The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Cody]

Just to politely but publicly remind FD[snip]

Good luck!

 

[Dave1235]

Good luck!

Oh no, Iron Mouse just lost it (who stole his cookies?), I hear the roar I tell you....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7evWkcW-kag

This **** just got serious (heads to bunker with a shovel to dig deeper) <shudders>

 

[david6768]

It's not guilds per se that I think won't work - I'm in one, although I wouldn't call it a "guild" (it's a naff word).

Any player-owned station mechanic is going to have to take into account the existing simulation rules governing NPC factions -- why should players enjoy a privileged position in the sim? --. This would leave player factions open to undermining. As solo mode isn't going away, you've got a problem immediately - states like famine, civil unrest, lockdown and outbreak can be triggered easily by one player if they know how. These can have really annoying effects on the system and block other states.

Given that the NPC factions controlling a station can be undermined and lose the station in a conflict or election, I can imagine the rage threads when player factions lose their system to another player faction or a player-backed NPC faction. It would be hilarious.

You can't extort money or enforce no-fly zones when players can just disappear into private groups or solo mode. FD have shown no inclination to introduce docking fees or the like thus far, and instead seem pretty committed to the facilities in the game being available to all who go through that part of space.

Locking the "profits" from a station into an indirect relationship to the player via missions and trading allows FD to simplify the simulation - you don't really need to perform any heavy-duty accounting when currency in the game is either in player accounts or magicked out the aether when missions are completed. Player factions looking for a way to make money by running a station are asking for a major addition to the BGS, perhaps even a major rewrite. Additionally, it would take a lot of man hours and access to the scripting engine for players to be able to draft their own missions for a station, and this would also be potentially open to serious abuse.


I'm not saying it can't be done; it just seems to me that most of the people calling for it haven't really thought through what they're actually asking for - an extensive rewrite of the game to include things that were never part of the original design.

Why? I don't see myself owning a space station that is already in the game but owning one in an empty system or orbiting a planet next to a station that is already there. There are plenty of places in game right now that there are three different space stations with three different owners in the same system. Player owned space stations would be in addition to already present NPC stations.
I think the ability to take over NPC stations would be horrible as with the right stations you could lock out 1/2 the galaxy. No where nearby to fuel scoop and you take over that station and you have a monopoly on refueling and that would be bad. A private station 10Ls from an NPC station and those kinds of problems are no longer there. Undermining a player owned station, I don't see that happening either.

But it kind of goes along with natural progression:
For a trader to trade back and forth between stores to eventually to be able to become a store owner
A Miner to eventually be able to have a mining operation AKA mining base!

 

[Triblade]

Unfortunately, the inevitable outcome of their being a guild/clan system would be increased projection of hostile, 'claimed' space and further demands from (perhaps a minority of) guilds for more and more direct powers re: background galaxy sim and more attempts to negatively impact the sim if demands are not met. That is an easy conclusion to draw from the very clear evidence in this and other threads rife with name-calling, posturing and often outright bragging of intent to abuse others or simply wage chaos and destruction if not appeased.

Such projections create the potential to develop into a broader toxic environment (an environment that is counter-productive to long term health and productivity of it's members and the collective as a whole, in this case "the galaxy") through the growth of a bullying culture; the application of bullying and aggression and a binary win/lose, us/them mindset. As Frontier have repeatedly stated that they believe all modes are equal and valid, we can also imply that playing by oneself without direct influence on your person from others actions is also intended and valid. Guilds would break that separation so the conclusion is that territory owning and sim-modifying guilds should never happen.

There are a lot of smart people out there. You could create something so that people can only create their own stations (steering away from the clan discussion) a few systems away from 'powers'. Why can't we have refueling outposts out there?

These guild proposals are toxic to the whole ethos and atmosphere of the Elite concept.

It's cancer to Elite - and we who are fighting your proposal are the cure.

Dude... calm down! Swallow a chill-pill and please be less aggressive!
People these days get bored too quickly or get to rich too quickly in the game. Because of this they want something more. They expect more these days. And this 'more' is what we are talking about.

