NO to "third party tools" for ED

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I'm kind of curious. For those who enjoy the don't-share-info-or-use-tools trading.

Why do you trade that way?
Is it a need to live up to the constraint set by 'lore' out of a sense of duty? Is it a need to do things yourself without the help of others? Does it make you feel superior (honest question)? Is it a desire to keep your own discoveries to yourself?

Because I know goods flow from type of systems rather well, and when I don't know, I consult few docs by people created (this is what FD should include in game) where it is shown best way possible. Also my experience in trading allow me to assume and do some trades in blind.

In such way you can get solid capital, but actually it's slow. Therefore I say it changes perception, because people complained how trading were way easier than combat in making money. If you don't use web tools - no, it's nowhere is.

How do you actually trade?

Do you just go between a few systems and work with the best you can find?
I'm assuming that eventually you work out the mechanics behind the best trade ratios. Let's say it's Imperial Slaves. Whatever it is, or you have found it to be, do you then go and search specifically for good ratios on those trades? Do you ever consider trading fish? Do you bleed a trade route dry or do you keep moving?

I trade ad-hoc. I have bleed trade routes dry, but I usually move on before I get to that point, as I mix trading with missions a lot. I have made lot of jumps before finding suitable trade route, but I always move only when there's little gain from my actions in a system and I always make sure I have some haulage missions to make up for wasted jump.

Do you ignore hints?

If you were in a system and heard over open chat 'Hey! Great trade of X between A and B', would you ignore it out of principle? Or would you check it out?

Not at all. As I said, I am not against hints there and here. Although I am very skeptical and usually know when I will get to trade route it will be already leveled out. But I certainly follow gossip. For me gossip and hints are nice part of the game.

For a mind that is geared towards optimisation, I just can't grab the concept. I open up the commodities screen and look at the prices and think, 'Super. These numbers mean nothing to me without something to compare them against. Should I write a few of them down? Should I just buy something here and hope that I can make a profit at the next port of call?'

But I didn't say I don't write down. I do. I compare prices with knowhow I have. But that's just me. I don't try to scoop numbers from others. Preemptive knowledge of numbers not collected by me is cheapening my efforts.

 

[Lex Looter]

So say NO to third party tools. Stick with your guns and instinct.

Preemptive knowledge of numbers not collected by me is cheapening my efforts.

and when I don't know, I consult few docs by people created (this is what FD should include in game) where it is shown best way possible.

Ask if stuck and read tips from other forumians.

So it's ok to share information, as long as we follow the guidelines kindly provided by you?

Are you familiar with the english terms "hypocrisy" and "sanctimonious"?

 

[Khelder]

Is there a tool that works like EDDB but only keeps track of my trade data while still using the shared star data?

I can't guarantee that this is correct since I haven't actually tried it myself. If you take a look at RegulatedNoise_DJ Version, it provides functionality to import data from EDDB. If you use the stations_light.json from EDDB, I think you will just get the station data but no commodity prices.

I would say that my version certainly will as an option, but it's not ready yet. Sorry.

 

[Monk]

So it's ok to share information, as long as we follow the guidelines kindly provided by you?

Are you familiar with the english terms "hypocrisy" and "sanctimonious"?

Playing both sides of the fence here, because I'm shameless...

There is a huge difference between notes passed among peers and crowd sourced data aggregation. One is, to speak abstractly, orders of magnitude more powerful than the other. A difference wide enough to consider the ramifications to the way the game is "meant", based on what FD made available in game, to be experienced.

I can't guarantee that this is correct since I haven't actually tried it myself. If you take a look at RegulatedNoise_DJ Version, it provides functionality to import data from EDDB. If you use the stations_light.json from EDDB, I think you will just get the station data but no commodity prices.

I would say that my version certainly will as an option, but it's not ready yet. Sorry.

Awesome, thanks, I'll check that out.

 

[Bacalao]

The system is neither arbitrary or silly. It is how the Elite Galaxy works: corporations jealousy guard trade data to artificially increase their profits, to the point of ordering assassination attempts on those who spread that information, and the four major powers in the galaxy (The Empire, the Federation, the Alliance, and the Pilot's Federation) aides and abets this strategy, because that is how many of their members make their fortunes and remain in power.

Remember, an efficiently working economy is one where profits are slim, and people who make their living via profits will be required to actually work for a living. Corporations and the Pilots Federation are organizations who make their living via profit. The current state of the galaxy is by design by the powers that be. The democratization of information is a direct threat to those profits, and the power such wealth brings.

