round trip becomes 10 mins round trip). That's a massive 20% extra hourly profit just from this simple method. Considering the amount of time it takes to amass 1 billion profit (if you're aiming for Elite), getting there 17% faster is worth it.

On to the original question:

No it's not bannable. You do not avoid the 15 sec. countdown (since there is none) so you're free to do this.

slight correction based on my own trade route yield - dont do trade logging as yet, but if I did - the buff would be 12.5%, not 20%

8.6M CR/hr based on (4) round trips of 15 min
saving 1 min per each way of route A-B route would allow one more A or B trip (half a round trip per hour extra)

half a round trip extra averaged out on my current route is 1.075M, or call it 1.1M CR extra (on top of the 8.6M earned normally)

1.1M boost to 8.6M is 12.5%

i concede it could be higher, maybe even 20% if you found routes with faster round trips, allowing the saved time to squeeze in one full round trip rather than my half. But on the most optimal, highest profit route i can find so far, trade logging yield over long term would be 12.5% for me

soinds like worth doing either way but still on fence actually doing so because i actually like piloting my ships out of dock, even my brute of a space cow, type 9

 

[Fire70]

I am just baffled that people would do this.
It is a (horrible) sign of the times I guess.
And it makes me sad and depressed that people have become this way.

I can't wrap my head around the fact that people even play games this way.
It seems a total waste of the game.
I'd rather flush it down the toilet than play any game that way.
I'm not sure but it might have something to do with a generation difference.



You are perfectly free to play the game any which way you want.
I don't even care about combat logging or whatever else.
Do what you want to do.
The only thing is that I don't understand the mentality behind it.

A couple of reasons why players would prefer to do it:

1. It is marginally quicker and far less risky that do it than the old fashioned way.

2. The take of and landing is very repetitive and boring in reality. Every single Station is exactly the same on the inside!!!

It is only natural for players to try and get around the boring bits. On the odd occasion I play I am usually alt tabbing to something more interesting while in hyper drive mainly because it is boring.. This issue isn't so much the logging off but it is why should the game be more enjoyable to players by doing it this way as opposed to landing - taking off normally..

 

[kurush]

And it makes me sad and depressed that people have become this way.

I am so happy to hear this. May be you need to know that I trade-logged probably more than a hundred of times today

 

[Eagle Eye]

slight correction based on my own trade route yield - dont do trade logging as yet, but if I did - the buff would be 12.5%, not 20%

8.6M CR/hr based on (4) round trips of 15 min
saving 1 min per each way of route A-B route would allow one more A or B trip (half a round trip per hour extra)

half a round trip extra averaged out on my current route is 1.075M, or call it 1.1M CR extra (on top of the 8.6M earned normally)

1.1M boost to 8.6M is 12.5%

i concede it could be higher, maybe even 20% if you found routes with faster round trips, allowing the saved time to squeeze in one full round trip rather than my half. But on the most optimal, highest profit route i can find so far, trade logging yield over long term would be 12.5% for me

soinds like worth doing either way but still on fence actually doing so because i actually like piloting my ships out of dock, even my brute of a space cow, type 9

I am clearly talking about a normally 5 return trip / hour route. Of course the boost would differ depending on how many trip/h you do on your current route.

 

[Kitiara]

Is installing the game an exploit? D:

Absolutely, it conveys a totally unfair advantage over those players that do not have it installed.

 

[Kosmetas]

Just BAN them all.. so tired of these "Tommy has his hand in the cookie jar!" threads. Just worry about how you play the game, don't waste energy on what the rest are doing.

 

[Fire70]

Just BAN them all.. so tired of these "Tommy has his hand in the cookie jar!" threads. Just worry about how you play the game, don't waste energy on what the rest are doing.

Play It YOUR Way!!!

 

[jacozilla]

I am clearly talking about a normally 5 return trip / hour route. Of course the boost would differ depending on how many trip/h you do on your current route.

Right. But what I'm saying is that the highest profit routes I've found take a bit longer - to take advantage of a 5 round trip/hr route, I'd have to go down in profitability

I dont dismiss the possibility it can exist, but every quoted CR/hr or CR/ton profit reference I've read players post suggests 8.6M / hour with type 9 - or 4200+ CR/ton profit is about as high as it gets.

if you earn more than that on your 5 return trip route per hour, then I will readily concede. Until then though, gaining 20% via trade logging would only seem to be via inefficient CR/hour routes.

 

[ocflyer]

I also press space to bypass the loading title sequence.

I didn't know you could do this. Thanks! Guess I'll have to be banned, too.

