DDF and their "god-like powers"

[jabokai]

Actually they have no real obligation to do anything, kickstarter is a tool to kickstart "something" , do not get mistaken into thinking it's a list of everything that has to be done in that specific order under a "law", projects changes and so do goals, perks etc... , the only obligation is that the final product be released, before kickstarting anything on a project at any level, understand what you're getting into.

The T&Cs that applied when Frontier Kickstarted this said -

Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.

Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Quite clearly people are entitled to their rewards, or refunds. Understanding what you're getting into is good advice, the terms and conditions were there for just such reassurance. Obviously if FD went bust, it's a different story but they're quite happily going on developing the game, and earning more money, without satisfying their Kickstarter obligations.

 

[Marc Alexander]

Its understandable that people are upset, being both emotionally and financially invested. While its all very easy throwing around conspiracy theories and making personal attacks on staff members' characters, the reality is that FD have made decisions about the game and things have already moved on.

That is the point.

 

[jabokai]

That is the point.

No. The point is that fulfilling (or refunding) Kickstarter rewards should have been the number one priority. Once they were delivered/refunded, then it was time to move on.

 

[Evil]

The T&Cs that applied when Frontier Kickstarted this said -

Quite clearly people are entitled to their rewards, or refunds. Understanding what you're getting into is good advice, the terms and conditions were there for just such reassurance. Obviously if FD went bust, it's a different story but they're quite happily going on developing the game, and earning more money, without satisfying their Kickstarter obligations.

Yeah sure, players/backers are entitled to get the rewards they backed for, but there is no obligation under law to provide everything listed, FD could just say, nope, we aren't doing "god like powers", and yeah sure the players could try for a refund, but that's a huge step away from "I BACKED, YOU ARE OBLIGED TO GIVE ME GOD LIKE POWERS".

 

[jabokai]

Yeah sure, players/backers are entitled to get the rewards they backed for, but there is no obligation under law to provide everything listed, FD could just say, nope, we aren't doing "god like powers", and yeah sure the players could try for a refund, but that's a huge step away from "I BACKED, YOU ARE OBLIGED TO GIVE ME GOD LIKE POWERS".

Are you sure, or are you just being an internet lawyer? Surely the Terms and Conditions that FD signed up to when creating the Kickstarter are binding, otherwise it may as well have said "You get money from the suckers and you can do what you like cos they've got no recourse". Just because people have perhaps not pursued legal recourse (or maybe they have, I don't even know) it doesn't mean the T&Cs don't actually mean what they say. If they decide not to do godlike powers then, with regards to the T&Cs, they are obliged to refund those people, presumably down to an agreed level. For the integrity of the company if not for legal reasons (which should also apply IMHO).

 

[Marc Alexander]

No. The point is that fulfilling (or refunding) Kickstarter rewards should have been the number one priority. Once they were delivered/refunded, then it was time to move on.

That is your wish.

 

[jabokai]

That is your wish.

It's the point of Kickstarter.

 

[Evil]

Are you sure, or are you just being an internet lawyer? Surely the Terms and Conditions that FD signed up to when creating the Kickstarter are binding, otherwise it may as well have said "You get money from the suckers and you can do what you like cos they've got no recourse". Just because people have perhaps not pursued legal recourse (or maybe they have, I don't even know) it doesn't mean the T&Cs don't actually mean what they say. If they decide not to do godlike powers then, with regards to the T&Cs, they are obliged to refund those people, presumably down to an agreed level. For the integrity of the company if not for legal reasons (which should also apply IMHO).

Yeah sure they are obliged to give them refunds if they cant or do not want to meet the backer rewards, they are however not obliged to give them "god like powers", thats the point im making, FD can change what ever they like whenever they like, as long as they are still releasing a product.

 

[Taimaru]

I have been reading the threads and posts about DDF promises being broken with interest.

I wasn't part of the DDF as I bought the game a couple of days before Gamma, so my question here is more out of curiosity.

Can someone please link to the post(s) that promised that all of the features decided on in the DDF (e.g. God-like powers) would be available on release date (December 16th 2014) as I can't seem to find it?

When I researched and bought the game I was under the impression that development of the game would continue past release date and not all features would be available in version 1.0 of the game. Therefore I am trying to get my head around the "broken promises" comments considering Frontier haven't finished developing Elite: Dangerous yet.

Thanks

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I think next time there is an "Open Session" with David Braben (here or at one of the gaming con's) one of the DDF needs to pipe up and ask the question in front of everyone. Put him on the spot, see if he stumbles or not. We were PROMISED ongoing interaction throughout the life of Elite. What we get is...
http://www.nicerweb.com/sketches/sounds/Arthropoda/delicate_meadow_katydid.wav

Pretty sure someone asks it every AMA but, surprise surprise, it's simply ignored.

To be fair, I DID get DBOBE to answer the question on the powerplay AMA. HE said, very clearly, that they were still discussing it. He did not say that thet near god-likes were coming, nor that they were not coming. He kicked the can down the road.