THAT is the nature of the Elite Galaxy: a galaxy where corporations rule over most of humanity, who are kept ignorant of the true value of their labor, and distracted from learning more by various forms of entertainment. A galaxy where these corporations outright buy representatives in Federation's parliment, are owned by the oligarchs of the Empire, and are member-states in the Alliance. A galaxy where these corporations ensure that the colonies they control are specialized to the point of being crippled without the imports those corporations bring in, making it harder for the people to revolt against their corporate overlords. A galaxy where these corporations don't want their competitors undercutting their carefully crafted monopolies.

And it's in the Pilot's Federation's best interest to maintain this status quo, because by maintaining the ignorance of the planetbound, we can earn hundreds of thousands of credits per hour, even in a small ship, as opposed to the meager 3 credits per hour earned by most of humanity.

The very heart of the problem, IMO, is that some of the "technologies" you mentioned above were tacked on very late in this game's development. There was to be no in-game FTL comms by design. The wings update, and the comm channels it added, were a gameplay compromise that needed to be made, just like the "speed limit" in combat and the Frame-shift Drive, because in reality we are playing multi-player game, not a single-player game like past Elite. But just because some compromises needed to be made doesn't mean we have to throw away the very heart of Elite, the thing that makes the Elite Universe different from other sci-fi universes.

It's still arbitrary and silly. Having broken lore doesn't fix that. Fix the lore or fix the system, or I suppose we can now have both broken?

 

[Lex Looter]

Playing both sides of the fence here, because I'm shameless...

There is a huge difference between notes passed among peers and crowd sourced data aggregation. One is, to speak abstractly, orders of magnitude more powerful than the other. A difference wide enough to consider the ramifications to the way the game is "meant", based on what FD made available in game, to be experienced.

Read his post again in Donald Trump's voice (spittle and all) when you reach the parts "Ask in the forums!" or "I read documents written by others".

There is also a difference between THAT and "passing notes among peers", don't you agree?

Anyway, I don't really see how the obvious difference in scale justifies the rationale that "it's ok if you do it a little, you're scum if you do it a lot, and I am the one who sets the threshold because it's really convenient to me".

It's like a two-bit pickpocket saying "Hey, I'm not a criminal, I'm not robbing banks like you bad guys".

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I remember when I was a kid going to the local newsagent looking for my copy of 2000AD every week for years. It was never reserved, I had to do my chores about the house to get it. That was how it was decades ago.

Yet, sometimes I went to that newsagent and "oh noes"...someone had beaten me to it.
I probably cried back then...then I had to go looking elsewhere, sometimes even traveling 5-6 miles...if my parents had of caught me I probably wouldn't be here to type this, just saying. Did help my local area knowledge though and "Tufty" was a good teacher back then.

That's the way I look at this game. I try and get a good, well below Galactic Average price and find somewhere good to sell it to. I won't just fill up my Ship and go somewhere I know I'll get a good price because someone told me, I will test run and look for options.
I'm not really focused on trading atm beyond local reputation but that's how I'll do it. I'm in the process of mapping and logging info. It's not really that alien a thing to me, it's always been about who sold the comic and where it was available. Although Comic book prices were static but if the price is bad in ED terms I'll go elsewhere.
I could just take BB missions so I get a fixed reward but where's the adventure in that?

I think it's a generational issue. When we "oldies" were kids we had to do it for ourselves, nowadays kids want everything on a silver platter with sparkles.
I'm also aware of the time restraints some have as well so another reason.

What FD have to do is try and accommodate everyone and that's never gonna be easy.

There really is no right or wrong way to play the game as long as it's deemed within the rules.
Just find your happy place...even help those who play differently to find theirs as well as in what is acceptable to both and what needs to happen to make that work.

I find this game works better for me when I work it out for myself so it's a choice.
I am so very tired of games that provide easy solutions though and while I have a choice to make the decision as to how I want to play the game, then this will be the game for me.
I like choices.

 

[OamodSias]

I know you're not asking me, but I'm inclined to toss my opinion into the ring.

I think that would be a HUGE mistake.

