Powerplay SNIPING in Powerplay

[ScoobyPoo]

You guys honestly think sniping is a thing?

Very VERY few people care enough about PP to bother. It's simply people getting their 10k before Thursday without a second thought what damage it may do to a power.

They don't fear death and losing their merits as the AI is as threatening as a doorstop.

 

[Ziljan]

Its like the house is on fire and you're worried about the color of the window treatments.

 

[NRCrosby]

Hello Commander Skyrun!

I respectfully disagree. Currently a system could look completely safe until the last hour, at which point all vouchers could be traded in.

With a suitably restrained limit on how many vouchers a Commander could carry at any one time, Commanders would not be able to hide progressive undermining, giving fortifying Commanders to see the growing threat.

I can't really see any major downside to this at all, at the moment. It certainly seems better than being able to offload potentially an entire cycle's worth of undermining vouchers at the last moment.

Whilst it would be great to have super visibility of voucher progress at all time, there are various limitations that prevent us from doing so.

I think some are kind of missing the point sniping as I have seen how it went down seems viable in that in gives smaller powers an ability punch back at a over bloated unequally large power its kind of like Terrorism remember 9-11.

PP is so overly unbalanced now that smaller powers have little to do against the larger unequaled powers except Fortify Fortify while the larger more unequaled power just keeps expanding and expanding they face no opposition because smaller powers don't have the manpower to appose larger powers Commander Cadoc basically said that is why he gave up his weekly analysis because is was boring and the same thing week in and week out.

And forgive me I could be wrong but has anyone even considered this could have been an empire vs empire operation to get to the #1 Spot if that were the case it was brilliant and backstabbing just like it ought to be in the empire. especially with the throne vacant could it be a bid for the throne?

I think to quote fix this in anyway is a bad idea ALD has the player base to Fortify their system if they don't over expand and if they do they ought to be punished just like this not rewarded. and obviously if this were one empire power against empire power I hate seeing you diminish a feature that would allow such great backstabbing and cloak and dagger aspects to PP what a Lore generator.

N.R.Crosby

 

[persephonius]

Stop paying out after 100%, it's so simple.

When I get Yaffled this time, could it please be by the man himself?

That is a terrible idea, as you are forcing 100% effective fortifying/underming and so why bother with analysis?

 

[ScoobyPoo]

That is a terrible idea, as you are forcing 100% effective fortifying/underming and so why bother with analysis?

But it's pointless going above 100%. Could you explain why a power would give merits for pointless actions?

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander ScoobyPoo!

I'm not sure I agree that stopping merits for over-fortifying or undermining would help that much with this.

I think that sniping is a concern in of itself. Regardless of the potential profit, the ability to snipe remains an issue.

A voucher limit would certainly be effective at reducing it's power.

Hello Commander persephonius!

I think the challenge that sniping brings is fairly unpleasant, because there's not much you can do but try to fortify everywhere as much as possible.

There is a valid argument that if offers the chance for analysis and mind games, but my own opinion is that it's like the contest between a goalie and a striker in a penalty kick: very weighted towards one outcome.

Not to mention that fortification already requires more travel.

Basically, a limit allows us to determine the potential effective strength of sniping (as folk have stated, the actual ability to snipe is not removed completely.

Good to hear opinions though!

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

But what about my comment about the challenge that sniping brings to the game?

Yeah, large scale player coordination is a good thing right? Isn't that the idea.
I'm pledged to Arissa. I wouldn't change the rules because players are playing by them.

 

[SNaomiScott]

Hello Commanders!

I would think that a number in the range of 500 - 1000 would be an appropriate start. It's a decent amount of vouchers.

In fairness, any limit that isn't sky high should cause a significant reduction in sniping capability.

As a relative noob to PowerPlay (pledged to Hudson since I first launched in my starter sidewinder but only started taking an active part recently), I'd agree that the 500-1,000 mark seems to be about right. Enough to make the trip worthwhile but not enough to entirely 'flip' a system in one drop.

As an example, I've focused on keeping myself at Rating 4, which means I generally need to earn roughly 800 merits a week. I've found that undermining I can generally make 400-500 merits an hour in my Vulture, so it takes me two hours of undermining to top up my merits for the week. I then spend the rest of my time alternating between fortification runs, mission-play and trading.

With a limit of 500 merits in any single drop I would need to do two trips into enemy space to make my weekly top-up; with a limit of 1,000 I could do the top-up in one run. Either way round, that generally represents one (sometimes two) sessions of play, so not exactly a hardship.