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

I don't like trade-loggers. I see it as an exploit, and it does affect my game. I can get my Anaconda in and out of a station quickly, although not as quickly as if I trade-logged. I have a good HOTAS and muscle memory doing most of the work so I'm along for the ride. And I enjoy the serenity of it all.

Trade-loggers seem to miss that in their pursuit of the cr/hr grail. I've seen multiple Open-mode T-9's disappear when lifting off from Gliese 868 or other popular trade hubs. Then I see their high wake outside the station after I'm only just starting to charge my FSD. It bugs me, but it's not game-breaking. I hate loading screens with a passion and will gladly pilot out of the slot under my own steam rather than do what they're doing.

Quite frankly if another player wants to, then that's up to them. I'm a pilot not an Escape-key jockey.

If I were FD, I'd close the hole; stations have a perfect orbital solution provided by the game - for any particular in-game time code you can calculate the precise position and attitude of the station (it does it when you drop out of SC on approach to a station... why can't it do that on log-in? End result - on log-in you should just be deposited back inside the station. Fixed.

To me FD not patching this hole up is just lack of programmer time, and not enough reward for having fixed this small exploit...

 

[IcePic]

Sad to see that so few realized it comes with the built in slowness of undocking. Looking at the useless blast shield for the 1000th time and flipping your ship aroung on outposts serves no other purpose than to waste your time. If players react to that, it feels very natural to me.

 

[jacozilla]

I don't like trade-loggers. I see it as an exploit, and it does affect my game. I can get my Anaconda in and out of a station quickly, although not as quickly as if I trade-logged. I have a good HOTAS and muscle memory doing most of the work so I'm along for the ride. And I enjoy the serenity of it all.

Trade-loggers seem to miss that in their pursuit of the cr/hr grail. I've seen multiple Open-mode T-9's disappear when lifting off from Gliese 868 or other popular trade hubs. Then I see their high wake outside the station after I'm only just starting to charge my FSD. It bugs me, but it's not game-breaking. I hate loading screens with a passion and will gladly pilot out of the slot under my own steam rather than do what they're doing.

Quite frankly if another player wants to, then that's up to them. I'm a pilot not an Escape-key jockey.

If I were FD, I'd close the hole; stations have a perfect orbital solution provided by the game - for any particular in-game time code you can calculate the precise position and attitude of the station (it does it when you drop out of SC on approach to a station... why can't it do that on log-in? End result - on log-in you should just be deposited back inside the station. Fixed.

To me FD not patching this hole up is just lack of programmer time, and not enough reward for having fixed this small exploit...

Out of curiosity - are you against high-res logging as well? (to reset instance without taking time to fly out and back in?)

 

[Dhan]

Out of curiosity - are you against high-res logging as well? (to reset instance without taking time to fly out and back in?)

That would also be an exploit if we are going by the definition of using unintended mechanics to gain an advantage. So the better question would be, are you for or against exploiting.

 

[jacozilla]

That would also be an exploit if we are going by the definition of using unintended mechanics to gain an advantage. So the better question would be, are you for or against exploiting.

I am against exploiting, yes. But my definition of exploiting is fairly tightly focused - as in, there are only few things I consider exploits.

I asked re: the for or against high res logging because it seems whether you believe trade and high res logging are exploits or not - good or bad or not - it is consistent to believe both are bad, or both are good. But highly inconsistent to believe one is ok, one is an exploit since as you pointed out, uses same mechanic (log out) to gain same advantage (time avoid flying in-game space).

My definition of exploit is easier related as simple examples -
1) Finding some quirk in an RPG where if you click the buy and sell buttons really fast, gets you free loot - I consider this an exploit because it is taking advantage of something obviously not intended. (e.g. goods are meant to be purchased, yet you get it free)

2) Using a mechanic that exists to do what the mechanic is advertised for - logging out to log out - and finding as a result that it saves you time, I would categorize as min/maxing, which is a behavior some people chase, some don't care, and some call exploit. I don't know if can ever be factually decided who is right or wrong - the bottom line is whatever the game manufacturer calls an 'exploit' is, and what they allow 'isn't'

But my personal definition is that if you use a mechanic the game gave that does exactly what the mechanic is supposed to do - log out = log out, then any other side effect is like military tactics - there is no fair or unfair about surprise attacks, it just is part of min/maxing your superiority or options over another. You either choose to use it in that way or not.

But if you use a game mechanic that does the opposite or complete different from what it is supposed to do - Buy button that is supposed to buy commodities, but gives you free commodities instead - then that is using a game mechanic outside of it's designed function, and the side effect of free goods is an exploit.