There are some third party tools that are really making up for something missing in the game. A descent outfitting planner. Personal trade history. Personal exploration history. Heck, there should be personal combat history. All this should be there, tied into all relevant portions of the UI (relevant trade data on an item in the commodity market letting you know things you have every right to know). And all of it should be fully searchable. An official smart phone app that allows you to search your own personal history at any time would be great, too, you know... while I'm wishing? *

Other people's trade data should not be shared in such a way, not within the confines of the game itself. For one thing, if I've got a particular trade route on tap that's turning an unusually high profit, I don't want other people to find out about it from my own data. For another, a lack of that sort of sharing was specifically part of the design of the game, and formally removing that should not happen without making other adjustments to the game play so that there's still something there for us who enjoy trading.


Edit:
* Actually, if I were going to really wish for something in addition to all that history being exposed within the game itself, it would be an API exposing that same information to third party tools. Yes, that means more third party tools would crop up, and data would be shared and the speed of darkness. It also means that I could write my own tools, because that's what I do, which for me is a game in itself. More fun for me, more complaining for the Fun Police, more data for the data sharing crowd. EVERYONE WINS.

The only trade data being given off is the prices; players update price lists with what's currently listed at the station they're docked to. Slopey's and Thrudd's, for example, then use this data to analyse the most financially lucrative commodity from one station to another (this data is usually old as well, some data I've seen is over 150 days).

If you want to share your route, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too; but from what I've seen, the only information available in apps like the aforementioned, is which routes give the best returns - information that should already be in the game in the form of say, a market.


Something to this effect, only not so complicated:

I think a UI laid out in an easy to understand way, with price ups/downs, buying prices, selling prices all on a per system basis would be excellent - as well as perhaps a complete overview of the entire galaxy, updated every hour or whatever. This would perhaps negate the need for the gamers to do the work of the developers.

 

[Monk]

Read his post again in Donald Trump's voice (spittle and all) when you reach the parts "Ask in the forums!" or "I read documents written by others".

There is also a difference between THAT and "passing notes among peers", don't you agree?

Anyway, I don't really see how the obvious difference in scale justifies the rationale that "it's ok if you do it a little, you're scum if you do it a lot, and I am the one who sets the threshold because it's really convenient to me".

It's like a two-bit pickpocket saying "Hey, I'm not a criminal, I'm not robbing banks like you bad guys".

Oh Donald...this year's best summer reality show, GOP Primary Politics: "**** It, We'll do it live", Strikes Back, Part the 3rd, Take this Rose America, I Choose You.

....

I've come to accept that Pecisk is just trying to convince everyone that the game is better if you don't use tools. What is getting the temperature boiling is the fact that people are saying that trading is too easy and the contention is that the trade tools are what make it easy. As implemented, trading is more difficult and more rewarding once success is found.

I don't entirely agree with this. Trading, in my opinion, is not difficult, as implemented. It is tedious. I've said it earlier, I find it to be a shell game and not very intellectually engaging. The simplicity of it is what gives rise to the crowd sourcing. If anything Pecisk's beef should be with basic economy mechanics, not with the players who take advantage of the plethora of tools that exploit the very base nature of the economy.

It is a futile argument in trying to convince people to stop using the tools if they want to find more engagement in the game. Rather, we should be asking for more from the trade simulation.

 

[Otis B.]

Is there a tool that works like EDDB but only keeps track of my trade data while still using the shared star data?

I haven't used it, but Inara has an offline mode where the trade data that you upload in CSV format is not shared.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Oh Donald...this year's best summer reality show, GOP Primary Politics: "**** It, We'll do it live", Strikes Back, Part the 3rd, Take this Rose America, I Choose You.

....

I've come to accept that Pecisk is just trying to convince everyone that the game is better if you don't use tools. What is getting the temperature boiling is the fact that people are saying that trading is too easy and the contention is that the trade tools are what make it easy. As implemented, trading is more difficult and more rewarding once success is found.

I don't entirely agree with this. Trading, in my opinion, is not difficult, as implemented. It is tedious. I've said it earlier, I find it to be a shell game and not very intellectually engaging. The simplicity of it is what gives rise to the crowd sourcing. If anything Pecisk beef should be with basic economy mechanics, not with the players who take advantage of the plethora of tools that exploit the very base nature of the economy.

It is a futile argument in trying to convince people to stop using the tools if they want to find more engagement in the game. Rather, we should be asking for a more from the trade simulation.

Seems like a fair point.
I would like options where I have taken the time to explore...not an up to date list but maybe a route I could plan through waypoints from potential system to system until I get my candy, as such.
That would be nice and helpful.
As long as it was all my own work, I'd be cool with it. Not out-sourced.

