NO to "third party tools" for ED

[Darkfyre99]

It's still arbitrary and silly. Having broken lore doesn't fix that. Fix the lore or fix the system, or I suppose we can now have both broken?

Complaining about particulars of the setting of the Elite Universe, especially one so fundamental, is a bit like complaining about 12 meter humanoid war machines in the Battletech Universe, the Force in the Star Wars Universe, or Warp Drives in the Star Trek Universe. It's what makes Elite Elite, and not a clone of the stereotypical "syfy" universe. (Abbreviation used intentionally.)

edit: and it's only broken in your opinion. In my opinion, it's working quite well.

 

[Bacalao]

Complaining about particulars of the setting of the Elite Universe, especially one so fundamental, is a bit like complaining about 12 meter humanoid war machines in the Battletech Universe, the Force in the Star Wars Universe, or Warp Drives in the Star Trek Universe. It's what makes Elite Elite, and not a clone of the stereotypical "syfy" universe. (Abbreviation used intentionally.)

Then what makes Elite Elite makes is silly and arbitrary, if you're going to change fundamental mechanics about your universe in a new iteration then you need to change the fundamental lore to work with them. Now I prefer to form lore first and add in mechanics from there, either way, the hodge podge needs to stop. I see a great benefit to the fundamentals of the gameplay by changing trading from hand to hand day trading into something interactive and engaging and consistent and believable.

 

[Ben Ryder]

I didn't even RTFM... oh hang on.. that's not thrid party... downloads manual.

 

[WR3ND]

I didn't even RTFM... oh hang on.. that's not thrid party... downloads manual.

Ha! Now that you mention it, I haven't either. What secrets it must contain!

Just some YouTube reviews and these friendly forums to point me in the right direction starting out. Ah, the good old days when things were simple.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

If Lore is behind the mechanics of the Elite Universe, we need Data, fast...

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I didn't even RTFM... oh hang on.. that's not thrid party... downloads manual.

Real men don't use manuals, they just hit things with hammers...or so I understand it.

 

[Backelaer]

I remember when I was a kid going to the local newsagent looking for my copy of 2000AD every week for years. It was never reserved, I had to do my chores about the house to get it. That was how it was decades ago.

Yet, sometimes I went to that newsagent and "oh noes"...someone had beaten me to it.
I probably cried back then...then I had to go looking elsewhere, sometimes even traveling 5-6 miles...if my parents had of caught me I probably wouldn't be here to type this, just saying. Did help my local area knowledge though and "Tufty" was a good teacher back then.

That's the way I look at this game. I try and get a good, well below Galactic Average price and find somewhere good to sell it to. I won't just fill up my Ship and go somewhere I know I'll get a good price because someone told me, I will test run and look for options.
I'm not really focused on trading atm beyond local reputation but that's how I'll do it. I'm in the process of mapping and logging info. It's not really that alien a thing to me, it's always been about who sold the comic and where it was available. Although Comic book prices were static but if the price is bad in ED terms I'll go elsewhere.
I could just take BB missions so I get a fixed reward but where's the adventure in that?

I think it's a generational issue. When we "oldies" were kids we had to do it for ourselves, nowadays kids want everything on a silver platter with sparkles.
I'm also aware of the time restraints some have as well so another reason.

What FD have to do is try and accommodate everyone and that's never gonna be easy.

There really is no right or wrong way to play the game as long as it's deemed within the rules.
Just find your happy place...even help those who play differently to find theirs as well as in what is acceptable to both and what needs to happen to make that work.

I find this game works better for me when I work it out for myself so it's a choice.
I am so very tired of games that provide easy solutions though and while I have a choice to make the decision as to how I want to play the game, then this will be the game for me.
I like choices.

