NO to "third party tools" for ED

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If instantaneous datacomms were available to all

Glad news, THEY ARE!

You can park your ship at Sagittarius A* and read up to date Galnet news!

Come 1.4, you can park your ship on the opposite rim of the galaxy, with Sagittarius A* between you and the bubble, and participate in a VR deathmatch... transmitting absolutely stunning amounts of data nearly instantaneously across distances so vast that we can't really wrap our heads around it (we can try, but our real world understanding of distance leaves us without the tools to truly comprehend). And all this without so much as a special module installed on our ship.

Then when you're done with your deathmatch or CTF you can go on exploring the opposite side of the galaxy. Or maybe you're too homesick to go on? No worries, just eject from your self-destructing ship and you will be back home within MINUTES. That taxi ride might seem a little expensive, but credit-per mile it's probably the cheapest taxi ride any human has ever taken.

There's still no evidence that pens and paper exist, though.
 
So is using the Steam overlay considered cheating by you people? Because it is part of the game technically. :D
 
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Hi All,

Use of 3rd party tools is rather a personal choice.
I personally know what I am doing in the area my character(s) work in, actually still learning about the Empire and Slavery etc, as I am mostly a Fed trader. I choose not to, I find it fun finding out, not too worried about credits. But as I said each to their own. I do occasionally build configs at work on the ship building tools just to look at the price. I do not have the game available there.

I actually quite like that the community has come up with easy to use tools, with data supplied by the community. The sum is greater than its parts etc. I am sure with the tools we have in-game, our virtual characters would get together in the virtual communities and write the virtual tools missing - however this being the Elite universe, they would probably charge for access to the information.


Simon
 

wolverine2710

Tutorial & Guide Writer
Finding good trade routes and making good builds is fun for me, so I don't use these third party tools, besides them not being needed. Back when I was trading rares the route I discovered and used earned a few million credits an hour in profit trading in a Cobra with a capacity of 44t. Rares trading also meant that the upfront investment and risk was very low per run, but just the same, good luck to any pirate trying to catch me in that Cobra. Only one was ever able to.

This is something people who use these kinds tools will likely miss out on. So in this respect, these tools are more of a cheap hindrance of game-play. I won't belittle people for using them, but trust me when I say that you don't need them.

Lets just agree to disagree - which is fine.

Trust me when I say I would have left ED a long time ago was is NOT for the highly motivated tool authors who have spend countless hours in creating their tools, By reading their thread(s) I get the impression that commanders DO like them also and consider it a must have tool for their personal game play - not a cheap hindrance of game-play. A third-party tool like edcodex.info (with approx 200 entries, 94 are tools) seems to be what commanders want/need as well, otherwise it wouldn't get visited as much as its now;-)

To each their own. I just don't understand the need that some commanders (not you in particular) have to tell me how I (and countless others) should be playing ED. That's sub optimal from my point of view.
 
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To each their own. I just don't understand the need that some commanders (not you in particular) have to tell me how I (and countless others) should be playing ED. That's sub optimal from my point of view.

I will repeat my bit a bit - because I believe (I don't have facts just my observations) that heavily skews perception of the game, and this perception is echoed around gaming community.

There's tons of games which endorses achievement. ED is not that kind of game. It endorses payoff because of taking risks. Problem is, this perception endangers this 'soul' of the game if you will.

Just my opinion though.
 
This thread is quite extraordinary.

Firstly, there is no "elephant in the room". The phrase refers to an issue that everybody is aware of but no one wants to talk about. This has never been true of 3rd party tools. People talk about them all over the place.

Secondly, I see no "cheating". Even if you feel you're in a competition of some kind - and I certainly don't - 3rd party tools don't break any formally agreed set of rules.

