Why I regret joining the DDF and not a fan of Open Development...

[Hellhawk666]

You have pretty much nailed it there. The fact that people have been racing to the core, and the fastest time to Sag A* is less than 9 hours, underlines how far from exploration we are.

Indeed. Of all the design decisions that FD made, their approach to exploration is the most puzzling. I really can't imagine what made them decide to make it so mind-numbingly safe and easy.

I can see the reasons for pretty much every other decision they have made, but what possessed them to cripple exploration right from the start when it was obvious that this was a really bad idea? All that was needed was a severe implementation of wear and tear that actually had ramifications and exploration would have been at least dangerous (if still not particularly fascinating).

Stunningly dumb decision, and unlike some others, one that they cannot undo without a reset.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You have pretty much nailed it there. The fact that people have been racing to the core, and the fastest time to Sag A* is less than 9 hours, underlines how far from exploration we are. I wanted to be like Francis Drake (after whom my ship is named - or would be if they kept to that promise) or James Cook, boldly going where no one had been before. I don't even feel like Thomas Cook - at least he created excursion routes. Instead I feel like package holiday tourists with a "It's Sunday so this must be Athens" outlook.
.

indeed... I know I have said this before so appologies for banging the same old drum, but imo when the thargoids come they need to implant a virus in all our computer systems and wipe out all our exploration data imo. The lore behind this would be they are getting worried we are getting close to discovering their home systems so want to destroy our ability to find them.

Further more they need to take down the entire nav beacon system. I would say keep the beacons there, but remove their ability to communicate with each other so we need to fly to them and connect to their data.

IMO we should then be all essentially in the black. The galmap being empty and then when we do a scan with the trumpet the only distant systems we pick up are systems that are in our jump range. (sure have some start on our gal map because we can see them after all, but there would be no way to plot a jump to them till we got suitably close to be able to plot said jump

When we fly to another system IF it has a nav beakon, if we fly there and connect to it, and download data from it, it could then show us the location of any stations in the system.

Further more, I do not think it would be that much of a stretch to add into lore that tidal masses affect hyperpace, so to plot the most efficient jump you need as much data as possible, therefore selling fully scanned system data to universal cartographics would be worth more money as people would pay more for complete jump data which makes it more fuel efficient.

Personally i would go 1 step further and make it so you get a (tiny) amount of ship damage for jumping to a system not fully scanned (because your jump plots would be out a little bit).

Not a huge amount of damage, just enough to mean we cant just plot a route to the centre of the galaxy. It would force us to expand slowly, fully scanning as we go, then returning back and selling the data.

"jump data" - separate from economical data - would be sold in grid fashion, so I would not buy a single system of jump data but an entire 3D grid of an area. this would also then show me where was fully explored as well as the fringes so i would know where to go to to explore.

To keep the 1st explorers happy from the existing set up, you could keep their names on when they are found again if you wanted (though me, i would be tempted to wipe the job lot but to give every pilot in the game who had fount a unique system a 1 off explorer skin for a ship of their choice.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Indeed. Of all the design decisions that FD made, their approach to exploration is the most puzzling. I really can't imagine what made them decide to make it so mind-numbingly safe and easy.

That is surely obvious? Effort - the amount of effort they were prepared to put into exploration.

Remember most of what you might think of as exloring: ships, supercruise, stellar forge, system and galaxy maps, etc., etc., all had to be there for normal gameplay inside the bubble. So what did they actually add to give us 'exploration'? Well, a couple of scanners to worry about in outfitting, a nice noise when you finished a scan (which has since lost its 'ping'), the ability to see partially scanned systems, first found bonuses, credits for scanning, UC page for selling data, er, er, er, (I have probably missed some things, but none are much effort). They got to the point where they were going to release on their date, no matter the state of the game. They had a choice between no exploration at all (which would have been an embarrassing missed promise, and enough for even more folks to say it was not a releasable game, or a quick and dirty placeholder. They chose the latter. I think it would have been better for all of us if they had not released any exploration, and put the work into getting decent exploration into a later expansion. But they were never going to do that when they wanted to work on stuff to appeal to the pewpew, MMO and console audience. So, placeholder.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That is surely obvious? Effort - the amount of effort they were prepared to put into exploration.

