The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[JessieColt]

In that case they SHOULD add guilds because the most recent poll was over 60% of players want guilds. In fact only about 15% of players are against having them. So if you about not ruining the game for the majority, your on the wrong side.

Internet polls are meaningless. Forum polls even more so.

Only people who either absolutely love an idea, or absolutely hate the idea, are going to even bother to vote. Keep in mind, that in nearly every game that has a web based forum, usually less than 10% of the player base even participates on the forums with any regularity.

If you view the poll attached to this thread, the vote count is 1450. So if the game has 200,000 users, the poll got a whopping 0.725% of the user base even bothering to vote.

Not a very accurate representation of what the users really want.

 

[Malpherian]

Internet polls are meaningless. Forum polls even more so.

Only people who either absolutely love an idea, or absolutely hate the idea, are going to even bother to vote. Keep in mind, that in nearly every game that has a web based forum, usually less than 10% of the player base even participates on the forums with any regularity.

If you view the poll attached to this thread, the vote count is 1450. So if the game has 200,000 users, the poll got a whopping 0.725% of the user base even bothering to vote.

Not a very accurate representation of what the users really want.

This game does not have 200k users it has about 10k users, it had over 100k maybe 200k on release and dureing early access but in the last 3-4 months the population has dropped like a rock. Still only 10% like you said if that's the case, but really.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

This game does not have 200k users it has about 10k users, it had over 100k maybe 200k on release and dureing early access but in the last 3-4 months the population has dropped like a rock. Still only 10% like you said if that's the case, but really.

Aaaaahahahahahaha! And you have all the figures, right?

Man, suffering from insomnia with a throat infection, it's past 3am, and you just cheered me up

Thanks for that laugh!

 

[Dave1235]

This game does not have 200k users it has about 10k users, it had over 100k maybe 200k on release and dureing early access but in the last 3-4 months the population has dropped like a rock. Still only 10% like you said if that's the case, but really.

You can't even guess how many users there are, but there are > 600k owners so 10k users seems a little low (you can find the > 600k in a post by Robert Maynard a while back).

Please provide links to support your numbers, or comments that "the population has dropped like a rock".

How do you know "it has about 10k users"?

I am looking forward to analysing your data (PS Steam is just a lot of hot air!)

 

[Robert Maynard]

It also facilitates positive groups as well as rp content among other player made content. And faster response times to combat the negative groups.

So yes it would definitely be assinine to not include a function simply because a few of them might be fraks.

That's like saying you shouldn't leave the station in open mode because a player might shoot you.

The positives of having guilds far out ways any possible negative side effects.

Its why every single "successful" MMO have them.

There will be problem Guilds (if Guilds are eventually supported) it is an inevitability - and it doesn't take many spores to make the whole game contaminated.

Some players *choose* not to leave a station (in Open) if they know that another player is waiting for them outside.

In your opinion "the positives of having guilds far out ways any possible side effects" - I don't share that opinion.

.... or does every single "successful" (and all of the unsuccessful) MMO have Guilds because they are part of the cookie cutter minimum trope kit that players have come to expect?

 

[Robert Maynard]

In that case they SHOULD add guilds because the most recent poll was over 60% of players want guilds. In fact only about 15% of players are against having them. So if you about not ruining the game for the majority, your on the wrong side.

There's no requirement to actually own the game to be able to vote in a forum poll. A poll being advertised on different forums with the obvious intent of affecting the outcome doesn't necessarily help either.

 

[Robert Maynard]

This game does not have 200k users it has about 10k users, it had over 100k maybe 200k on release and dureing early access but in the last 3-4 months the population has dropped like a rock. Still only 10% like you said if that's the case, but really.

Citation required.

 

[PiLhEaD]

There's no requirement to actually own the game to be able to vote in a forum poll. A poll being advertised on different forums with the obvious intent of affecting the outcome doesn't necessarily help either.

Agreed and seconded.

 

[jabokai]

2. To point out exactly what you did which makes any anti guild argument irrelevant: Solo mode.

New Mode : Guild mode. Leave Open as it is, for the many existing players of the game who want things to continue as they are (at least guild wise) - don't see why they should be forced into another mode. New feature = new mode = fairer.

