DDF and their "god-like powers"

[AnnuverScotinExile]

So there was no promised dates for all of the features - interesting...

I think in 7 years one could argue that promises were broken if many of the features don't get implemented, but I still think it is too early to say that now, hence why I can't get my head around the "broken promises" comments.

To put it into perspective:-

• Fallout 4 has been in development since 2011 - 4 years - and they had code and assets they could use from the previous Fallout games - and it will be released in November this year assuming it isn't delayed at the last minute.

• Star Citizen has been in development (ignoring any tech demo) since the kickstarter ended on 19th November 2012 - 2 years 10 months (approx) ago and there isn't much you can do in it currently (I have backed it) and there still isn't any solid release date.

• Elite: Dangerous has been in development (ignoring the initial tech demo) since the kickstarter ended on 5th January 2013 - 2 years 8 months (approx) ago and we have a fully playable and enjoyable game albeit with some (many?) features people want missing.

Personally I am actually impressed with what Frontier have given us in just 2 years 8 months, especially without the huge funding by a big publisher. I do want more in the game, obviously, but so far I have had immense enjoyment out of Elite: Dangerous and continue to do so.

Anyway, back to reading and trying to understand the "broken promises"...

Your perspectives are irrelevant. A game that is still in development and has not been released has not broken any content promises, just, perhaps, timetable promises.

This does, as many things do on this forum, come down to expectations, and how they are set. FD make no date promises until they are close enough that they know they are not going to miss them. They are also making no content promises until close enough. They had to make content promises in the kickstarter, but attached no dates to them. They made comments during the kickstarter that made it clear that there would be additional content, some free, some paid, after the game was released. No real detail on what might be 'on release' and what might be 'later', though there were indications of some of the paid expansions (landings and walkies, specifically).

Had FD said 'the content on release will be very bare bones, and some of you may think it is not ready to come out of beta, but we will add some of that stuff in later', they would have been honest, but the kickstarter would probably have failed. So they said nothing. So people were left to make their own expectations. Even one of the white knights who is now saying that we have what FD said we would have, was telling us all during the beta and gamma that a 'big drop full of new content' was coming. I doubt if anyone really expected it to be quite as content free as it was, at least until it got so close to the release date that it became obvious.

So, communication and expectation issues. Both sides at least somewhat to blame.

None of which excuses making a promise intended to suck people into a particular pledge level, and then not delivering on that promise. And, yes, we can argue about how long it takes for the promise to be broken, rather than just not there yet. My point of view tends to that of Jabokai: when you have made explicit promises, you do those first. You certainly do not do great lumps of functionality that you did not mention in the kickstarter before dealing with those promises.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought we had diverted onto other issues, but as i recall, the OP was something about backers getting god like powers... which as i understood, was never acceptable to anyone, backers included. So not sure what promise was broken and to whom.

Complete nonsense. You may think that those powers were never acceptable, but you certainly do not speak for me, or for any other backers.

 

[Hellhawk666]

I've just accepted that we'll get something eventually (as per the now four month old thread we have open) but that it probably won't live up to that promise. I have the suspicion there's a disconnect between the DDF and FD now and what Kerrash said about how he thinks the DDF ultmately failed possibly reflects the feeling FD have (who don't get why we didn't pick up the thrown bone 8 months ago).

Unfortunately I believe this is accurate, although if anything I'm more pessimistic. I seriously doubt there will ever be any sort of content or perk that remotely resembles the statements during the Kickstarter. FD have most likely painted themselves into a corner with this and what once sounded like a good way to encourage backers to DDF level (and I don't think this was done with dishonest intent) has with time become a problem to implement in any satisfactory way.

There is an unmistakable disconnect between the DDF and FD now, but I don't accept that this is just down to us. Respect has to flow both ways and if they don't get why the "thrown bone" was rejected that's due to their lack of engagement - not ours.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

And here is the nub, expectations and communications. All these posts show people had certain expectations. Were these expectations correct? Looking back, seems like the answer is no.

Er, spectacularly wrong again. All of those posts you quoted were responding to you trying to drag the conversation away from its point: the lack of the promised God-likes. People have expectations there, unquestionably. And they have expectations because FD made an explicit promise, together with examples of the meaning of that promise. Looking back those expectations are still as correct as they ever were.

There are subjects that white knights should not venture near, because they just look silly as FD are so clearly in the wrong. Offlinegate was one of those. This is another.

 

[deusx_ophc]

Did Kerrash pay to be a member of the DDF during KS? If memory serves the answer to that is no and in light of this perhaps he should mind his own business because his continued white knighting for Braben is nauseating to witness.

Then your memory is not as good as you think

i lol'ed ^^

 

[Mack]

Well, I'm still waiting for my God Like powers, however, what do I expect I may get, the ability to turn Water Cargo in to Luxury Wine (well it is a god like power!)

 

[xyphic]

I didn't pledge to the DDF level because of the promise of god-like powers, but it was certainly a contributing factor in my decision. I was excited to be able to help shape the next instalment in one of my favourite gaming franchises, and excited to be able to contribute once the game had released. I'm happy with the work we did in the DDF; the proposals that came out were better than the ones that went in. I can't help but be slightly disappointed that the game wasn't as close to the DDF as I'd have liked, but I understand that development time and funding is limited and Frontier have to try to balance what's right for their company while not forgetting their backers.