Ah man, I can sympathise with the general gist of your post. I really can. I get the fun in discovering a sweet route all by yourself. I use third party tools a lot, but sometimes I just feel like searching them out myself. And that's a lot of fun indeed.
I mean, you seem like a nice banana and all. I might even say, the nicest space banana I ever met, but why?
Why oh why, do you have to make it about generations? For god's sake. I really hate that. You even used the word 'silver platter'. You do know your parents' generation said that about yours. And the generation before that. And.. well you know where I"m going. Please don't do that. It's condescending.
I'll get off your lawn now

 

[Deleted member 94277]

I realize that everyone plays game they want to play and it is not for me to educate how to do it. I just wanted to say that there are people not using tools. They are certainly read things, and hear tips and notes. However it mostly goes out in ad hoc fashion.

It certainly doesn't seem that you "realize that everyone plays game (sic) they want to play". If that was the case, why would you care what people do or don't do in their games? Just don't use those tools. It's perfectly possible to trade and explore without them.

Edit: my issues are mostly with trading and outfitting info sharing tools (best outfit or best trade route). Outfitting tools that allows you to build configuration and figure out numbers, or commander log, which just logs all your actions, etc. is something I dig it.

So, you think that only tools you use are legit? All others should be banned while those you "dig" are okay, is that it? If this is the case, then no. I don't think I agree with you or your ideas, mostly because that double standard is something that I can't and never will agree with. Any player should be able to use any tools they feel like it, as long as those tools don't interfere with the gameplay or are considered cheats.

 

[Jmanis]

Quick guys, BAN EXCEL SPREADSHEETS!

But more constructively,, having access to things like the outfitter tool or market trading tool, it's not an "I Win" button. If that's anyone's idea of winning, then they've got the whole concept of Elite wrong. But whatevs, burn your own trail and all that, I'm not going to try and claim that "He who grinds out the most trading wins Elite".

Heaven forbid I make a comparison to EVE here, but it's always interesting to see how many threads here are *exactly the same* as what's come up on the EVE forums in the past. There was a term called "EFT-Warrioring" which basically referred to people who used fitting tools to come up with the best loadouts and would swear black and blue by them, but had never actually used them in combat... turns out their fits were steaming piles of dung because they only looked good on paper.

Again, third party tools like this aren't "I win" buttons, nor do they give an unfair advantage. Maybe they do shortcut the process, but hell, I wouldn't have discovered the UA morse if it wasn't for people sharing information on that (as I've never actually found a UA myself, only seen videos).

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Ah man, I can sympathise with the general gist of your post. I really can. I get the fun in discovering a sweet route all by yourself. I use third party tools a lot, but sometimes I just feel like searching them out myself. And that's a lot of fun indeed.
I mean, you seem like a nice banana and all. I might even say, the nicest space banana I ever met, but why?
Why oh why, do you have to make it about generations? For god's sake. I really hate that. You even used the word 'silver platter'. You do know your parents' generation said that about yours. And the generation before that. And.. well you know where I"m going. Please don't do that. It's condescending.
I'll get off your lawn now

Banana's don't have lawn's as such, we grow on tree's...which is home and something I sadly miss...(sighs whimsically).
I doubt many Humans would let a Banana's tree grow on their lawn tbh, especially the English.
Silver platter reference:
It's a metaphorical thing, by gaining something easily and presented to for little or no effort.
You're a Human, you should get this.

Maybe I should flap my translator silly again...usually works.


Do the homework, learn humanity, become enlightened.
If you didn't live it, understand those who did.
Back in the day we had imagination and very little reward, nowadays gamer's almost want the game to play itself and instant gratification.
There is a world of difference between the two.
It's sad but it's true but it is where we are now.
FD have to keep everyone happy so how much value would you put on that?
It won't be easy.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Then what makes Elite Elite makes is silly and arbitrary, if you're going to change fundamental mechanics about your universe in a new iteration then you need to change the fundamental lore to work with them. Now I prefer to form lore first and add in mechanics from there, either way, the hodge podge needs to stop. I see a great benefit to the fundamentals of the gameplay by changing trading from hand to hand day trading into something interactive and engaging and consistent and believable.

