Powerplay Has Frontier Quit PowerPlay?

[JessieColt]

Originally Posted by Ziljan There is a reason the Empire has all the people. I hate the empire, but I am pledged to ALD because I can make 6 Million per hour via trading (on the Torval Border) or via Bounty Hunting with the Rank 2 bonus. I can't do that with any other power. Not even close.

Yep, this is what I mean by intrinsic inequality.

FD is coercing players to join the Empire conspicuously, and that is not only unethical but extremely unprofessional.

This is what I don't understand though.

Hudson gives the same bonuses to Bounties. Only his is lower because he is not in 1/2/3 Standing. If he was in the #1 spot he would be paying out the super high bounty bonuses instead of ALD.

So how then is FD using coercion to get players to join ALD over Hudson?

 

[Apos]

This is what I don't understand though.

Hudson gives the same bonuses to Bounties. Only his is lower because he is not in 1/2/3 Standing. If he was in the #1 spot he would be paying out the super high bounty bonuses instead of ALD.

So how then is FD using coercion to get players to join ALD over Hudson?

Hudson started as the power with the most contributors. But was later abandoned when Arissa grew faster. It was easier for her due to Hudson starting with more systems and bigger overhead costs. (with overhead being even a bigger deal back then) The Arissa people went nuts in expansion the first weeks and grabbed the #1 spot because successful expansions provide a bonus to your rating. Then FD also lowered the overhead values and Arissa was safe at her new #1 spot.

Hudson might have the same bonus, but he never had the same expansion capacities, so he lost his #1 spot too fast, too son, then every min-maxer abandoned him and moved to Arissa. With the overhead fix Arissa would retain her #1 from that point onward. It only went even more downwards for Hudson from there.

 

[John Adams]

I just am not sure if I am understanding what the inequality is that is happening, or is perceived to be happening and I would like to understand better.

I don't believe their is an inequality or a favouritism to the Imperial Powers.

I think if I was a bounty hunter then why the heck wouldn't I join Arissa and get the massive bonus for here sitting pretty in No.1 spot. More people tend to be combat orientated.

Then you get the people who only undermine which costs them zero credits and allows them to bank their 50 million each week.

Not critising anyone for playing that way, but that is why over 50% of power players pledge to Arissa, I can guarantee that if you swapped Arrisa's rewards with Winters for 2 weeks you would see her shed a lot of supporters.

Not the real power players, but those in it for self interest.

 

[JessieColt]

You speak as if the only two differences you noted are a small deal? They = lots of credit difference and a bonus to combat other factions do not enjoy at all. They are not.

Hi Mikalus,

This is exactly what I am trying to understand

As a new player, I see these differences as small, others, like yourself, do not. And I am trying to get myself educated in understanding why they are a big difference instead of a small one.

Knowing that credit earning potential is one of the reasons really helps.

I am trying to, for my own sanity, understand why when Hudson and ALD offer the same bounty bonuses, and therefore the same credit earning potential, why ALD is favored over Hudson.

 

[khemsa]

Hudson gives the same bonuses to Bounties.

ALD has also extra 20% bounty bonus which affect all bounty hunting in her area, part of her faction or not.
Hudson has extra security in fed systems, which means weaker ships and lower bounties.

 

[JessieColt]

I don't believe their is an inequality or a favouritism to the Imperial Powers.

I think if I was a bounty hunter then why the heck wouldn't I join Arissa and get the massive bonus for here sitting pretty in No.1 spot.

Then you get the people who only undermine which costs them zero credits and allows them to bank their 50 million each week.

Not critising anyone for playing that way, but that is why over 50% of power players pledge to Arissa, I can guarantee that if you swapped Arrisa's rewards with Winters for 2 weeks you would see her shed a lot of supporter.

Not the real power players, but those in it for self interest.

This is how and why I picked ALD.