It's this last point that causes me disappointment. It feels like they *have* forgotten their backers, and the lack of any progress on god-like powers is a good case in point. The last communication that we had from Frontier in the DDF was over two months ago, and that was to tell us that they hadn't forgotten about us. Right now, that feels like lip service at best, and if they really *haven't* forgotten about us, they must have some idea about what those god-like powers might be. I honestly don't see why they can't afford a day of Sandro's time to list some ideas and get feedback on them. That at least would feel like progress. If, as many suspect, they're struggling to come up with something meaningful, state as much and perhaps we can contribute.

 

[Alex Merion-Turner]

There are no Kickstarter rewards that mention, let alone promise, 'God-like Powers'.

The DDF reward only says: "Be a design decision forum member, plus all rewards above."

So those talking about Kickstarter terms, and rewards. and delivery of them, and refunds are living in some weird dream world where their wild fantasies about who owes them what seem to be consuming their every thought, resulting in excessive nerdrage.

Not to mention simply being wrong.

So very wrong.

Wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day with the wind blowing in a wrong direction.

 

[deusx_ophc]

There are no Kickstarter rewards that mention, let alone promise, 'God-like Powers'.

The DDF reward only says: "Be a design decision forum member, plus all rewards above."

So those talking about Kickstarter terms, and rewards. and delivery of them, and refunds are living in some weird dream world where their wild fantasies about who owes them what seem to be consuming their every thought, resulting in excessive nerdrage.

Not to mention simply being wrong.

So very wrong.

Wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day with the wind blowing in a wrong direction.

but but but BRABEN SAID ..... ^^

and yeah, no need for "god like powers" other than what i have already recieved from FDEV by being allowed to help shaping our galaxy by contributing via DDF

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not sure where you got that idea as quite a few people have stated that is exactly why they pledged up to that level. Arguments about whether other people think it is a good idea or not aside, FD did offer it and people did upgrade for it.

Well, i must admit, i didn't read every post made, but i did see a few posts from backers saying they never wanted god like powers. Must admit as well, i didn't see this (if it was there) on the kickstarter page when i looked way back. I saw things like naming planets and systems and NPCs, t-shirts, memorabilia, boxes copies, invites etc. Not saying it wasn't there, but it certainly wasn't something that caught my eye.

 

[xyphic]

So those talking about Kickstarter terms, and rewards. and delivery of them, and refunds are living in some weird dream world where their wild fantasies about who owes them what seem to be consuming their every thought, resulting in excessive nerdrage.

From Project Update #33:

Many people have asked (via Reddit and elsewhere) whether the design discussion forum will continue post-release.

The people on the DDF together with people from Frontier will have near god-like powers post-release. They will have access to live stats for the galaxy on rates of piracy, locations for player death, trade activity and so-on. They will decide how the galaxy will evolve. They will decide when famine (or plague) might arrive in a particular system. If, for example piracy is unusually high for a sustained period in a particular system how should the galaxy respond? Should an adjacent system send warships? Should it decay into anarchy and any government collapse? When we create a new ship type or variant How should we introduce it? How do we close down a particular game exploit - or do we? As you can see, the decisions will not stop at release.

Pretty sure this wasn't the first mention of the perk, and it came before the Kickstarter completed. It was from an official communication from Frontier, so I'm sure would be good evidence in any small-claims action for a refund. I don't think there are many really considering that line of action, but it *does* cast a negative light on the company when something was clearly promised and clearly wasn't delivered.

 

[jabokai]

There are no Kickstarter rewards that mention, let alone promise, 'God-like Powers'.

The DDF reward only says: "Be a design decision forum member, plus all rewards above."

So those talking about Kickstarter terms, and rewards. and delivery of them, and refunds are living in some weird dream world where their wild fantasies about who owes them what seem to be consuming their every thought, resulting in excessive nerdrage.

Not to mention simply being wrong.

So very wrong.

Wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day with the wind blowing in a wrong direction.

That's not the way it works,

The rewards are bullet points, expanded upon in the main body of the campaign and it's updates. If you take it to your stupid extreme all they had to do was create a forum called "Design Decision Forum", give people access, and never even post in it, or visit it for that matter, themselves.

Get a grip.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Er, spectacularly wrong again. All of those posts you quoted were responding to you trying to drag the conversation away from its point: the lack of the promised God-likes. People have expectations there, unquestionably. And they have expectations because FD made an explicit promise, together with examples of the meaning of that promise. Looking back those expectations are still as correct as they ever were.

There are subjects that white knights should not venture near, because they just look silly as FD are so clearly in the wrong. Offlinegate was one of those. This is another.

My statement is wrong because I addressed the a different topic? Erm ok... so what you are saying, that my statement that people's expectations were not met is wrong. So you are saying people's expectations were met? Then why are some people getting upset with this?

