NO to "third party tools" for ED

[Lex Looter]

What, are you going to go on to mention that it doesn't include any actual commodity prices? Yeah, I know. I noticed. I guess that's by design, or they'd have included it probably. It's almost like the designers of the game want the players to travel around the galaxy and find the profits for themselves...but that would be silly.

That's not necessary, because the goal was merely point out that you were wrong when you said that it would impossible to relay dynamic data in a timely fashion in the game universe due to technological constraints.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with what the developers wanted us to do or not.

 

[jabokai]

So many excuses

When I posted this thread I wanted to underline that I choose not to use tools because that's how this game is meant to be played (otherwise tools would be included) - and I welcomed everyone doing the same.

I didn't want to hear excuses why you play with tools - because they are just excuses. If you want to use them - use them. Just don't claim universal acclaim for that.

Some are excuses, some are legitimate reasons - the game is too frustrating to play for a lot of people and some of these tools make it bearable. I.e. some of these people would have walked a long time ago if they had to put up with the substandard in-game offerings. To be honest the main reason I don't really play is because I only use the Rift and I cannot easily keep any kind of record of prices and suchlike. Makes the game truly unpleasant to try and play. If I wasn't using a Rift then I would 100% use some kind of trade information recording and analysis tool (without shared data) and would possibly still be playing the product. As it is, it sucks so bad I have all but walked (I still fire it up for the odd Rift experience).

 

[Lex Looter]

If you want to use them - use them. Just don't claim universal acclaim for that.

As opposed to you, claiming universal acclaim because you have a pure heart? lol.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

That's fine, because that's your preference and that's your opinion (even if it is wrong).
But, FD decide how a game is meant to be played, not you. They may not have included it in the game, but they do support the use of 3rd party tools.

Sorry but as I said, no claim of universal acclaim. FD as far as I know has never endorsed automated info sharing tools, especially those removing risk aspect of the game. They however accept that they exist. As game is not strictly PvP their existence is not a big deal.

What big deal is that they however change the way you play and in the end evaluate game. It's like finishing RPG using walktrough and saying it was far too easy or it lacked depth. Because your goal wasn't to look for one in first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Some are excuses, some are legitimate reasons - the game is too frustrating to play for a lot of people and some of these tools make it bearable. I.e. some of these people would have walked a long time ago if they had to put up with the substandard in-game offerings. To be honest the main reason I don't really play is because I only use the Rift and I cannot easily keep any kind of record of prices and suchlike. Makes the game truly unpleasant to try and play. If I wasn't using a Rift then I would 100% use some kind of trade information recording and analysis tool (without shared data) and would possibly still be playing the product. As it is, it sucks so bad I have all but walked (I still fire it up for the odd Rift experience).

I am talking about info sharing tools. Commander's Log like feature is needed in the game.

 

[xaisis]

So many excuses

When I posted this thread I wanted to underline that I choose not to use tools because that's how this game is meant to be played (otherwise tools would be included) - and I welcomed everyone doing the same.

I didn't want to hear excuses why you play with tools - because they are just excuses. If you want to use them - use them. Just don't claim universal acclaim for that.

So are you some kind of judge on what is right and wrong in this game? And if some1 likes to use a tool that gives them more gaming fun, it should be wrong because u say so??

To me this simply looks like some1 is trying to pick a fight for no real reason that i can think of.


Let the traders share their data if that is what they want. And let the explores keep their note tools. why even bother them about it?

 

[Khelder]

What big deal is that they however change the way you play and in the end evaluate game. It's like finishing RPG using walktrough and saying it was far too easy or it lacked depth. Because your goal wasn't to look for one in first place.

That's fine for you to have that opinion. But please understand that it is exactly that... your opinion.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

That's fine for you to have that opinion. But please understand that it is exactly that... your opinion.

This part is actual observation. What' my opinion is - is it good or bad. I think it's bad for gaming in general.

 

[Khelder]

This part is actual observation. What' my opinion is - is it good or bad. I think it's bad for gaming in general.

Technically, the first sentence quoted was an observation. The rest is your opinion as to the result the change would have. It is your opinion that the change in play when using 3rd party tools would be "like finishing RPG using walkthrough... far too easy... lacked depth...". You can take the first sentence away if you wish. But, in general, it is your opinion.

I certainly disagree that using trading tools is like finishing an RPG using a walkthough. But that is my opinion, based on the way I use these tools.

 

[bamber]

30 years ago playing elite I was using a 3rd party tool

Spoiler

Using An Excel or access based program is a small change forward

In fact I also have a note book beside the computer that I still use for this and other games

 

[WR3ND]

The only third party tool of sorts that I used was a list on these forums that shows the rare items and the stations they're at back when I was trading rares in my rum-runner Cobra. I have somewhat mixed feelings about that, but overall I'm OK with it as I see it more as a traders' guild sharing of information rather than a third party tool. This is an MMO after all, not a solo game, and I did do that trading in open (hence the Cobra runner build).