I am working on my Combat ranking, and when I looked to join up with a PP faction that has combat bonuses, she was in the top spot, and thus offered me the greatest chance of maximizing my credits.

If Hudson was in the top spot, I would have joined him, since he offers the same bounty bonuses.

I am an opportunist. I am going to go with whichever Power, regardless of politics or modules, or whatever, that gives me the highest earnings potential based on what my current play style is at any given moment.

If I were concentrating on Trading, I would look for the power that could maximize my credits gains from trading.

I just don't understand how this translates into favoritism by FD since FD has no control over how I play, or which power I pledge to during any given cycle.

Would it be considered favoritism if Hudson where in the top spot and 50% of the player based switched to his faction to gain from the bonuses?

Or is the underlying issue that not every power has the same bonuses, which is causing a mass defection from other powers to ALD which reinforces keeping her in the top spot?

I think this is what Mikalus was saying in their reply. That the credit gain from being in ALD skews the player base to joining her faction over all others. Once ALD hit #3 in the standings, it became inevitable that she would end up in top spot and with the largest player base because of her rewards.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Generally speaking, outside of modules and bonuses being completely unequal, the placements of the powers and their corresponding area's systems and government types are strangely favorable for some powers and strangely unfavorable for others.

Then there's the more recently incidents of "Empire gets 'bailouts'" strangely still under investigation.

Then the crucial expansions systems being glitched and will take months to fix and yet no viable short term solution is provided because...? It's not Empire being largely affected.

Factions are suppose to be intrinsically equal, but it's becoming increasingly clear that they are not, and the culprit of that inequality is no other than FD.

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This is what I don't understand though.

Hudson gives the same bonuses to Bounties. Only his is lower because he is not in 1/2/3 Standing. If he was in the #1 spot he would be paying out the super high bounty bonuses instead of ALD.

So how then is FD using coercion to get players to join ALD over Hudson?

Em' Imperial Hammers and embedded bias based on Clipper vs. Dropship previously.

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I went to church since its release and did pray.
I hate how it needs a standalone colour in the Target Panel and that CQC followed suit with its own red!
I also hate the silly * next to Contacts in Starport. No more please, have mercy, I tried it in Beta and it simply sucks.

...

Did you post in the wrong section?

 

[GluttonyFang]

The thing is it's not the Empire, it's Arissa Lavigny. As a Zemina Torval supporter I get no benefit from Arissa being that size other than she would get a penalty for destroying our ships, they don't attack because it would cost them merits, same with Aisling to a certain degree, even though from a lore perspective our two factions have the biggest beef with each other.

I understand Torval's situation, but I'm making a general statement as you can see from Clipper vs Dropship.

 

[Mikalus]

Hi Mikalus,

This is exactly what I am trying to understand

As a new player, I see these differences as small, others, like yourself, do not. And I am trying to get myself educated in understanding why they are a big difference instead of a small one.

Knowing that credit earning potential is one of the reasons really helps.

I am trying to, for my own sanity, understand why when Hudson and ALD offer the same bounty bonuses, and therefore the same credit earning potential, why ALD is favored over Hudson.

I personally don't think it's favouritism I think it's bad game design that wasn't tested as thoroughly as it should have been before leaving Beta. My problem is that so many modules are completely worthless and testing should have revealed this! So should the fact that there are so many glitches such as systems not lowering costs when they should or factions that make fortifying and expanding easier for imperial powers being absolutely everywhere and then rarely existing at all in other places. The factions that grant a bonus to Hudson are all anti the federation ethos and actually fit in much better with Imperial ethos.

Then you have my own power Archon and the systems around him are low population meaning it's very difficult to expand with positive CC.


Just a few few examples I hope help you with understanding. I'm on my phone and if you need more details will provide them later, just ask

EDIT sorry Fang I just saw you answered the system favouribility thought.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

What you seem to be intentionally ignoring is that FD took advantage of the "opportunists" to reinforce the Empire bias.