That said, I do also think that the 'trade-run' PP activities could possibly do with some attention. As it stands, getting 1 merit per ton of fortification or preparation means that any PowerPlayer wanting to maintain a decent rank has two choices: earn quick merits undermining the opposition or grind the merits doing trade runs. For those who have limited time to take part this effectively equates to either quick merits through combat or putting up with a low Rating doing trade runs. Of course, it is possible for a trade-run PowerPlayer to fast-track their progress, but from what I've seen the cost/benefit ratio in this case would suggest that only cash rich players can effectively fall back on this option, and even then the most a trade-run player can earn would be limited by the size of their cargo holds, which in turn is again limited by their bank balance (richer players can afford bigger cargo haulers).

Anyway, that's just my thoughts, uninformed as they may be, but I hope they're helpful.

 

[Goschti]

Sorry but why do we need the vouchers anyway?
If I'm a power and I lose a ship in a control system. Do I only get undermined if the killing party cashes in their vouchers? Why does undermining not happen instantly or after a set period of time(12 hours until ship is declared missing).
For me it is completely unreasonable that a power looses thousands of ships for the complete week and then only recognize it when the killing party informs their own power of their deed.

The same with crime sweep zones. Why do I get vouchers for the kills. If somebody is giving me the vouchers he can give me the merit too.

Sorry but for me these vouchers make no sense at all.

And why do players in a wing all get the full value in vouchers? There are just some things about powerplay that don't add up for me.

Also you would have a more open battle in powerplay. If you want players to compete indirectly give us some missions where we have to sabotage things, deliver spies undetected(smuggling) into enemy stations.

 

[ScoobyPoo]

Hello Commander ScoobyPoo!

I'm not sure I agree that stopping merits for over-fortifying or undermining would help that much with this.

I think that sniping is a concern in of itself. Regardless of the potential profit, the ability to snipe remains an issue.

A voucher limit would certainly be effective at reducing it's power.

Hello Commander persephonius!

I think the challenge that sniping brings is fairly unpleasant, because there's not much you can do but try to fortify everywhere as much as possible.

There is a vaild argument that if offers the chance for analysis and mind games, but my own opinion is that it's like the contest between a goalie and a striker in a penalty kick: very weighted towards one outcome.

Not to mention that fortification already requires more travel.

Basically, a limit allows us to determine the potential effective strength of sniping (as folk have stated, the actual ability to snipe is not removed completely.

Good to hear opinions though!

I admit it's a separate issue and wouldn't stop this 'sniping'. But would certainly make people at least think about what to do next as opposed to shooting 167 ships in the same system every week.

Having a system at 30000% undermined is a bit ridiculous don't you agree?

 

[persephonius]

Hello Commander persephonius!

I think the challenge that sniping brings is fairly unpleasant, because there's not much you can do but try to fortify everywhere as much as possible.

There is a vaild argument that if offers the chance for analysis and mind games, but my own opinion is that it's like the contest between a goalie and a striker in a penalty kick: very weighted towards one outcome.

Not to mention that fortification already requires more travel.

Basically, a limit allows us to determine the potential effective strength of sniping (as folk have stated, the actual ability to snipe is not removed completely.

Good to hear opinions though!

Respectively I have to disagree, and I believe I have more experience on this topic than most. At winters, we are the most notably opposed and undermined power, and the majority of my efforts (I have a mathematics/physics background) is applying mathematical methods to predict where the sniping may occur, and this is a pleasant and rewarding exercise. Martin Schou at Mahon also expressed this opinion. For those of us that genuinely play power-play, sniping makes a world of difference and adds a great deal to the mechanics and politics/relations between powers and player groups as well. Removing this feature removes the advantage that applying mathematical models, data logging, as well as co-ordinated strikes has on power-play, and essentially it just dumbs the whole experience down.

 

[Skyrun]

Hello Commanders!

I would think that a number in the range of 500 - 1000 would be an appropriate start. It's a decent amount of vouchers.

In fairness, any limit that isn't sky high should cause a significant reduction in sniping capability.

I think an interesting fact for finding the right limit:
I currently keep my level 4 and I had to achieve 790 merits to stay above the required 1500 merits.
So if the limit is higher than 790 merits CMDRs will keep their rank 4 with 1 run.
If the limit is lower than 790 merits CMDRs need to do an extra run or something else.

So for me and other rank 4 CMDRs this will make quite a difference if the limit is below or higher 790 merits.

Some similar calculations can be done for rank 5 CMDRs.

 

[persephonius]

Yeah, large scale player coordination is a good thing right? Isn't that the idea.
I'm pledged to Arissa. I wouldn't change the rules because players are playing by them.

I don't understand what you are trying to say? What is wrong with large scale player co-ordination? I am all for co-ordination.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Hello Commanders!

I would think that a number in the range of 500 - 1000 would be an appropriate start. It's a decent amount of vouchers.