Personally, I do draw the line before using third party trading sites that show you routes to take and where to buy and sell what. Do I think other people should use them? Ideally, no, but that isn't for me to dictate to them. All I can say is that trading really isn't that hard and that people should get out more and visit different systems and stations.

In general I agree with the premise of this thread. However, regarding "min/maxing," that's just what I do, to a degree. Sure, I don't always use the best ships for the job and the like because of personal preferences (on my return from Sgr A in a Scout at the moment, for example), but within those preferences I do optimize my builds to suit my needs.

The anti-min/maxing crowd out there needs to keep things in check just as much as the next guy, in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with playing smarter. It's when you don't enjoy the game content and playing the game itself that there's an issue, but that's up to the individual to determine, not gaming elitists. This goes for both the "min/maxers" and the "anti-min/maxers."

Strategy is fun for a lot of us. I play chess, not checkers.

This of course is disregarding actual cheating, which I won't get into in more detail, but suffice it to say that I never think that's a valid option and that cheaters should be banned from the game.

 

[OamodSias]

Sorry but as I said, no claim of universal acclaim. FD as far as I know has never endorsed automated info sharing tools, especially those removing risk aspect of the game. They however accept that they exist. As game is not strictly PvP their existence is not a big deal.

What big deal is that they however change the way you play and in the end evaluate game. It's like finishing RPG using walktrough and saying it was far too easy or it lacked depth. Because your goal wasn't to look for one in first place.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the post someone made a while back, here is the link to the community site: https://community.elitedangerous.com/fansites
On page 2, you'll see Thrudd's Elite Trading Tool and on page 3 we have ED Shipyard. So we have an FD owned website, showing support of community pages of things you're against and claim to be against the game.

Also, it's not automated sharing; people have to manually enter all the information.

No risks are being removed that I can think of. One helps you build a good ship in an easier manner (as opposed to doing the same thing at a station, but having it take you longer and having to whip out a calculator anyway), and the other helps you find trade routes, it doesn't show you non-pirated routes, it doesn't make it any safer.

As a trader, their goal is to look for the most profitable trade routes. As a combat pilot, their goal is to get as best equipped as possible. One helps you find trade routes (which can sometimes be dried up by the time you get to them) the other simply tells you how much you're going to have to spend (approx) to upgrade.

I don't think you've actually used any of these tools and are simply making assumptions; I may be wrong, but that's how it honestly comes across.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

30 years ago playing elite I was using a 3rd party tool

Spoiler

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker/DxTtiQ82QpCEfRuyNLpz_Pen.jpg

Using An Excel or access based program is a small change forward

In fact I also have a note book beside the computer that I still use for this and other games

I kinda meant information sharing, not writing down yourself.

 

[wolverine2710]

@Pecisk (OP). I happen to disagree you. I think everybody is allowed and encouraged to have their own play style. I'm perfectly fine that you are expressing your opinion though.

There is a need for third-party tools and there are quite a few of them. EDCodex has 94 tools in it and in total approx 200 entries. See also the EDCodex stats page. Its basically the on heavy steroids website version (created by biobob) of my third-party tools thread. Anyone can and is encouraged to add interesting tools,threads,websites/wikis and videos there. Should you be interested then head over to edcodex.info. The whole and sole purpose of EDCodex is to help prevent all those gems from getting snowed under by the forum (and not found). Hopefully the site helps tools and their authors getting the exposure they truly deserve!!!

 

[bamber]

30 years ago playing elite I was using a 3rd party tool

Spoiler

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker/DxTtiQ82QpCEfRuyNLpz_Pen.jpg

Using An Excel or access based program is a small change forward

In fact I also have a note book beside the computer that I still use for this and other games

I kinda meant information sharing, not writing down yourself.

I was in the military 30 years ago living on base - there was 3 or 4 of us playing this game at that point - and we used to share notepads around the barrack block with good trades on it - we even had a mini league on the go

Technology has move on as gamers we have moved with the times

 

[Renegade Roach]

So many excuses

When I posted this thread I wanted to underline that I choose not to use tools because that's how this game is meant to be played (otherwise tools would be included) - and I welcomed everyone doing the same.

I didn't want to hear excuses why you play with tools - because they are just excuses. If you want to use them - use them. Just don't claim universal acclaim for that.

Just how high is that horse? You must be suffering from altitude sickness to post this. You don't want to hear 'excuses' so you post what amounts to a troll thread, knowing full well that people will (rightly) respond. Your pejorative language and snide comments indicate that you really do care what others do, as does your posting history. Nobody is claiming 'universal acclaim' for using third party tools, yet you seem to be desperately seeking just that for not using them, it's really pathetic.

Paint me into whatever corner your imagination builds for you. Loadouts tend to be the same price everywhere (barring special faction deals and the like). They don't usually get affected by other player actions (unless it's faction flipping or something). Commodity prices are affected. Static data like the astronomical/ship/gear stats are more like a fixed part of the ruleset than the BGS. Look, you can play the "list all the things that are not part of the game that aren't trading tools" game if you like, but if we're not just trying to be pedantic to score points or something, it's obvious what point I was making. I don't know whether the OP would agree, but I suspect so.