No, it's really not. You've not understood the game at all.

Yes it is. The online mode of course. Massive-Multiplayer-Online. This game is massive, it is multiplayer and it is online... So yeah, it a MMO. In space.
The fact that people don't get to see each other in this huge universe does not mean it's not a MMO in it's core.

The old Elite did not had multiplayer and the new ED does. So they added MMO to the game.

The galaxy is big, even the colonized space is huge... I personally would not see player owned outpost or small stations as a threat or an issue for non org players. The beauty of a 1:1 galaxy is that if a player does not want to have to see other players even within colonized space it is somehting very easy to do, nevermind Solo.

The thing is, as mentioned above, they could find a system that does just that. Enable people to build outposts or refueling stations out there, but do not let them become too intrusive. I think Frontier is capable enough to find something to do just that.

[...] I assume they are a small hideout for one or maybe a few people to store, refuel, repair & and rearm ships, I personally would not expect my own personal market, just my own hanger.

This. Just this. This would be enough for a lot of people.

Just to politely but publicly remind FD; Some 40,000 of your original ED players did not and still Do Not Like (in no particular order): [...]

I do not know how many players are out there, but be careful making statements for 40k people!! First of all, I think you're wrong about 100% of those 40k agree with you. Second, and the rest should just stay quiet over what they think is fun?



Beside all reactions, I still think clans could be a long-term valuable addition. I don't think I personally would spend as much time in the game as I would when I could connect to people. (not just the wing)

 

[Julissa Silver]

There are a lot of smart people out there. You could create something so that people can only create their own stations (steering away from the clan discussion) a few systems away from 'powers'. Why can't we have refueling outposts out there?

Any solution that fences off even one system is a solution that permanently damages the integrity of a game built around the concept of infinite FREEDOM. If you can find a solution that doesn't lead to players and guilds using it as a spring board to demand more concessions and benefits and controls over planets, stations or systems, then credit to you. My trick knee says that will never, ever happen, and that any attempt to claim 'bases', 'refueling outposts' or any other form of structure independent of existing powers, whether big or small, will fundamentally change the galaxy for the worse and give leverage the the concepts of player ownership and, following that, exclusivity based upon factions. Why should the (theoretical) solo player's game be limited because somebody with an ego decided they wanted to fence off system HIP 99193 for their own and make the stations there hostile/closed to anyone they don't specifically allow in?

So, no. Better to keep it free and allow people to influence and 'claim' ownership by declaring support for the powers that already exist. At least when (major or) minor factions spread they don't limit the freedom of the galaxy.

People these days get bored too quickly or get to rich too quickly in the game. Because of this they want something more. They expect more these days. And this 'more' is what we are talking about.

So you suggest that all development should be geared towards ADD content racers? No thank you, I think there are plenty of games out there that rush, rush, rush and end up flat on their faces because of a desperate attempt to appease those with a low attention span or a frantic need to race to the end rather than simply savouring the experience. Elite doesn't need to be all about the rush to "end game" simply because the "end game" is what players make of it, and not about parceling off land and titles to pilots - we already have the big (and minor) powers to engage in that feudal power struggle sim.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Work has been busy, I've got some breathing room again though, promised proposal about guild structures imminent sometime today.

 

[Raile]

Any solution that fences off even one system is a solution that permanently damages the integrity of a game built around the concept of infinite FREEDOM.

I hate to tell you this, but there are already systems that are fenced off. They're called permit systems and you need a permit to enter.

So much for your infinite freedom.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I hate to tell you this, but there are already systems that are fenced off. They're called permit systems and you need a permit to enter.

So much for your infinite freedom.

Permits can be obtained in-game for those systems that are not blocked off for future purposes by FD themselves. Players cannot make permit-only areas.

 

[mossfoot]

Permits can be obtained in-game for those systems that are not blocked off for future purposes by FD themselves. Players cannot make permit-only areas.

Not to mention if you're planning on having a Thargoid system in the future you can't exactly have people go there now, with nothing happening and nothing to see, only to suddenly have it alive an hopping next year if that content is added. It's blocked off for a good reason.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I hate to tell you this, but there are already systems that are fenced off. They're called permit systems and you need a permit to enter.

