Construction paper and crayons are third party tools. Scissors are Right Out!
NO to "third party tools" for ED
- Thread starter Cmdr Eagleboy
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
hey you are back!.... does this mean your tool will be getting updated?
I was horrified the other day when I thought for a moment my notes could be lost to the void!
Yes, wandering totally off-topic into adding depth and engagement... please stop immediately!
good point!.
I'm an experiential gamer, that is I game to get experiences that I don't get in real life. I will never truly know the experience of loading up a ship with goods, and risk it all on a leap into the void based on incomplete information. But Elite is a good facsimile of that experience.
That is one of many reasons I dislike hacks, mods, and third party programs designed to make a game easier. Those things make games shallower than their development game intended. Players using them don't have decisions to weigh: do you risk it all on bringing a single commodity, or do you hedge your bets by bringing a mix. They don't hold their breaths until the commodity screen comes up: did I guess right and score big? Or did I lose money this trip? Or do I sigh at a missed opportunity, because I played it safe?
The other problem is that this game was originally designed to reflect the lore that information travels at the speed of ships, so info should be hours or days old. That aesthetic has fallen to the wayside due to data mining. C'est la vie.
That is one of many reasons I dislike hacks, mods, and third party programs designed to make a game easier. Those things make games shallower than their development game intended. Players using them don't have decisions to weigh: do you risk it all on bringing a single commodity, or do you hedge your bets by bringing a mix. They don't hold their breaths until the commodity screen comes up: did I guess right and score big? Or did I lose money this trip? Or do I sigh at a missed opportunity, because I played it safe?
The other problem is that this game was originally designed to reflect the lore that information travels at the speed of ships, so info should be hours or days old. That aesthetic has fallen to the wayside due to data mining. C'est la vie.
The word you are looking for is "Traveller". And the timeframe is weeks or months, there. Try selling that, nowadays, for an online game.
Yeah, no talking to other traders, no lip-sync, gestures, hand movements or sign language, don't even use your eyes, look at the wall or something, and no math calculations allowed, if you press trading buttons you're a cheater, and most of all do not use input devices, let alone using a computer, don't use one full stop, not even an abacus....
Fair enough, but successful traders don't rely on guesswork and "leaping" about at random, they rely on relevant information.
Trading is already rather shallow, not much any 3rd party tools can do to make that any worse.
I understand that this takes away from the "mystique" or awe of a game for you.
However, many people like a more purpose, knowledge and progression based approach to their gaming....that's THEIR way to enjoy themselves.
And if the first party denies them the tools for that, third parties will provide them.....i'm glad they do.
I can accept that information travels at the speed of ships. That's what the world was like before the mid 19th century. So information was transmitted in packet boats. The land equivalent was things like the Pony Express.
I can't believe that in the 34th century empires like the Federation, Empire and Alliance wouldn't have a similar system of regular transmission of mail etc between populated systems. So I view EDDN and the data-sharing tools that use its data as the 34th century version of the packet trade. For more out-of-the-way ports the data on EDDN can be incomplete and sometimes weeks or months old, which seems right to me too.
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The word you are looking for is "Traveller". And the timeframe is weeks or months, there. Try selling that, nowadays, for an online game.
It would be cool if that standard were somehow enforceable, but as you both suggest, that cannot happen. FD doesn't even hold themselves to that standard with Galnet. That hits all starports instantly.
Welcome to the J-4 X-Boat system.
They do now, but back during the Age of Sail fortunes were made and lost by risking everything on the unknown. That was the original aesthetic of Elite: The Age of Sail in space.
Today traders never transport anything. They simply manipulate the system, creating illusionary scarcity to drive the price of commodities up, then get out before the bubble they created good. The people who actually transport anything simply haul freight for the pittance their corporate employers are willing to play them.
The shallowness of the economy is largely, IMNSHO, the results of 3rd party trading tools early in beta. Early adopters quickly flattened the best trade routes, and they never bounced back because that is what a realistic market with up to date information does: supply and demand converge, removing the potential for profit along the way.
Although I must admit the results were probably inevitable, they just hastened the process. In the end, the shallowness of trading is the result of the fact that everyone wants to haul profitable goods, while nobody wants to haul the raw materials to make those goods. As a result, depth got sacrificed for fun (for a given value of fun).