You've been backtracking steadily since making your absurd 'if it's not included in the game it's cheating' comment. You can be as disingenuous as you like as to your original meaning, but it was clear from your subsequent posts that this included fitting tools and it has taken until now for you to attempt to refute this. While Pecisk may not view fitting tools as cheating, as you do, he most certainly is against their use and has frequently posted as such.

 

[WR3ND]

...

Sorry, but there is no need for third party tools to excel at playing Elite: Dangerous. They just sometimes make the game a little easier. Despite what you may have heard, Elite: Dangerous isn't difficult. Sure, it has a learning curve, but that gets sorted out by playing the game. This isn't a critique of the tools themselves nor is it regarding the morality of using them, so don't take this statement out of context.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Just how high is that horse? You must be suffering from altitude sickness to post this. You don't want to hear 'excuses' so you post what amounts to a troll thread, knowing full well that people will (rightly) respond. Your pejorative language and snide comments indicate that you really do care what others do, as does your posting history. Nobody is claiming 'universal acclaim' for using third party tools, yet you seem to be desperately seeking just that for not using them, it's really pathetic.

I care because others do use sharing tools, then go on saying game is void of content because they effectively skipped one.

However, I know I can't change how others play the game. And yes, I am itching for a fight regarding these issues because other side have easily laughed off these arguments because hey, using tools is fun.

Without info sharing tools you would have to:
1. actually seek good trading routes (and risk sharing one you found because it will be tanked)
2. actually get your best out of outfit you *have* not outfit is deemed best by others (as well it might not be);

I did mistake in OP using general term 'tools'. Commander Log and writing down prices for individual usage should be addressed in game, I agree. But overall, info sharing is like drug - it's very easy to convince you to use one, but it changes your POV about the game very, very considerably.

If I have been sounding like trolling because I am angry about this. I have been trying to avoid this discussion for a year, hoping people actually will try to use 'info sharing' less and less. Still, that dominates landscape. As I said, I don't care people use tools. I care it skews their perception. A LOT.

 

[Armour]

You've been backtracking steadily since making your absurd 'if it's not included in the game it's cheating' comment. You can be as disingenuous as you like as to your original meaning, but it was clear from your subsequent posts that this included fitting tools and it has taken until now for you to attempt to refute this.

Wrong. Try again. I have added the proviso to my earlier post, just for those who repeatedly (intentionally?) fail to understand obvious things, but it was always thus.

 

[Backelaer]

I care because others do use sharing tools, then go on saying game is void of content because they effectively skipped one.

However, I know I can't change how others play the game. And yes, I am itching for a fight regarding these issues because other side have easily laughed off these arguments because hey, using tools is fun.

Without info sharing tools you would have to:
1. actually seek good trading routes (and risk sharing one you found because it will be tanked)
2. actually get your best out of outfit you *have* not outfit is deemed best by others (as well it might not be);

I did mistake in OP using general term 'tools'. Commander Log and writing down prices for individual usage should be addressed in game, I agree. But overall, info sharing is like drug - it's very easy to convince you to use one, but it changes your POV about the game very, very considerably.

If I have been sounding like trolling because I am angry about this. I have been trying to avoid this discussion for a year, hoping people actually will try to use 'info sharing' less and less. Still, that dominates landscape. As I said, I don't care people use tools. I care it skews their perception. A LOT.

You assume -in the part I highlighted- that the people using trading tools are the very same people that complain about lack of content. Now is that really true? I use trading tools and you'll never hear me complaining about lack of content (well, when it comes to exploration and celestial phenomena perhaps, but that's an entirely different discussion)

 

[Khelder]

I care because others do use sharing tools, then go on saying game is void of content because they effectively skipped one.
...
Without info sharing tools you would have to:
1. actually seek good trading routes (and risk sharing one you found because it will be tanked)
2. actually get your best out of outfit you *have* not outfit is deemed best by others (as well it might not be);

...As I said, I don't care people use tools. I care it skews their perception. A LOT.

I know I don't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure many would agree with what I am about to say.

There are a lot of complaints about lack of depth and content. I understand that you are saying (I hope I understand you correctly) that by taking out trade route discovery and outfit experimentation, they are missing the depth and content. The problem seems to be... that is not the depth and content that people want to see.

Trade route discovery and outfit experimentation to me are annoyances that make it harder for me to get into the rest of the game.

I'm pretty sure what people are looking for is more ship/station variety, more 'things' in space, more mission variety, missions that actually make sense, more npc scenarios, npc behavior that makes sense. Then there are other things like planetary landings (yay, we're getting those), walking around ships, stations, etc. I'm sure there are many more ideas that people could throw out that they'd love to see. They want to interact with people and things in a more meaningful, realistic, way.

Going from station to station to check commodity prices is a grind. It's not content. And it simply doesn't make sense. Yes, I'm starting to learn that it is written in the all-important 'lore'. That doesn't mean it makes sense. People can see that it doesn't make sense - so they look for alternatives. I don't know how long that supposed lore is going to hold up anyway. There are already cracks in the whole can't-transmit-data thing. CQC seems to blow big fat holes through it.