In fairness, any limit that isn't sky high should cause a significant reduction in sniping capability.

Well, instead of just limiting it, how about a different aproch?

Currently we have two basic systems.
Transport stuff to another station
and
Kill/Attack things

The Transport missions are limited by time, money and cargo space
You can only get a fixed amount every half hour based on your rating, you can accelerate it with money, but only up to the point where you cant carry more.
Kill things have no limit at all, you just need to hunt yourself instead of flying a trade-route.
so undermining in form if killing can be sniped even by a single commander, while fortification in form of transportation needs several commanders with a lot of cargospace.

so why not using the current system for the kill types too?
with a higher rating you can earn more vouchers per kill and you have a higher cap, just like it is with transports. after the delivery there would then be a time cap that cant be skipped, so you have enough time to hunt more enemies then.
basically balance it so that both ways have a similar "merit per hour" income, so that it is fair and balanced

 

[NRCrosby]

Hello Commander ScoobyPoo!
I think the challenge that sniping brings is fairly unpleasant, because there's not much you can do but try to fortify everywhere as much as possible.

Sandro do you remember 9-11 isn't that the point in asymmetrical warfare if this were a little power like Archon then this gives the Pirates a way to hit back at the empire for their Pegasus War instead of just sitting there fortifying an fortifying against the onslaught ALD is so large so unequaled in it power base they got arrogant and didn't protect themselves properly and you just want to give a free pass to more expansion.

And what if this were Aisling Duval vying for the #1 spot and knocking down contenders again its brilliant tactics by the Ice Princess if that were the case just the way it ought to be in the empire. The Emperor is dead There ought to be some kind of power grab going on maybe this is it. AD doesn't Fortify either and clearly has the player base to pull off this kind of coordinated attack, maybe her coordinated underminers switch targets this week. I see this as a very plausible possibility.

I honestly think your looking at it in completely the wrong way your looking at it simply from the perspective of the target of sniping not from the perspective of the sniper I think both side must be equally weighed.

 

[Kneejo]

So.. what seems to be the problem? When I undermine, I get vouchers.. if I deliver them, I get merits. It's the mechanics of the game. It seems to work to take down an overexpanding, large power a notch. I only see negativity after someone put hard work in pulling this off. Bunch of whiners. That's the game.. you loose some, you win some. it takes me a while to get the credits back I lose when some ALD scumbag thinks it's funny to gank me in my home system.. I applaud whoever was behind this take down!~

Edit: perhaps powerplay should be limited to open play, but that would require a separation of the universe. Open play would allow for all players to have equal chances in preventing underminers or fortifiers from doing their task.. this is what an mmo should do.. soo, that's the problem. An adjustment to the voucher system won't solve anything.

 

[BeBoP]

I would also like to add that many powers have been suffering from the snipping issue for quite a while.
Given that it takes manpower to do that, it was more often than not ALD commanders that would employ such tactics. And now what... ALD gets a little bobo and now FDev talks about making changes in PP after weeks of silence?
Come on... that might not be your intention but this seriously appears to be handled in a clear one-sided way.

Please Sandro, if you're going to make changes, feel absolutely free, but do it consistently...not just when the imperials are the ones moaning, and address the many - and clearly much more important - issues of PP, like balance.

 

[Dingus Maximus]

This is a huge issue. Most if not all the underminig is being done in solo. I was say in one of ALD's systems for hours prior to cycle tick and didnt see one enemy cmdr in system.

Whats basically happening is groups of cmdrs or possibly just1 siting in a system undermining it for 7 days. Then with perhaps 2 hrs to go they cash it in.

Unfortunately for larger powers is not possible to fortify every single control system fully. So cmdrs are making decisions on what the game at the time os telling them. They have no idea that theres been a coordinated effort being made in solo/group modes.

This mechanic is absurd, theres no warning or info about what has/is happening in a contril system.

When you get to the size of ALD its impossible to manage.

Of course there are ways to solve this like the previous mentioned merit caps. But theres also one big way of trying to fix this. Make any merit earning potential only available in open.

At least then you can physically see them undermining and have a chance to do somthing about it. Not to mention the potential pvp battles and adhoc diplomacy this would encourage.

 

[Evil]

Would rather have a "pendulum" mechanic than progress bar's and merits, but the bandaid would work to some extent.

 

[persephonius]

This is a huge issue. Most if not all the underminig is being done in solo. I was say in one of ALD's systems for hours prior to cycle tick and didnt see one enemy cmdr in system.

That is not true at all. Undermining is usually done in open as the chance of PvP is higher than usual, and underminers generally engage in PvP when an opportunity presents itself. Also, the merits could have been acquired days earlier, and would explain why you did not see anyone.