Yeah sure they are obliged to give them refunds if they cant or do not want to meet the backer rewards, they are however not obliged to give them "god like powers", thats the point im making, FD can change what ever they like whenever they like, as long as they are still releasing a product.

Actually, he is obliged to give them the rewards described. They do not have to call them 'near god-like powers', but can call them Fred if they like. It's the reward that matters.

Otherwise, on your wording, I could run a kickstarter for a personal flying car, and deliver a pogo stick, since I would still be releasing a product.

 

[jabokai]

Yeah sure they are obliged to give them refunds if they cant or do not want to meet the backer rewards, they are however not obliged to give them "god like powers", thats the point im making, FD can change what ever they like whenever they like, as long as they are still releasing a product.

Ah, fair enough. I was under the impression you were arguing they had no obligations! We agree then - they are obliged to do one or the other. To be fair, If I were them, it's easier to give a refund. I don't want any more money back from them but people might. Maybe they could offer a lifetime free in game goods voucher, in lieu of god powers/refund - so they could get all the paint jobs for free - for example. The sad fact is they're offering nothing. The only mention by them was something to do with Powerplay and the vast majority of people don't even play it!

 

[Nagual]

Software is a really weird industry. It's the only one that actively produces unfinished products and sells them a full retail price. Then the same company gets applauded for fixing bugs or adding missing content. Not only that but somewhere along the line customers have started to defend that practice. That is the insane thing about it. Broken promises or dreams out stripping skill and experience are not the end of the world, but they do say a lot about the company. Liars, incompetent, or nieve would seem to be the choice descriptions for a company like that.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Ah, fair enough. I was under the impression you were arguing they had no obligations! We agree then - they are obliged to do one or the other. To be fair, If I were them, it's easier to give a refund. I don't want any more money back from them but people might. Maybe they could offer a lifetime free in game goods voucher, in lieu of god powers/refund - so they could get all the paint jobs for free - for example. The sad fact is they're offering nothing. The only mention by them was something to do with Powerplay and the vast majority of people don't even play it!

It is not only easier to do a refund, but may well be much cheaper. FD may already have tools for FD folks to do the near god-likes, in which case giving access to those tools to DDF members may be relatively cheap. But if they have not, then writing and testing the tools is likely to cost more than the money they sucked in by making the promise.

- - - Updated - - -

I have been reading the threads and posts about DDF promises being broken with interest.

I wasn't part of the DDF as I bought the game a couple of days before Gamma, so my question here is more out of curiosity.

Can someone please link to the post(s) that promised that all of the features decided on in the DDF (e.g. God-like powers) would be available on release date (December 16th 2014) as I can't seem to find it?

When I researched and bought the game I was under the impression that development of the game would continue past release date and not all features would be available in version 1.0 of the game. Therefore I am trying to get my head around the "broken promises" comments considering Frontier haven't finished developing Elite: Dangerous yet.

Thanks

As far as I can recall, the only date FD quoted was the release date for the game (March 2014) which they missed, but not as badly as SC have missed theirs. Personally, I don't see that as a problem, just an indication that they had not fully planned what they were getting into.

So, yes, white knights and corporate lawyers can still be arguing in 7 years time that there are no broken promises, because they are going to deliver against them, they have just not done so yet. Feel free to find that acceptable.

 

[JeffRyan]

It is not only easier to do a refund, but may well be much cheaper. FD may already have tools for FD folks to do the near god-likes, in which case giving access to those tools to DDF members may be relatively cheap. But if they have not, then writing and testing the tools is likely to cost more than the money they sucked in by making the promise.

- - - Updated - - -



As far as I can recall, the only date FD quoted was the release date for the game (March 2014) which they missed, but not as badly as SC have missed theirs. Personally, I don't see that as a problem, just an indication that they had not fully planned what they were getting into.

So, yes, white knights and corporate lawyers can still be arguing in 7 years time that there are no broken promises, because they are going to deliver against them, they have just not done so yet. Feel free to find that acceptable.

I've just accepted that we'll get something eventually (as per the now four month old thread we have open) but that it probably won't live up to that promise. I have the suspicion there's a disconnect between the DDF and FD now and what Kerrash said about how he thinks the DDF ultmately failed possibly reflects the feeling FD have (who don't get why we didn't pick up the thrown bone 8 months ago).

 

[Taimaru]

As far as I can recall, the only date FD quoted was the release date for the game (March 2014) which they missed, but not as badly as SC have missed theirs. Personally, I don't see that as a problem, just an indication that they had not fully planned what they were getting into.

So, yes, white knights and corporate lawyers can still be arguing in 7 years time that there are no broken promises, because they are going to deliver against them, they have just not done so yet. Feel free to find that acceptable.

So there was no promised dates for all of the features - interesting...

I think in 7 years one could argue that promises were broken if many of the features don't get implemented, but I still think it is too early to say that now, hence why I can't get my head around the "broken promises" comments.

To put it into perspective:-

• Fallout 4 has been in development since 2011 - 4 years - and they had code and assets they could use from the previous Fallout games - and it will be released in November this year assuming it isn't delayed at the last minute.