Trading in this game is interactive, engaging, consistent, and believable. It's also a lot of fun, and can be quite exciting. It's also fundamental to the Elite experience, and one of the reasons I kick-started this game in the first place. I've played dozens of space trading sims, but none could capture the fun and excitement that is Elite. I wanted to play a new generation of Elite, not a generic syfy universe with the Elite logo taped to the cover, warped by focus groups and "follow the leader" publishers into something unrecognizable. And what we have today is pretty close to what I'd hoped, gameplay compromises notwithstanding, CQC not included.

Since I doubt either of us will be able to change the other's opinion, why don't we agree to disagree? You can keep playing your game on autopilot via your 3rd party apps, while I'll keep enjoying the antiquated game play I enjoy so much, perfectly content to never see the cockpit of an Anaconda in my life, because I'd much rather have fun playing inefficiently, than be bored "grinding" away at maximum efficiency.

 

[Deleted member 94277]

All of it

"Back in the day we had imagination"? Please.

Let me just say it, I'm a father of two who plays video games for almost three decades already. And I simply hate that kind of argument. Gaming is as good as ever and I simply love that we're always going forward and never backwards. That we're advancing. I honestly feel ashamed whenever somebody with the same age as myself starts with that, because it makes us look like old cavemen, longing for the days before fire existed.

 

[Backelaer]

Banana's don't have lawn's as such, we grow on tree's...which is home and something I sadly miss...(sighs whimsically).
I doubt many Humans would let a Banana's tree grow on their lawn tbh, especially the English.
Silver platter reference:
It's a metaphorical thing, by gaining something easily and presented to for little or no effort.
You're a Human, you should get this.

Maybe I should flap my translator silly again...usually works.


Do the homework, learn humanity, become enlightened.
If you didn't live it, understand those who did.
Back in the day we had imagination and very little reward, nowadays gamer's almost want the game to play itself and instant gratification.
There is a world of difference between the two.
It's sad but it's true but it is where we are now.
FD have to keep everyone happy so how much value would you put on that?
It won't be easy.

Nope. Sorry. Done enough homework for a lifetime.
I very well know what the silver platter expression means. I just don't agree with you. You assume everybody younger than you expects instant gratification in games. I just don't believe that to be true.
What bothered me about your post is that you bring age into the equation in the first place.
Essentialy, you assumed that all the people below a certain age play the game a certain way, and that older people somehow play it better. Or learn to appreciate it more. I just can't stand that. That shows a real lack of empathy in my opinion.

Mind you, I'm no spring chicken either. But everytime someone brings up the "back in my day, we had to work for our stuff" argument, it just ruffles my feathers in a bad way. It's male cow excrements.
Seniority doesn't mean jack squat. Not in the context that we're talking about anyway. In a lot of other (real life) matters, yeah it makes a difference, but not here.

I still like bananas though.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

"Back in the day we had imagination"? Please.

Let me just say it, I'm a father of two who plays video games for almost three decades already. And I simply hate that kind of argument. Gaming is as good as ever and I simply love that we're always going forward and never backwards. That we're advancing. I honestly feel ashamed whenever somebody with the same age as myself starts with that, because it makes us look like old cavemen, longing for the days before fire existed.

Simple question, if or when you first played Elite, did it not set your imagination on fire? It worked for me.
I first played on a BBC Micro after hours in school and I loved it.
School Caretaker was the coolest person ever because he only made us leave when he left. We just played the game, never moved, never caused any trouble.
3 years of that, was the most fun.

We are only as old as we feel. I still have much enthusiasm for this game 30 years from when it was first released, a scary amount tbh.
Gaming is not any kind of bed of roses anymore.
This game has it right though, you can single player, you can group with friends, you can pvp if that's your thing.
Everyone wins.
PvP gets too much, retreat a little.
Options like that are priceless in the current hate filled competitive mindset because new players need a place to learn and this game allows that which is rare.
More games should do the same.

I work in gaming every day (non-pro), albeit not for FD, and this game I like because of what it offers.
It's one of the very few games I've actually enjoyed over the last few years.