And thirdly, "excuses". Excuses aren't required. No one's doing anything wrong.
IMO The only valid argument for not using such tools as outlined by the OP is if individuals use them and find the game boring as a result. There may be some that will find the game boring regardless, that is not necessarily a problem with the game though but rather perhaps with certain people's expectations of the game.
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I use the term boring as a (perhaps over) simplification for those that claim the game is grindy or without depth.
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Use of meta-tools such as trade calculators need not be detrimental to a given individuals enjoyment of the game and by no-means should be considered "cheating". However, if you do use such tools then you should be prepared to consider them effectively "game spoilers" especially the kind that use databases that constitute consolidated playing data (e.g trade information) from other users.
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Where trade meta-tools are concerned, I would support the concept of adding a simple integrated trade calculator based on the data the given player has access to in-game.
 
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Consider this:
If the game always gave you an instant win, would that make the game more boring?
I believe it would for me so I opt out of such things. I get my jollies for learning by doing and as I master certain things, I get my reward.
As someone else suggested, this kinda thing is pretty much everywhere in modern day gaming. Some of it is even P2W which is bad in my opinion. Sometimes it gets a new player on a level playing field. Some of it is just information sharing of exploits which is just bad.
Such things have been about since the ZX Spectrum as in walk through's, cheat codes and such so it's nothing really new.

At the end of the day, this game allows far much more freedom than many others. Examples:
If the game is too easy, change your outfitting and ship.
Too much reward on that CG, maybe even time sink considerations? No need to participate.
I could go on...plenty of options on how to play the game.

Ultimately, if you Human's engage your noodle a bit, you can make this game a lot more fun.
However, if your only way to play is to rank up as fast as you can, grind certain roles and then proceed to complain on the forums about it then I will have little sympathy.

I can see the value in 3rd Party Tools for those who are struggling to understand how the game works, because the learning curve is not the easiest, and I'm okay with that but there is a line between helping and exploiting which I'm sure FD are well aware of.

I will only raise concerns about such things if I see it as a threat to the game and how it is played.
Most tools that are available now are helping players understand the game and there is no guaranteed auto-win and while that remains the case then I'm fine with it.
The forums are worse for it than anything else as they are more current.

It's not something I would engage with myself though and I feel that if a player becomes to overly reliant on tools that they spoil the fun for themselves and effectively put the game on "Very Easy"...

But I'm just a Space Banana, what would I know.
 
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I suddenly realized that no one talks about elephant in a room and that is "third party tools" used by players for every game they play - "to maximize gains".

I just wanted to say that in my opinion that this is what in long term destroys gaming as enjoyable pass time and moves into obsession driven sugar rush madness. It's addictive, because tools and min/max attitude enables you win. In the end, all you wanna do is win, which leads to grind. Grind leads to disappointment because at some point you figure out that all you do is grind.

I realize that everyone plays game they want to play and it is not for me to educate how to do it. I just wanted to say that there are people not using tools. They are certainly read things, and hear tips and notes. However it mostly goes out in ad hoc fashion.

So say NO to third party tools. Stick with your guns and instinct. Ask if stuck and read tips from other forumians. But don't engage in mass exploitation of shared information. If you want to find that outfit that works for you - find it. Don't obsess with configurations given you by third party sites.

Edit: my issues are mostly with trading and outfitting info sharing tools (best outfit or best trade route). Outfitting tools that allows you to build configuration and figure out numbers, or commander log, which just logs all your actions, etc. is something I dig it.

Good debate - horses for courses I'd say.

But mainly I like the word "forumians".
 
IMO The only valid argument for not using such tools as outlined by the OP is if individuals use them and find the game boring as a result.

I'm fine with this line of reasoning, but I'm still skeptical about it. The kind of person who would enjoy going from station to station, collecting and managing their own trade data also happens to be the kind of person who knows that's what he enjoys. I'm such a person, and for that reason I do not use third party trading tools that share data (thus, all the trade data I have is my own). I knew right from the start that if I used other people's data that I'd be cutting myself out of some gameplay that I'd enjoy.

Thing is, I think that particular personal bent is rather rare. I also think it's rather condescending to assume that people using shared trade data are somehow unaware of what they are doing or how they enjoy spending their free time.

In fact, it's ridiculous RIGHT ON ITS FACE.