In that case they SHOULD add guilds because the most recent poll was over 60% of players want guilds. In fact only about 15% of players are against having them. So if you about not ruining the game for the majority, your on the wrong side.

In addition to what others have said about the poll (that they're pretty much worthless unless FD do them within the game itself), the ballot box was stuffed by Reddit users. The poll was very different before the poll was advertised to a pro guild crowd there. Not saying their opinion doesn't count, but it wasn't advertised equally so other people, sites and forums which would have had a more anti guild stance were not jumping in to twist the poll.

 

[smiths121]

Hello Malhperian,


We looked at the Steam graphs earlier in the thread. FD have sold somewhere around 700K copies, about 250K through steam. I agree active Steam players are around 10%. Different demographic when a game is marketed to you, or going to a unknown web store and buying. I would suugest (its an opinion), that a higher percentage are active for those that go to the ED store because of the how they made the decision to buy. Steam average play time was less than FD average play time, somewhat backs it up, although very subjective as the ED store has been selling longer.

If 90% of people have stopped playing the game, then core game design needs to change if it desirable to attract those players back, guilds are just a small part. It would be catering for the 6% (60% of 10%) of people left, rather than expanding the game to newer players to whom the core is attractive, or seeking feedback from the 90% that left and modding the core based on this.

In short if the user base has dwindled as much as you believe, what you and I believe is irrelevant, as the future of the game should be modelled on the 90% for the game to have a future.

Personaly using your maths, I fear adding guilds will just lose the other 4%. Solo is not the answer.

Simon

This game does not have 200k users it has about 10k users, it had over 100k maybe 200k on release and dureing early access but in the last 3-4 months the population has dropped like a rock. Still only 10% like you said if that's the case, but really.

 

[smiths121]

A group of players could implement all the negative behaviour of a guild in ED today to some degree or another.

It does not happen very often as the only reason for a guild to do this without access, control and ownership is boredom. Their actions are for a moment as once they stop they have gain nothing as their actions cannot alter the state of the universe.

We have some positive guild behaviour I would as, EG for example, train nubies, expand into systems change the controlling faction. This is all good stuff.

So I actually think the complete opposite to you. I think ED encourages the positives of organised groups without the negatives . I am pretty much in favour of increasing tools to make this organisation easier, a conclusion I finally came to after Lugh/KhaKa, being on the losing disorganised Fed side.

Simon

Actually most of us are ok people we have some fraks but not as many as in the past.

The point of that post was point. Out 2 things:

1. The issues attempting to be prevented by not haveing guilds are already possible if not already present in the game.

2. To point out exactly what you did which makes any anti guild argument irrelevant: Solo mode.

Therefore since all of the negatives of guilds are already in the game, the only thing not having them does is decrease your playerbase and the games income.

Neither of which are good for ED.

Basically we already have all of the negatives without any of the positives.

 

[WlLL0W]

I don't see the bad side of guilds myself. Or really care if they're ever implemented either tbh. A lot of the problems that guilds can cause will be eliminated by the existence of Solo anyway

you've contradicted yourself.

you say that you dont see the bad side of guilds, and then talk about a solution to the problems they create.

thing is, why should i have to play in solo, in order to avoid the problems caused by guilds?

lets just not have guilds.

 

[Malpherian]

There will be problem Guilds (if Guilds are eventually supported) it is an inevitability - and it doesn't take many spores to make the whole game contaminated.

Some players *choose* not to leave a station (in Open) if they know that another player is waiting for them outside.

In your opinion "the positives of having guilds far out ways any possible side effects" - I don't share that opinion.

.... or does every single "successful" (and all of the unsuccessful) MMO have Guilds because they are part of the cookie cutter minimum trope kit that players have come to expect?

I am positive that people who are not automatically Biased against Guilds, and Demonize them, have a totally different opinion. In fact the Billions of people who play games all across the world, and also belong to guilds would disagree with you.

I would like to know what your definition of a "Bad Guild" is. Simply because ED is a sandbox, and is advertised to support Piracy etc and all the game play types which most would consider to be "Bad". So if your very game supports these features and choices of players to begin with, Is it not hypocritical of you to say "Guilds will do this and ruin the game" when your game inherently supports (and even encourages) said behavior from it's players to begin with?