When I actually played Elite back in the day my imagination went a bit crazy. It wasn't Star Wars but the fact I was flying a ship was so awesome that if you didn't get it at the time then I'm wasting my time explaining it to you.
You have no idea what ideas I had when playing that game...there were many and a lot of them are planned for this game so I guess I'm not alone.

Back in the day we had to learn how to play so when this game came out I started learning to play it. That's my choice how to play it.
Things that are alien to me are shortcuts, best trade routes...

I won't and can't stop others from using them but I will say that it will only detract from your game experience.
If it gets to the point where players are exploiting a certain thing then I would expect FD to do their thing.

Other than that, I just wanna play the game and y'know, have fun with it.

 

[Khelder]

Trading in this game is interactive, engaging, consistent, and believable. It's also a lot of fun, and can be quite exciting.

Absolutely, it is! I get to interact with market data collected by myself and my fellow commanders, make trade decisions made for my own reasons with the assistance of computer-calculated ratios, and then have the fun and risk of buying/selling/hauling. Sometimes it's not so fun. I lost 1.2M CR in a shipment once thanks to a pirate. But that's the risks in trading, right?

Since I doubt either of us will be able to change the other's opinion, why don't we agree to disagree? You can keep playing your game on autopilot via your 3rd party apps, while I'll keep enjoying the antiquated game play I enjoy so much, perfectly content to never see the cockpit of an Anaconda in my life, because I'd much rather have fun playing inefficiently, than be bored "grinding" away at maximum efficiency.

Yep. I totally disagree. I guess you could use the word 'antiquated' for the trading-blind method. I would more say that it defies logic. That's my opinion.

I also totally disagree that I am playing the game on autopilot. I am optimising one of the multitude of activities that go into trading. Given the time I have available to play this game, I will likely never see the cockpit of an Anaconda either, even if I did 'auto-pilot' my way at maximum efficiency. But I will enjoy the time I do spend by not drowning in mindless tasks that don't make sense to me.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Nope. Sorry. Done enough homework for a lifetime.
I very well know what the silver platter expression means. I just don't agree with you. You assume everybody younger than you expects instant gratification in games. I just don't believe that to be true.
What bothered me about your post is that you bring age into the equation in the first place.
Essentially, you assumed that all the people below a certain age play the game a certain way, and that older people somehow play it better. Or learn to appreciate it more. I just can't stand that. That shows a real lack of empathy in my opinion.

Mind you, I'm no spring chicken either. But every time someone brings up the "back in my day, we had to work for our stuff" argument, it just ruffles my feathers in a bad way. It's male cow excrements.
Seniority doesn't mean jack squat. Not in the context that we're talking about anyway. In a lot of other (real life) matters, yeah it makes a difference, but not here.

I still like bananas though.

Lol, stop putting words in my mouth. The metaphor relates to a gaming style where everything is hyper-intensive. Rewards are quick and constant which is a world away from what Elite is and was. That's one of the reasons they complain, the game doesn't let them rank up fast enough yet they are silent when there's a bug which lets them do so. So, please don't tell me it doesn't happen or players don't use exploits or use the most OP weapon in any game because it happens all the time. It is how games are played these days.
Welcome to modern gaming.

If you think that I'm being "ageist" in any way shape or form that's entirely up to yourself but if you look at gaming over the last two decades you will see a trend that shows rewards are offered far more than what they used to be.
When I was playing games when I was a kid, I didn't need that, I was just having fun. The only message I can remember was "Winners don't use drugs" when I was 12 or thereabouts. This was back when things were new and fresh though. Awesome times.