Remember most of what you might think of as exloring: ships, supercruise, stellar forge, system and galaxy maps, etc., etc., all had to be there for normal gameplay inside the bubble. So what did they actually add to give us 'exploration'? Well, a couple of scanners to worry about in outfitting, a nice noise when you finished a scan (which has since lost its 'ping'), the ability to see partially scanned systems, first found bonuses, credits for scanning, UC page for selling data, er, er, er, (I have probably missed some things, but none are much effort). They got to the point where they were going to release on their date, no matter the state of the game. They had a choice between no exploration at all (which would have been an embarrassing missed promise, and enough for even more folks to say it was not a releasable game, or a quick and dirty placeholder. They chose the latter. I think it would have been better for all of us if they had not released any exploration, and put the work into getting decent exploration into a later expansion. But they were never going to do that when they wanted to work on stuff to appeal to the pewpew, MMO and console audience. So, placeholder.

In general I am fine with placeholder, and coming back to with improvements later on. The thing is Exploration is the 1 place where imo this cannot really work because once you have found something, it is found.

This is why imo ED could do with an exploration scrub and start again, and personally I think the Thargoids are the best (least jarring) way of doing it as at least a story could be made from it.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Yeah, I guess the point (for me at least) is I shouldn't be so critical of the way the game turned out. I was too close, if I hadn't had access to the DDF or the DDA I'd probably have been even more enthusiastic about the final product.

I would even extend your OP to being in the alpha test. The first time we got to fly our ships, or enter a spaceport, and so on, we wonderful. The alpha showed how much potential there was, and what a great game it was going to be. Then disappointment followed. Had I not been involved in the alpha and beta, and just bought the game last December, I'm sure I would be more enthusiastic about it than I am now.

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In general I am fine with placeholder, and coming back to with improvements later on. The thing is Exploration is the 1 place where imo this cannot really work because once you have found something, it is found.

This is why imo ED could do with an exploration scrub and start again, and personally I think the Thargoids are the best (least jarring) way of doing it as at least a story could be made from it.

Agreed. As do many of the 'big name' explorers, as we have seen from multiple posts elsewhere.

I would not have a problem with a wipe of first discovered tags, though I think they could manage a post-wipe scenario that still maintained those tags in some legacy form, whilst doing new tags for the new way of working.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

OP: There should be a saying in software development similar to "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy", perhaps "No development plan survives the first compile".

Just forget about it. The DDF served a purpose, but we are already long past release. Some of the stuff in the DDF is surely still on the cards, but probably not all of it. But there is plenty coming, and some of it is looking very nice.

And when you said Chaos, you mean Chaos: Battle of the Wizards? One of my all time favs as well.

 

[nicomak]

I wasnt a DDF member, but i did take the DDA rather seriously, probably a tad too optimistic about what would be in the game and when. But i wouldnt be too pessimistic just yet. The game is developping, and many aspect of if can still change or be improved upon. Even if that has to be later rather than sooner. I dont expect to see all of it getting into the game exaclty as it is, but it's not to be fully dismissed just yet imo. Anyway, i"m more concerned about what will actually be in the game, especially now that we do have one to play with and have "some" idea of what is coming "soon", rather than the "could-be" which might never be. I can understand however that as an active DDF member yould could be "attached" to those ideas not to let them go so easilly.

 

[Zieman]

In general I am fine with placeholder, and coming back to with improvements later on. The thing is Exploration is the 1 place where imo this cannot really work because once you have found something, it is found.

This is why imo ED could do with an exploration scrub and start again, and personally I think the Thargoids are the best (least jarring) way of doing it as at least a story could be made from it.

Agreed. As do many of the 'big name' explorers, as we have seen from multiple posts elsewhere.

I would not have a problem with a wipe of first discovered tags, though I think they could manage a post-wipe scenario that still maintained those tags in some legacy form, whilst doing new tags for the new way of working.

Agreed.

And I would extend the acceptance to many (if not most) of the much more numerous group of 'small name' explorers, me included.

 

[Theodrid]

indeed... I know I have said this before so appologies for banging the same old drum, but imo when the thargoids come they need to implant a virus in all our computer systems and wipe out all our exploration data imo. The lore behind this would be they are getting worried we are getting close to discovering their home systems so want to destroy our ability to find them.

Further more they need to take down the entire nav beacon system. I would say keep the beacons there, but remove their ability to communicate with each other so we need to fly to them and connect to their data.

IMO we should then be all essentially in the black. The galmap being empty and then when we do a scan with the trumpet the only distant systems we pick up are systems that are in our jump range. (sure have some start on our gal map because we can see them after all, but there would be no way to plot a jump to them till we got suitably close to be able to plot said jump

When we fly to another system IF it has a nav beakon, if we fly there and connect to it, and download data from it, it could then show us the location of any stations in the system.