So Specifically what by your definition, is ruining the game and what could these guilds possibly do which is not already encourage and supported by the very nature of ED in the first place?

It seems to me this fear of guilds, is not only irrational, but from what I have read and you all have said, hypocritical to the very nature and encouraged play-styles of ED itself.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I am positive that people who are not automatically Biased against Guilds, and Demonize them, have a totally different opinion. In fact the Billions of people who play games all across the world, and also belong to guilds would disagree with you.

I would like to know what your definition of a "Bad Guild" is. Simply because ED is a sandbox, and is advertised to support Piracy etc and all the game play types which most would consider to be "Bad". So if your very game supports these features and choices of players to begin with, Is it not hypocritical of you to say "Guilds will do this and ruin the game" when your game inherently supports (and even encourages) said behavior from it's players to begin with?

So Specifically what by your definition, is ruining the game and what could these guilds possibly do which is not already encourage and supported by the very nature of ED in the first place?

It seems to me this fear of guilds, is not only irrational, but from what I have read and you all have said, hypocritical to the very nature of ED itself.

"Fear" or "dislike" of guilds is a misnomer, really.

It's just not suitable for the Elite concept and ethos.

In Elite, technically there is already a guild - the Elite Federation Of Pilots. Entirely NPC/PvE - and that's enough for the game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I am positive that people who are not automatically Biased against Guilds, and Demonize them, have a totally different opinion. In fact the Billions of people who play games all across the world, and also belong to guilds would disagree with you.

I would like to know what your definition of a "Bad Guild" is. Simply because ED is a sandbox, and is advertised to support Piracy etc and all the game play types which most would consider to be "Bad". So if your very game supports these features and choices of players to begin with, Is it not hypocritical of you to say "Guilds will do this and ruin the game" when your game inherently supports (and even encourages) said behavior from it's players to begin with?

So Specifically what by your definition, is ruining the game and what could these guilds possibly do which is not already encourage and supported by the very nature of ED in the first place?

It seems to me this fear of guilds, is not only irrational, but from what I have read and you all have said, hypocritical to the very nature of ED itself.

It would be no surprise at all to learn that people who like Guilds like Guilds. Citation required for "billions" of Guild members worldwide, please.

In my opinion, a "bad Guild" is one that goes out of its way to engage in behaviour that causes players (especially unaffiliated players) to experience an unacceptable gaming experience. People play games for "fun" and while different peoples' definition of "fun" will vary, no-one is in a position to tell anyone else what "fun" is - it is subjective. The game (our game, not my game - I am not a Frontier representative) supports anti-social behaviour. It also supports small groups (Wings, max population of 4). The CEO of the Developer is on record as having reservations about common behaviours of large player groups. I share those concerns.

We won't have a complete list of how Guilds could adversely affect players gaming experience until well after Guilds were implemented - by which time it would be far too late to say "Oh, maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all".

Being content with the fact that Guilds have not been implemented / facilitated in-game can hardly be compared to fear - this is a video game we're talking about - nothing to fear, at all. Concern that Guilds might be implemented is due, on my part at least, from the expectation that the inclusion of such features would diminish my enjoyment of my chosen game mode (Open, by the way).

 

[Malpherian]

New Mode : Guild mode. Leave Open as it is, for the many existing players of the game who want things to continue as they are (at least guild wise) - don't see why they should be forced into another mode. New feature = new mode = fairer.



In addition to what others have said about the poll (that they're pretty much worthless unless FD do them within the game itself), the ballot box was stuffed by Reddit users. The poll was very different before the poll was advertised to a pro guild crowd there. Not saying their opinion doesn't count, but it wasn't advertised equally so other people, sites and forums which would have had a more anti guild stance were not jumping in to twist the poll.

Youd have to set up an entirely new mode where all guilds could be active at the same time in the same mode, this mode would also need to be able to support features the others wouldn't such as teritory control, system wars etc.

But yea I would be fine with this. And I think the Devs and owners and mods of ED will find this mode to hold 90% of the player base if created. Simply because it will have far more content and support systems for people then the other modes, because of these "Guilds".

 

[Malpherian]

It would be no surprise at all to learn that people who like Guilds like Guilds. Citation required for "billions" of Guild members worldwide, please.