So much for your infinite freedom.

Anyone can choose to perform missions or in some other way gain the permit to such systems.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Dude... calm down! Swallow a chill-pill and please be less aggressive!
People these days get bored too quickly or get to rich too quickly in the game. Because of this they want something more. They expect more these days. And this 'more' is what we are talking about.

People get bored too quickly.

Since you wrote: "too", I'm guessing I need to interpret that as: too quickly. So, why would we cater for those people at the expense of those who don't?

Wouldn't a natural, lets facilitate those people to move along to a game more catering of their needs, while those who were on board from the get-go are heeded, be preferable?

This "more" takes away development time. This "more" will never be sufficient. Once one "more" is granted, they'll be howling for the next "more". With predictions that this game won't last unless this "more" is implemented stat.

Screw those people.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

People get bored too quickly.

Since you wrote: "too", I'm guessing I need to interpret that as: too quickly. So, why would we cater for those people at the expense of those who don't?

Wouldn't a natural, lets facilitate those people to move along to a game more catering of their needs, while those who were on board from the get-go are heeded, be preferable?

This "more" takes away development time. This "more" will never be sufficient. Once one "more" is granted, they'll be howling for the next "more". With predictions that this game won't last unless this "more" is implemented stat.

Screw those people.

You wrote the reply I was in the middle of writing this morning, but clicked Cancel because I just couldn't be bovvered

+rep, good sir.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Thanks. I've been drinking, so bovvered doesn't bovver me

 

[Julissa Silver]

People get bored too quickly.

Since you wrote: "too", I'm guessing I need to interpret that as: too quickly. So, why would we cater for those people at the expense of those who don't?

Wouldn't a natural, lets facilitate those people to move along to a game more catering of their needs, while those who were on board from the get-go are heeded, be preferable?

This "more" takes away development time. This "more" will never be sufficient. Once one "more" is granted, they'll be howling for the next "more". With predictions that this game won't last unless this "more" is implemented stat.

Screw those people.

If I could kiss you...

...well, okay, I probably wouldn't. But well said anyway.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If I could kiss you...

...well, okay, I probably wouldn't. But well said anyway.

The cheek is always available

Thanks!

 

[Herik]

I hate to tell you this, but there are already systems that are fenced off. They're called permit systems and you need a permit to enter.

So much for your infinite freedom.

And those permit systems were already mentioned shortly (after Kickstarter); and we all knew about that and FD's plans (during Kickstarter) to wall off a small portion of the galaxy for their own plans. I never had a problem with that; -just the inevitable problem of limitting the freedom of travel and trade for Open players with the use of blockades/multiple station ownership by players. Thankfully FD seems to be aware of this in their own way...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

And those permit systems were already mentioned shortly (after Kickstarter); and we all knew about that and FD's plans (during Kickstarter) to wall off a small portion of the galaxy for their own plans. I never had a problem with that; -just the inevitable problem of limitting the freedom of travel and trade for Open players with the use of blockades/multiple station ownership by players.

One fences the area of for future developments.

The other for: It's mine! All mine! Dance puppets!

 

[Vindris]

I really hope to see a clan or player created faction feature. And if a clan had its own bank or pool of money and they could save like 5 billion CR and buy their own outpost... that'd be so awesome!

 

[M00ka]

I really hope to see a clan or player created faction feature. And if a clan had its own bank or pool of money and they could save like 5 billion CR and buy their own outpost... that'd be so awesome!

What an innovative and totally out of the box idea. So surprised that not one post out of the 3,081 posts in this thread so far hasn't suggested this. Maybe we need an entire thread just about Player owned stations and Guilds!

Seriously, every fifth post in this thread has been a variation of the one you posted, unfortunately for you the other four of those five posts have given sensible, legitimate reasons why your scenario won't work in Elite.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I really hope to see a clan or player created faction feature. And if a clan had its own bank or pool of money and they could save like 5 billion CR and buy their own outpost... that'd be so awesome!

No thanks.