On a side note, I feel if you mix tedium, they become less tedious. Especially if you have a separate RP agenda to do so.
I am a bit Banana's though.

 

[Renegade Roach]

I care because others do use sharing tools, then go on saying game is void of content because they effectively skipped one.

However, I know I can't change how others play the game. And yes, I am itching for a fight regarding these issues because other side have easily laughed off these arguments because hey, using tools is fun.

Without info sharing tools you would have to:
1. actually seek good trading routes (and risk sharing one you found because it will be tanked)
2. actually get your best out of outfit you *have* not outfit is deemed best by others (as well it might not be);

I did mistake in OP using general term 'tools'. Commander Log and writing down prices for individual usage should be addressed in game, I agree. But overall, info sharing is like drug - it's very easy to convince you to use one, but it changes your POV about the game very, very considerably.

If I have been sounding like trolling because I am angry about this. I have been trying to avoid this discussion for a year, hoping people actually will try to use 'info sharing' less and less. Still, that dominates landscape. As I said, I don't care people use tools. I care it skews their perception. A LOT.

As it happens I actually would prefer if nobody used trading tools and would enjoy trading more if that were the case. I don't trade any more so it doesn't impact me, but when I did I only used Commander's Log. Still, there are a number of factors you seem to ignore. People will always share information. This is not because they want 'Candy Crush', 'easy mode' or anything of that nature. It's because they are human and humans are social creatures. For many people enjoyment comes from sharing and helping, asking them to adopt the misanthropic principal is ludicrous.

You also repeatedly point to those who use trade tools and then allegedly get bored and complain about the game. Several points here. The people getting bored or finding that the game lacks depth would still do so. You also ignore the large number of people who use trading tools and do not get bored or burn out. Furthermore you ignore those people who would get bored or burn out without trading tools. You've taken off on such a pseudo-moral crusade that you are failing to look at this rationally and dispassionately.

As for outfitting tools; you are plain wrong. I don't know how many times you need to hear it to understand, but outfitting tools (EDShipyard, Coriolis.io) do not tell you how to fit your ship. This is evidenced by the large number of terrible fittings which people post on this forum having used such tools. They are purely a way to expedite outfitting a ship. They tell you nothing which is not already easily knowable in the game itself simply by looking at the outfitting page. All they do is save time, you can achieve exactly the same result with a pen and paper. It's bonkers to claim that they are detrimental to the game.

- - - Updated - - -

So it's ok to share information, as long as we follow the guidelines kindly provided by you?

Are you familiar with the english terms "hypocrisy" and "sanctimonious"?

This, a thousand times. It's not a surprise though, since the game has launched the refrain of certain forumites has been 'if you don't do it my way, you are doing it wrong'. All of us who have been around a while know who they are, and their hackneyed old 'arguments' are riddled with hypocrisies and logical inconsistencies.

 

[Monk]

I haven't used it, but Inara has an offline mode where the trade data that you upload in CSV format is not shared.

Oh wow...this site looks very slick. How have I not seen this before?

Thanks, Commander!!

EDIT: I'm having trouble finding this option...I still see everyone else's data...which is fine for the area I'm in but I don't see where my uploads are kept to myself...is that the achievements privacy option?

Sorry, I'll take that to PM

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Does Power Play have any third-party tools, because it sure seems like it needs them...

 

[OamodSias]

Does Power Play have any third-party tools, because it sure seems like it needs them...

I haven't seen any, but what do you need in particular?
(I'm a developer hungry to contribute some kind of software to ED, lmao)

 

[lenna]

Personally, I use Roguey's Trade Helper when I want to use a trade calculator.
---
Tools in general are not a bad thing, it is excessive usage of them and the inability for the given user to realise/accept the consequences of using them that is.
---
WRT the anti-crowd source data argument, it sounds more like cries of trade tool X has made my favourite profitable trade root less profitable because too many people know about it than a real genuine complaint IMO.

 

[Monk]

Does Power Play have any third-party tools, because it sure seems like it needs them...

I haven't seen any, but what do you need in particular?
(I'm a developer hungry to contribute some kind of software to ED, lmao)

EDDB has some basic info on power play...basically just who the powers are and what systems they control.

My guess, some way to gather data on the progress of various PP activities (undermine, fortify, expansion, etc) might be useful to folks trying to get a broad picture for the ongoing activities of each power's pledges.