In my opinion, a "bad Guild" is one that goes out of its way to engage in behaviour that causes players (especially unaffiliated players) to experience an unacceptable gaming experience. People play games for "fun" and while different peoples' definition of "fun" will vary, no-one is in a position to tell anyone else what "fun" is - it is subjective. The game (our game, not my game - I am not a Frontier representative) supports anti-social behaviour. It also supports small groups (Wings, max population of 4). The CEO of the Developer is on record as having reservations about common behaviours of large player groups. I share those concerns.

We won't have a complete list of how Guilds could adversely affect players gaming experience until well after Guilds were implemented - by which time it would be far too late to say "Oh, maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all".

Being content with the fact that Guilds have not been implemented / facilitated in-game can hardly be compared to fear - this is a video game we're talking about - nothing to fear, at all. Concern that Guilds might be implemented is due, on my part at least, from the expectation that the inclusion of such features would diminish my enjoyment of my chosen game mode (Open, by the way).

You know full well I would have to list and cite every single MMO that supported guilds and their relevant information which would be impossible as there is too much info. But lets start with:

WoW - over 10 million players
EvE - over 500,000 players
Tera - over 6 million players
Archeage - over 3 million players
ESO - Over 2 million Players

Not to mention every F2p, B2PL, and Guild Supported MOBA on the market. All of which have one thing in common that ED does not have.

Guilds.

All of which also have something else that ED doesn't have:

A daily user population of over 500,000 Players Online daily (Including log ins of different accounts if not all on at the same time). And millions of Copies Sold.

Apparently Guilds are a major factor in whether a consumer "Buy's" your game or not and continues to play it. Great games are Great, but MMO's are social game aspects. ED is a social experience, and although it can be enjoyed by an individual (I myself play solo mode a lot), it is at it's core an MMO.

Also the reason I play SOLO mode is because there is currently no difference int he social aspect of the game between SOLO and Open mode. I'm generally playing by myself either way. Because there is no support or structure for any type of large scale social interaction currently in ED.

* Socialization, is a HUGE part of any MMO game, the fact that ED does not support such is not only a travesty, it is hurting the games sales, as well as it's population.

Sure ED is still a great game, Obviously. But more people and the support to interact and find these people and organize, would make it SO MUCH better.

------

* You all keep tossing this 600k - 750k or something sales figure around like it's good. Your in the MMO market now unless your retailing sales in the "Multi" millions (Of Copies Sold), your in the gutter and not even a competitor, a C listed game at best. Even Perpetuum (EvE with Robots instead of spaceships) which almost no one has heard of, sold over 3 million Copies. And the AAA games I listed above all Sold over 10 million Copies if not more.

Hell... Even Fallout and Skyrim Sold more then ED, 2+ Millions for every single game released in those Genres, and those are single player games. So your not even competing well with the single player market either.

That obviously means your doing something wrong. Just saying. If ED was single player only I wouldn't be arguing for guilds, I'd be saying the game has very little content for it's price point because compared to say X3 or even some of the 9.99$ Space games it has very little.

ED is basically a chopped down version of "Star Conflict". if you want to get real with stuff. (And SC has over 5 million Players) and supports guilds.

Seems to me MMO's with guilds have far higher sales, and far more players. Even the really crappy games (Like SC, yea it has more content, but its also not as large or fleshed out as ED, and the ship controls are different and not cockpit related).

 

[Theodrid]

I am positive that people who are not automatically Biased against Guilds, and Demonize them, have a totally different opinion. In fact the Billions of people who play games all across the world, and also belong to guilds would disagree with you.

I would like to know what your definition of a "Bad Guild" is. Simply because ED is a sandbox, and is advertised to support Piracy etc and all the game play types which most would consider to be "Bad". So if your very game supports these features and choices of players to begin with, Is it not hypocritical of you to say "Guilds will do this and ruin the game" when your game inherently supports (and even encourages) said behavior from it's players to begin with?

So Specifically what by your definition, is ruining the game and what could these guilds possibly do which is not already encourage and supported by the very nature of ED in the first place?

It seems to me this fear of guilds, is not only irrational, but from what I have read and you all have said, hypocritical to the very nature and encouraged play-styles of ED itself.