If someone uses shared trade data then it's a very safe assumption to make that they would not enjoy spending hundreds of their own hours collecting the data themselves, all before really turning a decent buck. And if they use such data and feel the game is empty and boring, then it is also very safe to say that the game, for them, is empty and boring.

They don't have to like playing the way other people play, and they don't have to like a game that other people like. Suggesting that if they'd just "Play The Right Way" then they'd have fun, is entirely wrong headed.
 
Pecisk, honest question: If FD implemented every single one of the 3rd party tools, would that make it okay?
If so, why? What's the difference?
If not, why?

I know you're not asking me, but I'm inclined to toss my opinion into the ring.

I think that would be a HUGE mistake.

There are some third party tools that are really making up for something missing in the game. A descent outfitting planner. Personal trade history. Personal exploration history. Heck, there should be personal combat history. All this should be there, tied into all relevant portions of the UI (relevant trade data on an item in the commodity market letting you know things you have every right to know). And all of it should be fully searchable. An official smart phone app that allows you to search your own personal history at any time would be great, too, you know... while I'm wishing? *

Other people's trade data should not be shared in such a way, not within the confines of the game itself. For one thing, if I've got a particular trade route on tap that's turning an unusually high profit, I don't want other people to find out about it from my own data. For another, a lack of that sort of sharing was specifically part of the design of the game, and formally removing that should not happen without making other adjustments to the game play so that there's still something there for us who enjoy trading.


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* Actually, if I were going to really wish for something in addition to all that history being exposed within the game itself, it would be an API exposing that same information to third party tools. Yes, that means more third party tools would crop up, and data would be shared and the speed of darkness. It also means that I could write my own tools, because that's what I do, which for me is a game in itself. More fun for me, more complaining for the Fun Police, more data for the data sharing crowd. EVERYONE WINS.
 
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I know you're not asking me, but I'm inclined to toss my opinion into the ring.

I think that would be a HUGE mistake.

There are some third party tools that are really making up for something missing in the game. A descent outfitting planner. Personal trade history. Personal exploration history. Heck, there should be personal combat history. All this should be there, tied into all relevant portions of the UI (relevant trade data on an item in the commodity market letting you know things you have every right to know). And all of it should be fully searchable. An official smart phone app that allows you to search your own personal history at any time would be great, too, you know... while I'm wishing?

Other people's trade data should not be shared in such a way, not within the confines of the game itself. For one thing, if I've got a particular trade route on tap that's turning an unusually high profit, I don't want other people to find out about it from my own data. For another, a lack of that sort of sharing was specifically part of the design of the game, and formally removing that should not happen without making other adjustments to the game play so that there's still something there for us who enjoy trading.

Excellent answer Sapient6, repped +1
 
I'm fine with this line of reasoning, but I'm still skeptical about it. The kind of person who would enjoy going from station to station, collecting and managing their own trade data also happens to be the kind of person who knows that's what he enjoys. I'm such a person, and for that reason I do not use third party trading tools that share data (thus, all the trade data I have is my own). I knew right from the start that if I used other people's data that I'd be cutting myself out of some gameplay that I'd enjoy.

Thing is, I think that particular personal bent is rather rare. I also think it's rather condescending to assume that people using shared trade data are somehow unaware of what they are doing or how they enjoy spending their free time.

In fact, it's ridiculous RIGHT ON ITS FACE.

If someone uses shared trade data then it's a very safe assumption to make that they would not enjoy spending hundreds of their own hours collecting the data themselves, all before really turning a decent buck. And if they use such data and feel the game is empty and boring, then it is also very safe to say that the game, for them, is empty and boring.