Further more, I do not think it would be that much of a stretch to add into lore that tidal masses affect hyperpace, so to plot the most efficient jump you need as much data as possible, therefore selling fully scanned system data to universal cartographics would be worth more money as people would pay more for complete jump data which makes it more fuel efficient.

Personally i would go 1 step further and make it so you get a (tiny) amount of ship damage for jumping to a system not fully scanned (because your jump plots would be out a little bit).

Not a huge amount of damage, just enough to mean we cant just plot a route to the centre of the galaxy. It would force us to expand slowly, fully scanning as we go, then returning back and selling the data.

"jump data" - separate from economical data - would be sold in grid fashion, so I would not buy a single system of jump data but an entire 3D grid of an area. this would also then show me where was fully explored as well as the fringes so i would know where to go to to explore.

To keep the 1st explorers happy from the existing set up, you could keep their names on when they are found again if you wanted (though me, i would be tempted to wipe the job lot but to give every pilot in the game who had fount a unique system a 1 off explorer skin for a ship of their choice.

Can just about get behind all your suggestions there Mike, sadly, I think we both know it won't happen.

 

[Jason S]

To OP, so what you are saying is you paid 100 great british pounds above alpha to have your expectations rasied and then dashed.

I was not in DDF but I think I understand.

 

[Zak Gordon]

Yeah, I guess the point (for me at least) is I shouldn't be so critical of the way the game turned out. I was too close, if I hadn't had access to the DDF or the DDA I'd probably have been even more enthusiastic about the final product.

I don't know about that in truth. I was not part of the DDF, although i briefly have read some of the things that came out of it, and ED is still somewhere in the 50/50 ball park on being a dissapointment. Most of that comes entirely from where the Elite series has been at for the last 20 years or so, with the Frontier and FFE games (and later stuff like Oolite and FFED3D).

So to fully love ED for what it is (and not what it could/should be) you pretty much have to forget ever playing Frontier and FFE. If you just focus on the original game and compare that to ED, you find there is much more to like. And that was always the talk in the KS wasn't it, that ED was going to be an update of Elite, rather than Frontier and FFE? Of course with those games already out there and loved by hundreds of thousands of players of Elite it is just hard to forget that ED is not really a contiuation of the the Elite series as a whole (but will add elements from them all, over time) but a MP version of the original game with better graphics.

For many people, especially those that did not gell with Frontier of FFE (near newtonian flight is tricky to get a hang off) ED is a much more appriciated game it seems.

And let's not forget that this is a work in progress, with a long tail ahead and more stuff (many from the Frontier and FFE games) to be added. So for those of us who can't just forget Frontier and FFE and where they had taken Elite too, we just have to be very patient and cross our fingers for the next X years! It might get there

 

[JeffRyan]

I don't know about that in truth. I was not part of the DDF, although i briefly have read some of the things that came out of it, and ED is still somewhere in the 50/50 ball park on being a dissapointment. Most of that comes entirely from where the Elite series has been at for the last 20 years or so, with the Frontier and FFE games (and later stuff like Oolite and FFED3D).

So to fully love ED for what it is (and not what it could/should be) you pretty much have to forget ever playing Frontier and FFE. If you just focus on the original game and compare that to ED, you find there is much more to like. And that was always the talk in the KS wasn't it, that ED was going to be an update of Elite, rather than Frontier and FFE? Of course with those games already out there and loved by hundreds of thousands of players of Elite it is just hard to forget that ED is not really a contiuation of the the Elite series as a whole (but will add elements from them all, over time) but a MP version of the original game with better graphics.

For many people, especially those that did not gell with Frontier of FFE (near newtonian flight is tricky to get a hang off) ED is a much more appriciated game it seems.

And let's not forget that this is a work in progress, with a long tail ahead and more stuff (many from the Frontier and FFE games) to be added. So for those of us who can't just forget Frontier and FFE and where they had taken Elite too, we just have to be very patient and cross our fingers for the next X years! It might get there

I don't think that's fair... the game offers far far more in terms of what to do with respect to Frontier and First Encounters. Especially post-Horizons. The main missing things at this point being landing on planets and crew, but they were little features really, impressive at first but then forgotten about as you concentrated on upgrading your ship and making money.

Exploration was nowhere near as good as now and there's far more to do with signal sources and power play missions whether you like all the features or not. And mining is much better too.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

We are having new category of discussions - DDF blues

I think people expected too much too quickly (myself included). Considering amount work put in and still needed to finish even basic things, I think we all were a bit too optimistic about delivery. I would like to remind that at start FD wanted to keep it under wraps - and it seems for good reason.