It doesn't at all, primarily because the best part of the game is traveling from point A to point B for me. Missions, trading, exploration, Power Play, combat... All of that is simply an excuse to keep me moving to new places to see, new situations to explore. Every second spent researching or recording trade information is a second Im not flying. So I wing it, and celebrate my success, mourn my failure, or lament lost opportunities at my destination.
It doesn't change my opinion that the shallowness of trading is, in my opinion, largely self inflicted by people letting computers to make their decisions for them.
Oh, I know that it's inevitable in an online game, just like gold farmers, aim bots, macro programs, and all the other ways players "enjoy" themselves is inevitable once a game goes online like this one has. C'est la vie.
I find it odd that a ship that can navigate hyperspace routes can't store market data.
I think it's strange that I can voice or chat comm with a player anywhere in the galaxy, but I can't remotely check prices.
I certainly don't want routes planned for me. That should be where the risk is - should I cut my trip short by 10 jumps even though I have to go through hostile space, or do I take the longer and safer route? I find it kills immersion that in a game where I can receive up to date Galnet News and Powerplay Standings no matter where I am, I can't get the price of Coffee two jumps away. It really doesn't make much sense.
There would be no need for 3rd party tools if the game would provide this kind of information.
I think it's strange that I can voice or chat comm with a player anywhere in the galaxy, but I can't remotely check prices.
I certainly don't want routes planned for me. That should be where the risk is - should I cut my trip short by 10 jumps even though I have to go through hostile space, or do I take the longer and safer route? I find it kills immersion that in a game where I can receive up to date Galnet News and Powerplay Standings no matter where I am, I can't get the price of Coffee two jumps away. It really doesn't make much sense.
There would be no need for 3rd party tools if the game would provide this kind of information.
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There are a multitude of ways to rework trading to make it more engaging and to reduce the relevance of third party tools. Designing a system such that it is easily "flattened" by third party tools is poor design. Are there higher priorities, apparently, but the issue here isn't that third party tools ruined trading in elite dangerous.
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You can go on about the age of the sail all you want, that's a suspension of disbelief I have a really hard time making, and I'm all for suspension of disbelief, we have FTL, FTL comms, FTL news, FTL e-sports from 50,000Ly away, we have a Universal Cartographics business that buys and controls all exploration data and yet no entity in the elite galaxy has seen the business opportunity of providing up to date trade data? Even if you had to go do it manually with sidewinders they could form an immensely profitable corporation that would put most others in the game to shame, simply by distributing near-real time trade data for a price.
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As I said earlier, if you get more enjoyment from digging a hole with a spoon while a shovels lays on the ground within arms reach, great, but using a shovel isn't cheating anyone of anything, it's just more efficient.
Lore says that information travels at the speed of ships? Well, according to the game, the ships travel at 4000C or more during hyperspace. So, transmitted information would be incredibly fast instead of stale as you would suggest. I'd be ecstatic if the market information was available according to your assumption. That would mean that transmitted market data from other stations in the same system would be available instantaneously, transmitted market data anywhere from within the bubble would be available in less than an hour because it takes less than an hour for a fast ship to travel across the bubble. I expect that some stations that have poor market data would rather withhold transmission rather than reveal their poor market data so as to entice traders to visit the station to find out for themselves. I expect that competitive stations would transmit their data in real-time or within the hour to bring in traders. So, I'm curious, if lore says that info should be hours or days old, why is it non-existent? The game is fundamentally flawed to have lore that says that we can't have access to any transmitted market data.
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I wasn't previously aware of Traveller. But having read up a little - yes, exactly like the X-Boat network.
As our Vargr friend has pointed out, Traveller had a system for commerce that worked quite well without being too robotic like it can be in ED. I first became an interstellar merchant in Traveller back around 1980. The full title was Traveller: Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future. The emphasis was on adventure. This game could benefit a lot from emulating it.
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Funny how ppl care how others choose to play a game.
Am i a 3rd party Tool ?
The keyboard & mouse?
Pen and paper?
Steam and the forum?
I use the Trade Computer Extension as it allows me to document the things i find during my trips. and it makes the game much more fun for me.
Think what u will but i do not give a rats cute behind if u think it is wrong.
Am i a 3rd party Tool ?
The keyboard & mouse?
Pen and paper?
Steam and the forum?
I use the Trade Computer Extension as it allows me to document the things i find during my trips. and it makes the game much more fun for me.
Think what u will but i do not give a rats cute behind if u think it is wrong.
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