Fear, don't make me laugh, here is a surprise for you, I am in successful guilds in other games and enjoy what they bring to THOSE games but I, and a fair few others I would guess, do not see a place for them in Elite D. Now, if you want to carry on 'bigging yourself up', 'making yourself feel like the big man' or whatever it is by spouting nonsense about 'fear' and the like you go right ahead, but be aware the vast majority of us are not buying into, believing or giving any credit to your 'stance'. And before you use the term 'hypocrite' again, guess what? - it is possible for some things to have a place and be liked in certain games but not in others without that view/position being a hypocritical one.

 

[Gibbonici]

But yea I would be fine with this. And I think the Devs and owners and mods of ED will find this mode to hold 90% of the player base if created. Simply because it will have far more content and support systems for people then the other modes, because of these "Guilds".

I'm not so sure. Most games in recent years have tried to build strong guild gameplay into themselves, and almost all have proved to be less than compelling. The ones that thrive on it are a very small minority. There are no guarantees that spending time and resources developing all this guild content would achieve what you think, and there are fewer reasons for FD to divert from their 5 or whatever year plan they've already got for future expansions and development.

This whole argument is moot. Work is almost certainly underway on 2016's paid expansion and it'll tie into 2017's paid expansion. Guilds may become a thing during that time, but they won't become the focus of the game, or as significant a part of it as some would like. In the end it's about how much time and resources that FD can put into heavy guild gameplay (even if they wanted to) - and it's nowhere near as a large a proportion of either as CCP (for example) have over the past 10+ years.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You know full well I would have to list and cite every single MMO that supported guilds and their relevant information which would be impossible as there is too much info. But lets start with:

WoW - over 10 million players
EvE - over 500,000 players
Tera - over 6 million players
Archeage - over 3 million players
ESO - Over 2 million Players

Not to mention every F2p, B2PL, and Guild Supported MOBA on the market. All of which have one thing in common that ED does not have.

Guilds.

All of which also have something else that ED doesn't have:

A daily user population of over 500,000 Players Online daily (Including log ins of different accounts if not all on at the same time). And millions of Copies Sold.

Apparently Guilds are a major factor in whether a consumer "Buy's" your game or not and continues to play it. Great games are Great, but MMO's are social game aspects. ED is a social experience, and although it can be enjoyed by an individual (I myself play solo mode a lot), it is at it's core an MMO.

Also the reason I play SOLO mode is because there is currently no difference int he social aspect of the game between SOLO and Open mode. I'm generally playing by myself either way. Because there is no support or structure for any type of social interaction currently in ED.

* Socialization, is a HUGE part of any MMO game, the fact that ED does not support such is not only a travesty, it is hurting the games sells, as well as it's population.

Sure ED is still a great game, Obviously. But more people and the support to interact and find these people and organize, would make it SO MUCH better.

------

* You all keep tossing this 600k - 750k or something sales figure around like it's good. Your in the MMO market now unless your retailing sales in the "Multi" millions (Of Copies Sold), your in the gutter and not even a competitor, a C listed game at best. Even Perpetuum (EvE with Robots instead of spaceships) which almost no one has heard of, sold over 3 million Copies. And the AAA games I listed above all Sold over 10 million Copies if not more.

Indeed - which is exactly why I questioned such a large number. You've got to 21.5M so far - presumably copies sold and not necessarily current players.

As to user population, Frontier does not publish play statistics and players using the Steam client do not comprise the whole population - any numbers here for E: D are guesswork. As to the other games, are you erally suggesting that all of those games each have 500,000 players online each day? Citation required, please.

Guilds would seem to be one of the "me too" tropes common to most MMO games - maybe E: D will buck that trend.

You say that on the one hand "ED is a social experience" and on the other hand "there is no support or structure for any type of social interaction currently in ED". Maybe the former assertion is incorrect, to an extent. The latter certainly is - we have Wings and Wing communications - yes, that only allows four players to communicate and work together but it is more than "no support or structure for any type of social interaction".

We agree that E: D is a great game. Where we disagree is with respect to whether it would be better if Guilds were introduced.

As long as Frontier is making a profit from E: D I'm not going to worry - we'll see how sales figures compare when the game is the same age as those you mention above.