 

[JessieColt]

ALD has also extra 20% bounty bonus which affect all bounty hunting in her area, part of her faction or not.
Hudson has extra security in fed systems, which means weaker ships and lower bounties.

Okay. this makes sense.

Hudson, while offering the same bounty bonus, increases security, thus making it harder to to work bounties in his space if the system is Federation Aligned which decreases the actual amount of credits that can be earned in his space.

So the only way to really get a bonus is when he is 1/2/3 standings and in limited systems in his space, whereas ALD offers the flat bonus to anyone, with an increased bonus based on 1/2/3 without the restrictions because of increased security. So it makes more sense that if you are going to bounty hunt in her area to get the 20% bonus without the increased security, you might as well join her faction too so that you can get an even bigger increase in credits because she is in the #1 spot.

So even though I actually thought Hudson and ALD were pretty equal, I wasn't understanding the finer differences between the other effects that each has and how those effects have a big impact on the credit earning potential that each has.

I think I am finally understanding why things are skewed to ALD then. Unfortunately, it looks like a self-fulfilling cycle then. The longer she stays in the #1 spot, the more people will end up joining her, because of the bonuses. And the more people who join her, the harder it will be to knock her out of the #1 spot because of the sheer number of players in her power base.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Obviously a scheme by FD for an Empire galaxy conquest.

I really think it's a combination of bad game design and bias judging from the previous occurrences.

But as in contemplating whether one caused another, I would like to think the latter caused the former.

 

[Kroy]

the harder it will be to knock her out of the #1 spot because of the sheer number of players in her power base.

That's the nub right there. And while it may be fun for those raking it in for a short while, it doesn't present a very favourable light on F Dev's ability to design a fun, compelling, addictive, enjoyable, challenging player-run experience. Which in turn damages their reputation with players (potential customers) who don't invest in their expansions, which in turn damages their ability to generate income, which in turn makes them less of an investment opportunity at the IRL stock market. So whilst I know PP isn't the only iron in the fire for FDev, and nor is Elite Dangerous, I would be very seriously concerned if one of the title's major releases turns out to be a lemon that can't keep players' interest long-term. ....

Not good for the community, not good for investors, not good for Elite Dangerous.

 

[JessieColt]

What you seem to be intentionally ignoring is that FD took advantage of the "opportunists" to reinforce the Empire bias.

Not intentionally, no. But yes, I didn't take into consideration that behind the scenes the deck would be stacked by setting up the powers to have a specific set of bonuses and effects that would contribute to tipping the scales to that one power.

This is what I am/was trying to understand.

I was clearly missing a lot by only looking at the Rank Bonuses and 1/2/3 standings. It was the finer details that I was not getting and needed help with to understand how this translates into an inequality between the powers, and how this results in favoritism towards one power or one faction.

Thank you GluttonyFang, Mikalus, Khemsa, Apos, and John Adams, for being patient and helping me to understand and see what I was missing. I really appreciate it.

 

[Ziljan]

This is what I don't understand though.

Hudson gives the same bonuses to Bounties. Only his is lower because he is not in 1/2/3 Standing. If he was in the #1 spot he would be paying out the super high bounty bonuses instead of ALD.

So how then is FD using coercion to get players to join ALD over Hudson?

1) ALD gives a Passive Bounty Bonus of 20% which entices people who aren't even affiliated to come. Then on top of that, you get the same benefits that Hudson has, plus extra...

2) These bonuses also come without all of the problems of being undermined and hated by every other faction on the map. Basically the Feds have a hard time staying in the Top 3 because they are in the middle of map and everyone hates them.

3) The Feds only have 2 factions, the Empire has 4. Which means that the Imperial factions are surrounded by allies who actually lose Merits by killing allied Imperial ships.

4) ALD has excellent trade routes where you can easily make 3500k per ton per round trip.

5) The Imperial ships don't suck.