• Star Citizen has been in development (ignoring any tech demo) since the kickstarter ended on 19th November 2012 - 2 years 10 months (approx) ago and there isn't much you can do in it currently (I have backed it) and there still isn't any solid release date.

• Elite: Dangerous has been in development (ignoring the initial tech demo) since the kickstarter ended on 5th January 2013 - 2 years 8 months (approx) ago and we have a fully playable and enjoyable game albeit with some (many?) features people want missing.

Personally I am actually impressed with what Frontier have given us in just 2 years 8 months, especially without the huge funding by a big publisher. I do want more in the game, obviously, but so far I have had immense enjoyment out of Elite: Dangerous and continue to do so.

Anyway, back to reading and trying to understand the "broken promises"...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

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And here is the nub, expectations and communications. All these posts show people had certain expectations. Were these expectations correct? Looking back, seems like the answer is no. Whose fault is it? I'd have a guess its partially FDs fault for not communicating things well (and perhaps they failed to manage their own expectations as well). And also probably some part the fault of the backers and players who somehow believed that FD could implement everything in the DDF and would do so before release. Bonus points for people who seem to think just because something isn't implemented yet it will never be implemented.

But my point wasn't about your counter points largely (apart from Jack's), it was just about giving it a rest. We can barely have a discussion thread even months later without someone bringing up the DDF. Its time to let it go.

Jack - regarding your point about an apology, its a tricky one. Canada has a law that says issuing an apology isn't an admission of guilt. Unfortunately, in many countries, apologizing is seen as an admission of guilt. If FD ever said "Sorry for not implementing everything in the DDF" that would allow people with an axe to grind to use it against them.

So, don't ever expect to see an apology for this. If they ever did, i'd eat a sock.

 

[JeffRyan]

And here is the nub, expectations and communications. All these posts show people had certain expectations. Were these expectations correct? Looking back, seems like the answer is no. Whose fault is it? I'd have a guess its partially FDs fault for not communicating things well (and perhaps they failed to manage their own expectations as well). And also probably some part the fault of the backers and players who somehow believed that FD could implement everything in the DDF and would do so before release. Bonus points for people who seem to think just because something isn't implemented yet it will never be implemented.

But my point wasn't about your counter points largely (apart from Jack's), it was just about giving it a rest. We can barely have a discussion thread even months later without someone bringing up the DDF. Its time to let it go.

Jack - regarding your point about an apology, its a tricky one. Canada has a law that says issuing an apology isn't an admission of guilt. Unfortunately, in many countries, apologizing is seen as an admission of guilt. If FD ever said "Sorry for not implementing everything in the DDF" that would allow people with an axe to grind to use it against them.

So, don't ever expect to see an apology for this. If they ever did, i'd eat a sock.

This thread isn't about not implementing everything in the DDF. It's about breaking a promise to the highest level backers who got this game funded.

 

[Soliluna]

So there was no promised dates for all of the features - interesting...

I think in 7 years one could argue that promises were broken if many of the features don't get implemented, but I still think it is too early to say that now, hence why I can't get my head around the "broken promises" comments.

To put it into perspective:-

• Fallout 4 has been in development since 2011 - 4 years - and they had code and assets they could use from the previous Fallout games - and it will be released in November this year assuming it isn't delayed at the last minute.

• Star Citizen has been in development (ignoring any tech demo) since the kickstarter ended on 19th November 2012 - 2 years 10 months (approx) ago and there isn't much you can do in it currently (I have backed it) and there still isn't any solid release date.

• Elite: Dangerous has been in development (ignoring the initial tech demo) since the kickstarter ended on 5th January 2013 - 2 years 8 months (approx) ago and we have a fully playable and enjoyable game albeit with some (many?) features people want missing.

Personally I am actually impressed with what Frontier have given us in just 2 years 8 months, especially without the huge funding by a big publisher. I do want more in the game, obviously, but so far I have had immense enjoyment out of Elite: Dangerous and continue to do so.

Anyway, back to reading and trying to understand the "broken promises"...

That's not a decent perspective. Your "in development" does not factor in style, size of studio, experience in studio, number of staff working in each area (i.e. pm, audio, concept, graphics, designers, programming, storyline etc etc). Does not factor in the engine tech (I am certain the tech in ED has a lot of calculations that the typical pipeline in Bethesda's would choke and die if it attempted to compute).

So while I am also impressed with what FDEV have created - there is no real comparison that can be made because FDEV are kinda the first to do it with this level of accuracy, with this scope.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

This thread isn't about not implementing everything in the DDF. It's about breaking a promise to the highest level backers who got this game funded.

I thought we had diverted onto other issues, but as i recall, the OP was something about backers getting god like powers... which as i understood, was never acceptable to anyone, backers included. So not sure what promise was broken and to whom.

 

[jabokai]

was never acceptable to anyone

Not sure where you got that idea as quite a few people have stated that is exactly why they pledged up to that level. Arguments about whether other people think it is a good idea or not aside, FD did offer it and people did upgrade for it.