So, you threw out white knight (i prefer fanboy myself). Can i call you a whiner or a hater? I hope not, because that against forum rules here. So, please, drop the labels, because it doesn't support your point in any way and could lead to moderator action against you.

Instead, please point out what is factually wrong with the sentence you quoted instead of trying to insult me.

 

[Kerrash]

Stop the personal attacks or the thread will be closed.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

From Project Update #33:


Pretty sure this wasn't the first mention of the perk, and it came before the Kickstarter completed. It was from an official communication from Frontier, so I'm sure would be good evidence in any small-claims action for a refund. I don't think there are many really considering that line of action, but it *does* cast a negative light on the company when something was clearly promised and clearly wasn't delivered.

Thank you for providing the direct link. I think we can now lay to rest the question of whether FD promised something along the lines. Seems like a pretty direct statement.

Now, since FD haven't delivered on this, its clear they have changed their mind. Well, you are free, moving forward, to vote with your money. Or you can perhaps start a lawsuit if you feel particularly wronged by this.

Or, and its just a thought, which i mentioned earlier, just let it go.

At the end of the day, sitting around complaining about it isn't going to change anything. 13 pages and not a single dev comment, and if they did, i'd bet decent money it would be something along the lines of "we looked at it, and decided against it for reasons".

 

[Ian Phillips]

Ninja'd!

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I didn't pledge to the DDF level because of the promise of god-like powers, but it was certainly a contributing factor in my decision. I was excited to be able to help shape the next instalment in one of my favourite gaming franchises, and excited to be able to contribute once the game had released. I'm happy with the work we did in the DDF; the proposals that came out were better than the ones that went in. I can't help but be slightly disappointed that the game wasn't as close to the DDF as I'd have liked, but I understand that development time and funding is limited and Frontier have to try to balance what's right for their company while not forgetting their backers.

It's this last point that causes me disappointment. It feels like they *have* forgotten their backers, and the lack of any progress on god-like powers is a good case in point. The last communication that we had from Frontier in the DDF was over two months ago, and that was to tell us that they hadn't forgotten about us. Right now, that feels like lip service at best, and if they really *haven't* forgotten about us, they must have some idea about what those god-like powers might be. I honestly don't see why they can't afford a day of Sandro's time to list some ideas and get feedback on them. That at least would feel like progress. If, as many suspect, they're struggling to come up with something meaningful, state as much and perhaps we can contribute.

Funnily enough, the God like powers was on the list of 'upcoming DDF topics' (even with a date, IIRC) when they just stopped doing DDF topics. So once upon a time, they did feel that asking the DDF about what the "near God-like powers" might be was a good idea.

There are lots of folks on the DDF. Most of them pledged before the 'near God-like' promise, or pledged to a higher level and got the DDF thrown in. Many have said that they don't want those powers, and that is certainly fine. I can point to things in the game that I don't want, but have no problem with them being there, because other people want them. Many may even think that the God-likes were something that should never have been promised (and in retrospect, FD are probably on that list). However, the fact remains that DBOBE, on a kickstarer update that was obviously intended to tempt people to join the DDF, made the promise. The immediate effect of that was a big jump that day in people pledging to the DDF level, including me. I don't know the exact number, and the evidence no longer exists on the kickstarter site (unless someone has daily timestamps of the number of pledgere at each level), but from memory, it was about a third of the people (around 120 or so). It seems fair to assume that those pledgers pledged because of the promise. That is why it is important to honour the promise, in some manner.

 

[JeffRyan]

There are no Kickstarter rewards that mention, let alone promise, 'God-like Powers'.

The DDF reward only says: "Be a design decision forum member, plus all rewards above."

So those talking about Kickstarter terms, and rewards. and delivery of them, and refunds are living in some weird dream world where their wild fantasies about who owes them what seem to be consuming their every thought, resulting in excessive nerdrage.

Not to mention simply being wrong.

So very wrong.

Wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day with the wind blowing in a wrong direction.

I do object to this post, because whilst not in the main points it was elaborated on and promised later on. So this post is more objectionable than being the groom at a shotgun wedding with Margaret Thatcher's Zombie as the bride.

 

[jabokai]

At the end of the day, sitting around complaining about it isn't going to change anything.

What, you mean like the stramash about offline mode being removed and no refunds offered didn't achieve anything?

 

[Cosmos]

No. The point is that fulfilling (or refunding) Kickstarter rewards should have been the number one priority. Once they were delivered/refunded, then it was time to move on.

Indeed, I think on this issue it could have been dealt with in a fair way. If they had said, hey we can't make this work or it will break things and in compensation we propose this, or will refund such and such amount and actually engage the people affected, perhaps even asking what we thought would be a fair settlement, the matter could have been put to bed long ago.

Instead what have we had, despite countless polite requests? Silence and a half baked idea about the DDF managing galnet news.

- - - Updated - - -

Stop the personal attacks or the thread will be closed.

Well that would be one way of dealing with the issue.

 

[Carsten]

Does a kickstarter project have to be a product? Or can it be say a collection of cash for a class action lawsuit

I am sure that would get some attention in FD.

I an only kidding of course but same as many others I would love to hear from FD on the matter.