It seems we also struggle to understand difference between 'what could have been' and 'what there is'.

I have played ED a lot in last weeks and I am having a blast. Yes, not everything is there yet, but overall I am having tons of fun.

 

[JeffRyan]

Game will see additions based on DDF. That's all I can say.

You know more than you're letting on Pecky?

 

[el_tel]

The easiest way of saving exploration for later improvement would have been to restrict everyone to the bubble of known space, just like in Beta. The explanation for this (in lore) could be that only the military posesses the equipment necessary to establish routes to new stars, and the rest of the galaxy could still be shown on the galactic map, just greyed out.

Then when FD was ready, allow the equipment to be bought.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

indeed... I know I have said this before so appologies for banging the same old drum, but imo when the thargoids come they need to implant a virus in all our computer systems and wipe out all our exploration data imo. The lore behind this would be they are getting worried we are getting close to discovering their home systems so want to destroy our ability to find them.

Further more they need to take down the entire nav beacon system. I would say keep the beacons there, but remove their ability to communicate with each other so we need to fly to them and connect to their data.

IMO we should then be all essentially in the black. The galmap being empty and then when we do a scan with the trumpet the only distant systems we pick up are systems that are in our jump range. (sure have some start on our gal map because we can see them after all, but there would be no way to plot a jump to them till we got suitably close to be able to plot said jump

When we fly to another system IF it has a nav beakon, if we fly there and connect to it, and download data from it, it could then show us the location of any stations in the system.

Further more, I do not think it would be that much of a stretch to add into lore that tidal masses affect hyperpace, so to plot the most efficient jump you need as much data as possible, therefore selling fully scanned system data to universal cartographics would be worth more money as people would pay more for complete jump data which makes it more fuel efficient.

Personally i would go 1 step further and make it so you get a (tiny) amount of ship damage for jumping to a system not fully scanned (because your jump plots would be out a little bit).

Not a huge amount of damage, just enough to mean we cant just plot a route to the centre of the galaxy. It would force us to expand slowly, fully scanning as we go, then returning back and selling the data.

"jump data" - separate from economical data - would be sold in grid fashion, so I would not buy a single system of jump data but an entire 3D grid of an area. this would also then show me where was fully explored as well as the fringes so i would know where to go to to explore.

To keep the 1st explorers happy from the existing set up, you could keep their names on when they are found again if you wanted (though me, i would be tempted to wipe the job lot but to give every pilot in the game who had fount a unique system a 1 off explorer skin for a ship of their choice.

Ohhhh yes.

"That's the way you do it!", as someone once said.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You know more than you're letting on Pecky?

No, but I know lot of actually confirmed things by FD coming from DDF topics - like scavenging or 2nd tier NPCs. I understand DDF blues - it made our imagination flowing and when turned out everything comes much slower than we expected - it is a bummer. I understand being less optimistic, but there's no point being depressed. It will come. Not all DDF will be there, some changes are quite fundamental - especially that exploration topic - but overall I expect more amazing gameplay to come from FD.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I feel your pain. I wasnt involved in it, but I did read a lot of it and there's some good ideas in there. It's really disappointing that most of it will never see the light of day.

 

[Raynn]

Frontier has not proven to listen to its customers; they would rather go for the easiest cosmetic things rather than adressing the real challenges.
Since the game has been release not a single release has made a real impact in term of gameplay depth and universe consistency.
We are now given a game within the game (cqc) and zero content. Even planetary landing is not going to bring anything else that landing, maybe having a ground base like any other space station and enjoy a buggy to "watch the sunrise" to quote Braben.
Like someone famous affiliated to the game has said: “So, they are not going to be making stuff for us. They have already got us. They have already made as much money as they can out of us.”, and they prove it with each expansion.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The easiest way of saving exploration for later improvement would have been to restrict everyone to the bubble of known space, just like in Beta. The explanation for this (in lore) could be that only the military posesses the equipment necessary to establish routes to new stars, and the rest of the galaxy could still be shown on the galactic map, just greyed out.

Then when FD was ready, allow the equipment to be bought.

I suspect exploration saw these changes because it would seriously limit exploration only to hardcore gamers, thus removing very considerable sales point for the game. There is theory that hyperspace path discovery will be enabled for discovering 'dark objects'.

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I feel your pain. I wasnt involved in it, but I did read a lot of it and there's some good ideas in there. It's really disappointing that most of it will never see the light of day.

Says who?