They don't have to like playing the way other people play, and they don't have to like a game that other people like. Suggesting that if they'd just "Play The Right Way" then they'd have fun, is entirely wrong headed.
My point was that the gathering of such data is actually part of the game and is a common feature of most games of this type. If people that are complaining about the game lacking depth and do not enjoy this kind of gameplay then there is the perfectly valid argument that perhaps this game is not really for them. Games in general have target audiences and those that try to satisfy wider audiences than originally planned tend to end up being a total kludge and worse off in the long run. Where Elite: Dangerous is concerned specifically, the game has lots of future content planned for it and while there are some that may currently find the game boring because the planned content (e.g. planetary landings and FP activities) is not here now none of those features are advertised as being part of the core game, thus either they need to be patient (in the case of backers/LEP owners) or they only really have themselves to blame for not researching the product properly before they got it.
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On the specific point about meta-tools, and specifically trade tools, personally I may use them as a guide on occasion if I am looking for new trade opportunities but I do not live and die by them. If an individual exclusively uses those tools to decide what trades to execute and then proceed to pan the game on the grounds trading is boring then they are probably missing the point of the game IMO.
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Where ship loadout calculators are concerned, I see no problem with them personally.
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At least some of the more basic meta-tools (e.g. trade calculators) are integrated features of other similar games but may depend on ship upgrades to use. A simple integrated estimated profit calculator could be a helpful and useful tool for traders for example. Either way, usage of trader calculators is a million miles away from "cheating", the collated user data based tools are little different from collaborating with friends and discussing best trading opportunities with them.
 
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I cannot play the game as i want to without 3rd party tools.

- BGS influence tracking
- player group organization
- powerplay targetting and analysis
- trade and economy analysis

Therefore i am firmly in the YES camp and want more possibilities, like an API.
 
I'm kind of curious. For those who enjoy the don't-share-info-or-use-tools trading.

Why do you trade that way?
Is it a need to live up to the constraint set by 'lore' out of a sense of duty? Is it a need to do things yourself without the help of others? Does it make you feel superior (honest question)? Is it a desire to keep your own discoveries to yourself?

How do you actually trade?
Do you just go between a few systems and work with the best you can find?
I'm assuming that eventually you work out the mechanics behind the best trade ratios. Let's say it's Imperial Slaves. Whatever it is, or you have found it to be, do you then go and search specifically for good ratios on those trades? Do you ever consider trading fish? Do you bleed a trade route dry or do you keep moving?

Do you ignore hints?
If you were in a system and heard over open chat 'Hey! Great trade of X between A and B', would you ignore it out of principle? Or would you check it out?


For a mind that is geared towards optimisation, I just can't grab the concept. I open up the commodities screen and look at the prices and think, 'Super. These numbers mean nothing to me without something to compare them against. Should I write a few of them down? Should I just buy something here and hope that I can make a profit at the next port of call?'

Well, actually, if I did not already know about the existence of trading tools, my thoughts would likely be in this order:
  1. Lots of numbers, need to compare them.
  2. Need to record them.
  3. Recording them in some sort of database would make more sense than a notepad.
  4. Having some way to capture them straight from the game would make my life easier.
  5. Great. Now I can compare numbers.
  6. I'll bet other people could benefit from this.
  7. Hey, presto! Trading tool.

So, when you look at the commodities screen, what do you see? What do you think? What makes the process of what you do... fun?
 
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Since my great hopes for a truly dynamic and volatile market won't happen anytime soon...

Is there a tool that works like EDDB but only keeps track of my trade data while still using the shared star data?

I too find the information sharing is a bit cheap and easy (merely an opinion), but is an inevitable result of the rather simple and static nature of the ED economy.

I like to tool around backwater areas with little to no trade data, doing missions, until a good trade run reveals itself. Sometimes I want to share that data, to attract others to otherwise empty areas, other times I want to keep it to myself.
 
What big deal is that they however change the way you play and in the end evaluate game.

So you're the one in charge of how other people play the game and form their opinions about it?

I am talking about info sharing tools. Commander's Log like feature is needed in the game.

So you're the one in charge of picking and choosing what features are or aren't needed?

Do tell, are you actually speaking in any official capacity other than self-appointed community sheriff?

And yes, I am itching for a fight regarding these issues because other side have easily laughed off these arguments because hey, using tools is fun.

You're itching for a fight because you're bored with the game, otherwise you would be playing it. And you also enjoy the attention. But people don't laugh off your argument because they are bad people. They laugh off your arguments because your arguments are, for the most part, laughable.