I'm referring to the fundamental shift in how gaming has evolved.
I'm not so much upset how it has evolved but Elite was the game that gave me much more freedom than many other games and I think that's its master stroke of genius.
I have gotten tired of generic game after generic game. And okay, ground breaking game followed by generic clone after generic clone. Yearly re-skins and updated players and yadda, yadda, yadda...after years of this abuse by the gaming industry it becomes oh so very tired. To the point where you stop buying the .
Here's the thing, wander about, oh, found this armour, now I'm a God, goes fight Big Bad Boss, repeatedly spams left mouse button, magical armour wins, my fore finger is tired. I haz won but I feel nothing...but I haz all this XP...but I don't care. It's not good enough for me.
Another would be the cutscenes, press "x" repeatedly, then "Space", Then...and who cares.
Not exactly what I would consider gaming.
Donkey Kong had more than that, at least you had to time it rather than spam it.
I hope you're getting what I'm saying here.

My point is I like this game because of the freedom it gives me. It gave me freedom when I was a kid as well. I had to learn how to play the game, that's a massive bonus in itself.
That's not something that should be disregarded at any point.

Btw, you assumed what you did. I never made that decision, you did. If you perceive me to be this aged old guy who hates on kids and wants them to stop having fun then feel free to roll with it because you have no clue what I do and have done for the "kids"...and not only in gaming.
It's so very far from the truth though. Sad that in this day and age I can't even relate to being an old gamer without someone taking offence.

I said earlier in the thread "To each their own".
I do not presume to be senior to anyone at all and I do not talk down to anyone, I'm generally pretty cordial to most. Try the Empire fraternity, they're pretty good for that or so I hear.

I am a Federation Space Banana, deal with it?
I'd tell you more but I'd only compromise myself.

You still have access to the non-sentient sub-species...barely.

 

[Khelder]

Simple question, if or when you first played Elite, did it not set your imagination on fire?
...
I won't and can't stop others from using them but I will say that it will only detract from your game experience.

When I first played Elite, it did set my imagination on fire. I'm realising though that I was obviously a little bit too young at the time (and possibly more distracted by a passion for programming) to really get into what trading had to offer back then. I'm sure though that even back then, on my BBC Micro, with the wireframe ships and beachball planets, if I had of looked serious at what trading involved - I would have given it a miss.


Btw, I do agree that the whole 'in our day' thing is a bit condescending. Times have changed. Things are different. Access to vast amounts of information is a LOT easier nowadays than it has been at any time in the past. That does not mean that different challenges have not arisen to take the place of the once that have been overcome. Suggesting that people have it easier in a more recent generation because of certain improvements ignores the new struggles they face that older generations didn't.

That, I believe, should also be borne out in the game. Access to information shouldn't be the 'challenge'. What you do with that information should be the challenge. Or, even better, how can I manipulate things to change the information?

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

When I first played Elite, it did set my imagination on fire. I'm realising though that I was obviously a little bit too young at the time (and possibly more distracted by a passion for programming) to really get into what trading had to offer back then. I'm sure though that even back then, on my BBC Micro, with the wireframe ships and beachball planets, if I had of looked serious at what trading involved - I would have given it a miss.


Btw, I do agree that the whole 'in our day' thing is a bit condescending. Times have changed. Things are different. Access to vast amounts of information is a LOT easier nowadays than it has been at any time in the past. That does not mean that different challenges have not arisen to take the place of the once that have been overcome. Suggesting that people have it easier in a more recent generation because of certain improvements ignores the new struggles they face that older generations didn't.

That, I believe, should also be borne out in the game. Access to information shouldn't be the 'challenge'. What you do with that information should be the challenge. Or, even better, how can I manipulate things to change the information?

Well, I guess it was how you looked at the game. The whole thing revolves around effort from my perspective. I go scan, log everything and anything that might be of interest in a system. Probably very boring to some but if I get a reward from it'll be something I did myself. I'm not even one of those super smart Banana's you haven't about before either.
I have said I don't care what others do but it works for me. Would probably bore some Human's to death though.

Condescension was never intentional. The relevance merely related to what early gamers had to work with and how it works now.
The idea was to suggest that you can do it without tools and that their usage is not necessary.
It's all about choice which I made plain earlier that I don't care how some people play the game.
I will just play it my way.
I find it funny I'm getting attacked loads though but I guess you guys don't read back much.
What do.