Long answer to a short question but best I can do. I also don't acknowledge there is any more veracity to my answer than anyone else. Ultimately, 'exploit' is whatever the game devs says it is, and whatever they allow isn't. Doesn't mean we can't have opinions about it - but pretending there is an actual definitive line that proves one party right vs the other is in my opinion pretty silly.

 

[Ving]

I am against exploiting, yes. But my definition of exploiting is fairly tightly focused - as in, there are only few things I consider exploits.

I asked re: the for or against high res logging because it seems whether you believe trade and high res logging are exploits or not - good or bad or not - it is consistent to believe both are bad, or both are good. But highly inconsistent to believe one is ok, one is an exploit since as you pointed out, uses same mechanic (log out) to gain same advantage (time avoid flying in-game space).

My definition of exploit is easier related as simple examples -
1) Finding some quirk in an RPG where if you click the buy and sell buttons really fast, gets you free loot - I consider this an exploit because it is taking advantage of something obviously not intended. (e.g. goods are meant to be purchased, yet you get it free)

2) Using a mechanic that exists to do what the mechanic is advertised for - logging out to log out - and finding as a result that it saves you time, I would categorize as min/maxing, which is a behavior some people chase, some don't care, and some call exploit. I don't know if can ever be factually decided who is right or wrong - the bottom line is whatever the game manufacturer calls an 'exploit' is, and what they allow 'isn't'

But my personal definition is that if you use a mechanic the game gave that does exactly what the mechanic is supposed to do - log out = log out, then any other side effect is like military tactics - there is no fair or unfair about surprise attacks, it just is part of min/maxing your superiority or options over another. You either choose to use it in that way or not.

But if you use a game mechanic that does the opposite or complete different from what it is supposed to do - Buy button that is supposed to buy commodities, but gives you free commodities instead - then that is using a game mechanic outside of it's designed function, and the side effect of free goods is an exploit.

Long answer to a short question but best I can do. I also don't acknowledge there is any more veracity to my answer than anyone else. Ultimately, 'exploit' is whatever the game devs says it is, and whatever they allow isn't. Doesn't mean we can't have opinions about it - but pretending there is an actual definitive line that proves one party right vs the other is in my opinion pretty silly.

Very well put, agree completely. If ppl want to min-max with a game mechanic that effectively 'does what it says on the tin' then I don't see how it is an exploit. Whether it adds to game enjoyment is another question.

 

[scorpyon]

How exactly do you detect when someone is doing this?
You logged off near a station! Exploit!

Since they are using the Save & Exit game menu route, there's nothing wrong with this.

If FD are really at all concerned about this (not sure why they would be, since what does it matter? People are saving themselves what? a few seconds?) - they could simply put in a check that detects if you are inside the station when logging out.
If so, then stick you back in the hangar for when you log back in.
Simples.

 

[jacozilla]

How exactly do you detect when someone is doing this?
You logged off near a station! Exploit!

Since they are using the Save & Exit game menu route, there's nothing wrong with this.

If FD are really at all concerned about this (not sure why they would be, since what does it matter? People are saving themselves what? a few seconds?) - they could simply put in a check that detects if you are inside the station when logging out.
If so, then stick you back in the hangar for when you log back in.
Simples.

again not adamantly defending nor condemning it, but if you read the full thread, you'll find some numbers thrown around. I don't pretend to be 100% accurate and I don't think other poster does either - but basically, trade logging for a ship like the type 9 will increase your revenue CR/hour by somewhere between 12.5% - 20% (take your pick on who's example or math you think fits your routes best)

for a type 9 I can personally attest when testing this that it saves well over a minute per each 1 way segment - considering usual route is 15 min round trip, that 2 min saving adds up to anywhere between 1/2 to 1 full extra round trip. In CR terms, an extra 1.1M to 2.2M CR per hour just by trade logging.

Good or bad, it's not small potatoes if you have a ship that lets you scale trade.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's "clever use of game mechanics".

 

[Eagle Eye]

Right. But what I'm saying is that the highest profit routes I've found take a bit longer - to take advantage of a 5 round trip/hr route, I'd have to go down in profitability

I dont dismiss the possibility it can exist, but every quoted CR/hr or CR/ton profit reference I've read players post suggests 8.6M / hour with type 9 - or 4200+ CR/ton profit is about as high as it gets.

if you earn more than that on your 5 return trip route per hour, then I will readily concede. Until then though, gaining 20% via trade logging would only seem to be via inefficient CR/hour routes.

It's not even an issue... I choose 5 trip/h because it's easier to calculate in your head how I got there without doing all kinds of explanations.

I don't care if your route has massive profits because not everyone runs your route & if they do it will bring down its profitability. Feel free to share though.