But overall, info sharing is like drug - it's very easy to convince you to use one, but it changes your POV about the game very, very considerably. If I have been sounding like trolling because I am angry about this.

Here is a good example of a laughable argument.

While it shows you're clearly upset with something, it also shows you don't really understand a lot about the tools, and you're not very knowledgeable about drugs either, so it is kind of obvious that you're just making that connection to show how IT IS A BAD THING.

As a result, your message doesn't come across as angry, like you originally intended. It comes across as silly and clueless, pretty much like this:

"I hate data sharing tools and think they should be illegal. Players are losing interest from them before they can learn to appreciate the shortcomings of the game." - Princess Pecisk

How can I not laugh?

I care it skews their perception. A LOT.

Here's my perception about the game and how trading tools have changed it:

Like basically everything else in ED, there's precious little information in-game about how the trading system works.

Not only the in-game information is scarce, but it's also unrealiable and utterly unintuitive.

True story:

* Once upon a time, a mostly penniless me docked at station A.
* I bought a shipload of a perfectly legal commodity from their market.
* While still docked in A, I checked out their "Exports to" data to see where I could sell my cargo.
* Then I jumped to system B and suddenly my cargo was illicit.
* It turns out that the commodity in question was illegal in both stations in system B.
* And to make things really perfect, there were no black markets in system B.

So, thanks to the innacurate information I obtained directly from the game, I found myself stuck with a shipload of illegal goods, under risk of receiving a hefty fine, and without any clue on where I could actually sell it - with almost a whole week of experience under my belt.

That's not "depth". That's not "content".

That's giving you bad information that will lead to confusion and a huge waste of time and loss of credits.

That's an AWFUL reward for a player's honest effort, and the worst part is, that happened FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL.
That situation didn't teach me anything useful, except that I could not trust the in-game information.

But I'm kind of stubborn sometimes, so I just marched on. Even after that I still wasted a lot more time trying to make heads and tails of the trading system without any help, even though the game won't give you anything more useful than a generic "buy low, sell high. Good luck, commander".

I spent a very long time looking for a decent trade route, enjoying the excitement of visiting a candidate system after another and taking copious notes, then hopping to all nearby systems in order to find a match that would satisfy all the requirements:

* Offering a decent margin of profit on the commodities I bring in
* Offering a commodity that I can sell at a profit on my way back
* Having a good supply/demand ratio on both ends
* A station reasonably close to the entry point on both ends

I would then take yet more notes, compare them and try to find a match.

At some point I had several pages full of tables and calculations and nothing to show for it, because I didn't have access to any actual useful information, only price lists.

And it was incredibly BORING. It was DULL BEYOND CONCEPTION.

Eventually, my persistence paid off, as I found an incredibly profitable run: 5,000 credits/ton, in a single 16ly hop. I could make six runs in an hour! It was still incredibly boring, but at least I was getting something out of it.

Three days later, powerplay brought about some arbitrary changes in local politics and the route died overnight. It went from 5k to less than half that value. Right then, right there, I gave up on trading. I simply don't have enough leisure hours in my day to burn away like that. It was too much like work to be fun.

I went bounty hunting instead and I actually had a good time while making money.

So, when I found out about the trading databases, it actually made that feature bearable again.

Not only that, but it helped me to understand what makes a route profitable and what commodities are worth trading.

Problem is, that kind of information isn't to be found in-game. You have to puzzle it out yourself from scattered and inconsistent clues, after a huge investment in hours and work - which are never in great supply for those of us that actually hold a job (or two, like Rochelle's man) and are trying to keep a whole family fed, sheltered and clothed.

So no, you're wrong. People don't complain about the lack of content in the game because they use external tools. You got it backwards: They use the tools to make up for the lack of content in the game.

The only reason people go through the trouble of developing whole websites and setting up databases (and spend their own money to host it all) is because the current implementation in the game is truly ineffective, AND THAT IS DETRIMENTAL TO THE USER EXPERIENCE.
 
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