If no one tells you how it was, you will never understand the difference between what Elite was and what it is now.
This is very important information for both the old and new players as their ideals can tend to conflict somewhat.

I can only reiterate the point that if you want to make the game easier for yourself then go do.
Some of us are traditionalist in our nature and challenge ourselves.
So, just do what you do, make yourself happy. I won't judge you, it's not my place.
I just want the freedom to play the game the way I want to.
Things may change, I may have to adapt, maybe you will or maybe it'll stay like it is, no one knows.
I just like the game as is and expect them to continually improve it, like they have been.
So I'm in a happy place.

 

[Khelder]

I find it funny I'm getting attacked loads though but I guess you guys don't read back much.

Sorry. I didn't really mean for it to be an attack. Things have changed and certainly not all of them for the better. I agree with you on spammy aspects of many games these days. *I better be careful here otherwise I'll be a huge hypocrite by making comparisons to 'the old days'* Elite is different in many ways. I just feel that challenge or depth from the game shouldn't come replicating the limitations of the past, but by finding new ways to expand the experience.

I think back in the BBC Micro days, it was amazing that they came up with what they did, and that was most likely pushing the limits of the hardware. With todays hardware capabilities, the possibilities for an expanded gameplay experience are huge.

Great to hear from a fellow BBC Elite explorer.

 

[maddavo]

Two days ago I finally cracked the Elite rank in trading. It took about 10 months. I'd say 95% of the 1 billion credits acquired were using a trading tool. If you think the use of a 3rd party tool somehow invalidates the time/effort it too to reach the rank then that is your reality not mine.

I have read comments about trading being a grind using a tool. Um, I think I missed something because surely if a tool optimises your trading then it actually minimises your grind. I think it is fair to say that trading in general can be a grind whether a tool is used or not. I neither encourage nor discourage players from using tools - do whatever you want and you enjoy. I am interested to hear stories of what others enjoy so I can identify and relate to them, but also to see if there are any new ways in which I can enjoy the game.

I have read comments about what others imagine my enjoyment of ED to be and how it must be diminished because I use a tool. Mmm. I love ED. It is my favourite game (and I think there has been no time when there have been so many great games around). I have thoroughly enjoyed playing and trading with a tool. I know how to trade without a tool using the GM, SM, market import/export info and purchased trade data, and I still find trading without a tool mildly frustrating because the in-game information could be organised better and mechanisms to search and record your own in-game info could be better but acknowledge that overcoming those frustrations can be rewarding to a certain extent.

This forum is a third party tool to ED. I'd like it if there were an in-game community forum/noticeboard system with commander profiles etc rather than the limited instant messaging. But there isn't - so this forum fills a need and I think we all enjoy using the forums otherwise we wouldn't be using them. And that's the nature of other third party tools - they fulfil needs and enhance enjoyment when we want.

I will put my hand up - I created/run a website that shares price data that supports a trading tool. I did this because I had moved on from paper and then excel to try a few trading tools but tools needed data. After collecting the data myself for a while I thought - "gees I need other people to tell me what the price of stuff is where they are". Muhaha. But seriously it is implausible to me that there is a universe where there is so much interstellar technology/communication, GalNet etc, but no commodity market advertising. If I were running a market at a station, transmitting my price list would definitely be part of my interstellar marketing campaign.

To my mind, those of us that make and use 3rd party trading tools are doing what traders would be doing in the ED universe. Moreover, I have gained additional enjoyment through the community of 3rd party tool developers - working out how to solve problems, being amazed at the creativity of people, and some very nice feedback from other commanders.

I think some 3rd party tools are filling gaps in the game for those who choose to use them, some believe certain features should be in-game, some don't. Plus, if there's any chance that 3rd party tools can take even a small percentage of the feature development burden away from Frontier then woohoo I say 'cos I gotta get me some of those planetary landings!! Hurry up dudes!