I think the in-game analysis for this are pretty good...but then I've only done a total of 2 hours of PowerPlay before unpledging

 

[WR3ND]

I'm kind of curious. For those who enjoy the don't-share-info-or-use-tools trading.

...

These seem to be somewhat presumptions, leading questions, and likewise I wouldn't define my game-play style as being someone that doesn't share info nor use tools. It isn't that black and white. I have no problem sharing info nor any problem with people that choose to.

So, forgive me for altering your questions, but I'm trying to apply them to my game-play style without making presumptions about why other people play the way they do.

Why don't I use trading tools and ship build tools?

Simple, really. I never made it all that high up in the trading profession, only about halfway. Being a trader wasn't a goal of mine. It's just a fairly easy way to make 10s of millions of credits when you're first starting out playing the game after doing some of the basic missions, within the first couple of weeks or so once you've got the basics down. This way I could afford better ships and afford to outfit them with high end components. I only ever wrote down a few trading routes, the rest I more or less just remembered when going to various stations looking to see what ships, build components, services, and trade goods they offered. I was also trying to find a good station and location to set up a base of operations at. I settled on one for a while that was pretty decent that had most of the ships and components that I was interested in at the time. It was one somewhat near Sirius, because that happens to be one of my favorite easy to find stars in the night sky. As I recall the station payed a fair amount for gold, or they sold it; I forget which offhand. Likewise, in my travels exploring nearby systems and stations, I happened to find another station that sold (or perhaps bought) gold at a good price. It was within a few jumps using a rather pathetic (in hindsight) FSD. I traded other goods as well, but gold was the fallback. I also took some of the trade missions that payed well enough and could fairly easily remember where to get what. This was mostly trading in a Viper starting out, but I could quickly afford a Cobra, earn that much more with the higher cargo capacity, and kit it out. (So far this is all within the first couple of weeks of playing the game.) Now this didn't start making me the big bucks yet until I started trading rares. I wasn't quite satisfied with my base of operations so went looking around the various systems and the main systems of the prominent factions (pre-Powerplay) and this is where I happened upon finding various rare goods. Trading these was very profitable and easy and it was only a short matter of time to outfit my Cobra for speed and jump distance so that I could jump far enough on a half-sized fuel tank to make a significant amount selling the rare goods and pick up rares at both ends.

So why don't I use trading tools? Simple, there was no need to. I looking into it out of curiosity, but it seemed like more hassle than it was worth. I could already make a few million credits an hour in my Cobra and didn't need to invest in a large trading ship.

And build tools? Well, making halfway decent ship builds is easy once you understand the basics. There was no trouble affording and switching out parts as needed just to see how I liked them. The only thing I've found useful from the build tools is being able to use them to discuss builds with other people that have questions about them.

At this point in time I was about a month into playing the game. If anyone is curious, I got the game after it came out on Steam and found out about it there. I would have been a backer for it had I known about it, but I've since gotten the LEP that was offered after the Horizons Gamescom announcement.

Why don't I use the third party tools? I don't know. Why would I? I guess I'd rather just play the game and find these sort of things out on my own. That sort of game-play is easier for me to keep things straight in my head. The tool listings seem too abstract and intangible.

 

[Jukelo]

There's tons of games which endorses achievement. ED is not that kind of game. It endorses payoff because of taking risks.

Ah. Ah. Pecisk, did you really try to claim ED's reward system is based on how much risk you take?
I'm sorry but you can't claim that in a game where your longest exposure to danger is 15s and where the TTK in most cases is much higher than that.
Contrary to what Armour claims, there is no danger skipped when you use the 3rd party tools. There was virutally no danger to begin with. Or did you miss the last 8 months of pirates complaining that their only way of making money, is when their prey is being generous and agrees to getting pirated rather than logging out?

 

[OamodSias]

Ah. Ah. Pecisk, did you really try to claim ED's reward system is based on how much risk you take?
I'm sorry but you can't claim that in a game where your longest exposure to danger is 15s and where the TTK in most cases is much higher than that.
Contrary to what Armour claims, there is no danger skipped when you use the 3rd party tools. There was virutally no danger to begin with. Or did you miss the last 8 months of pirates complaining that their only way of making money, is by people being generous and agreeing to getting pirated rather than logging out?

I'd say it opens you up to some danger... an enterprising pirate could use the trade tools to find the most lucrative routes and try his luck at some unlucky CMDR hauling valuable cargo. :>