6) Imperial permit systems give actual benefits. Big ones. Don't ask me what they are, because I won't tell you even you have a pair of rusty pliers.

7) Neighboring Imperial Factions have amazing passive economic bonuses that you get easy next door access to. Plus the system security forces are allies and won't pull you over and shoot you for no reason.

 

[John Adams]

The factions that grant a bonus to Hudson are all anti the federation ethos and actually fit in much better with Imperial ethos.

You keep mixing up the Major Factions with Powers.

Hudson is a combat focused power - his method of maintaining controlling of systems is a show of strength to maintain law and order. Doesn't sound like a democracy would like that. He's not even getting penalised for democracy, only against dictatorships.

So it has been set up for Hudson to have the most hawkish behaviour of the Federal factions and kick off against Imperial powers who have those nice patronage governments he benefits from controlling.

Looks like its working as intended.

 

[Ziljan]

You keep mixing up the Major Factions with Powers.

Hudson is a combat focused power - his method of maintaining controlling of systems is a show of strength to maintain law and order. Doesn't sound like a democracy would like that. He's not even getting penalised for democracy, only against dictatorships.

So it has been set up for Hudson to have the most hawkish behaviour of the Federal factions and kick off against Imperial powers who have those nice patronage governments he benefits from controlling.

Looks like its working as intended.

Actually Hudson has a harder time holding onto democracies with increased upkeep. FD has stated this already as an intended mechanic. That is part of the reason why his power struggles to support or expand. I believe he does better with corporate gov than anything else.

 

[khemsa]

So it has been set up for Hudson to have the most hawkish behaviour of the Federal factions and kick off against Imperial powers who have those nice patronage governments he benefits from controlling.

Looks like its working as intended.

Don't worry, FDevs got your back.
They put Hudson HQ as far away from imperial border as they possibly could. So even if we could get those "nice patronage governments," we would get shafted by distance penalties.

 

[John Adams]

Actually Hudson has a harder time holding onto democracies with increased upkeep. FD has stated this already as an intended mechanic. That is part of the reason why his power struggles to support or expand. I believe he does better with corporate gov than anything else.

No harder than Torval has holding onto patronage and she has a harder time controlling democracies than Hudson.

It makes sense from the Powers Control and Expansion Ethos.

I believe that when the system was originally designed the Ethos system is working as intended. The issue was that Powerplay had a slow uptake and still does. Originally we didn't have financial incentives in the original design and this was changed because people made the reasonable decision not to take part as the benfits of doing so outways the risk.

Then came the income payout and the masses entered, working toward that rank 5 and 50 million payout. Hence the massive differences in plegders and there reasons for pledging.

 

[ROSS-128]

Essentially, the reason ALD attracts people is not because they like her. It's because her bonuses are extremely, ridiculously OP. So OP that you'd have to be blind to not see it. She is literally an upgraded Hudson.

And apparently she can collect bounties in her expansions, which means supporting her is hugely profitable all on its own before you even consider salaries or bonuses. Literally no other faction in the game can do this. The only reason to ever join any faction other than ALD is that you're so attached to your character's roleplay that you're willing to cripple your progression. And I'm saying this as a Hudson player. Yes, I'm attached to my character's roleplay.

And that's not even getting into all the other factors, like the trade routes mentioned, or how Galnet constantly whitewashes the Empire while slandering everyone else (hey guys, isn't slavery AWESOME?), the faction-specific ships, the number of Powers in the first place (why couldn't you give one of those Empire powers to the Alliance?), or the way that Patreus and Torval are buffer states whose sole purpose is to insulate ALD and AD.

Also, why are the Alliance and Empire on opposite sides of the Federation? Wasn't the Alliance started by the Empire and Federation squabbling over territory? Shouldn't said territory be in between the Empire and the Federation, where they would be likely to squabble? What was the Empire doing up in the galactic north, over 300LY from the nearest Imperial system? What were they even thinking when they designed this?