Powerplay SNIPING in Powerplay

It's only a hassle if your intention is to snipe and you've only got a few pilots. Otherwise it's the same level of hassle to everyone. It actually hurts players with less time to devote to PP more than anyone else.

This is fixing a problem that's not really a problem by creating something worse and I AM pledged to one of the larger powers, though not ALD.

What are we talking about here Powers or Players It seems your making an argument based upon a Players circumstance not having enough time so you now want to spend what little time you have going back and forth to deliver your merits, but then admit you belong to a large Power so you already only need to make a 2 thousand merits a couple trips is all you need your other 1,000 buddies will do the same and 400,000,000,000 merits will be delivered in no time.

Admit it this is the outcome you want because it only benefits your large power and burdens small ones with few pilots who will have to do triple quadruple time to achieve the same goals hell even that wouldn't be enough

To bad I think you probably get your way too
 
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FDev has consistently caved to the Imperials each and every time they have played foolishly. (Fact, not fiction; check the cycles) We at the Federation have lost *MANY* players- even a lot who have quit playing ED altogether- because of the constant Federation bullying and dynamic goal posting that FDev blesses their favourites with. With 50% of my undermining merits disappearing every week, a cap on merits I can hang on to (for example I can go undermine 1500 in one system that needed that push over the trigger, then go undermine another for 2500 somewhere else in enemy territory not close to my control system), I can honestly tell you that *ALOT* of our player base will simply stop playing PP altogether- and for that matter I might find a new video game instead. Stop moving the goalposts. Stop screwing intelligent players and gameplay by saving other powers who are not cooperating and/or organized. Stop ruining PP and *SAVE* players from abandoning this game. Guess what? Instead of further PP debauchery why not concern yourself with optimizing the FPS on MAC (like you have with the 1.4 beta), how about causing combat loggers to leave their ship in a player interdicted instance until they either log back in or get destroyed, how about figuring out how to get MAC players Horizons? There are *SO* many things that should be addressed before further goal post moving.

Seriously.

Haku
 
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s
Hello Commanders!



Sniping isn't wrong per se, but at the moment it is somewhat a path of least resistance.

Having a cap would hopefully do two things.

1. It would limit the effectiveness of sniping. The voucher limit would determine how much sniping's effect is reduced by.
2. It would provide, during the course of the cycle, clearer indications of the state of each power, allowing supporters more of a chance to mobilise effectively.





.

Sniping is the path of least resistance ---- I disagree. It is the only path of resistance for a small power to oppose the expansion of a much larger power.
Consider a very large power with a large player base (ALD), who is steamrolling everyone with their expansions. They have the player base to overwhelm the smaller power base opposition. LTT 2667 is an example, it is in Winter space but ALd was able to post 10 times the effort of the opposition. All the while posting a similar effort in a second expansion target.
What they didn't do was secure their current systems. I wonder why, after all fortifying is so much fun ( sarcasm ). Why bother with the tedium or expense of fortifying when everyone else is too busy securing their own systems to oppose yours.

Having a cap would do two things
2) Allow supporters to mobilise effectively -----
Thereby, insuring the larger player base (ALD) will always win

So, sure, we can debate what a decent limit should be. I'm open to suggestion! But I've yet to hear a very convincing argument that this change would fundamentally be wrong for Powerplay".

This statement is very telling. What I read is, sniping is wrong and we are going to put a stop to it. The only debate is how many merits you can carry before turning them in
 
What are we talking about here Powers or Players It seems your making an argument based upon a Players circumstance not having enough time so you now want to spend what little time you have going back and forth to deliver your merits, but then admit you belong to a large Power so you already only need to make a 2 thousand merits a couple trips is all you need your other 1,000 buddies will do the same and 400,000,000,000 merits will be delivered in no time.

Admit it this is the outcome you want becuase it only benefits your large power and burdens small ones with few pilots who will have to do triple time to achieve the same goals

To bad I think you probably get your way too

No the opposite. I don't want this. We want the same result, but for different reasons.

You are making the argument based on it affecting smaller powers more. It doesn't. It only affects smaller powers more if they are attempting to deliver lots of merits in a short space of time as a surprise. However, I don't see a problem with this.

On a player by player basis it affects those who don't have a lot of time as they cannot afford to spend most of that time flying hundreds of light years. This change would kill PP for me, I think.
 
Hello Commander chagnampra!

Limiting Powerplay voucher capacity.

I think is a *great* idea. I'm going to look into the feasibility of doing it.

Obviously, there is a counter argument that it forces more "busy" work for Commander's undermining, but my personal take is that it could provide a *much* bigger benefit than cost.

Top banana, Commander!

Hello Mr. Sammarco,

While I naturally commend you for taking interest in trying to balance some of the features of PowerPlay, I cannot help but strongly disagree with your opinion on restricting an individual's capability to collect merits via Undermining as being a first priority. I believe it directly counters the previous balancing of increasing Undermining merits gained through Combat Zones and Interdictions so that players could more-easily Undermine other factions, and now you are seeking to limit a player's capacity to do so; you are absolutely correct that there would be a level of bureaucracy to telling you 'Stop collecting and go turn in if you want more,' but that's not where it stops.

I believe that it is wrong and a very Normative statement to come out and say that there are 'benefits' for limiting players' maximum merits without first stating what the positive and negative outcomes could be. One benefit to draw from this is that the Factions with the largest playerbases will be able to benefit more from the Mob Mentality, but a negative result would be that the smaller groups like Torval, Patreus, Sirius, or even Winters will be even more hard-pressed to respond to attacks without constantly having to fortify, while groups like Hudson and Lavigny-Duval will continue to reign with their massive numbers and severely-imbalanced pledge bonuses.

Understandably, you are a developer, and may not have as many of the experiences as regular players get, but have you ever flown around holding several thousand merits before in the game, or spoken to people who have done so? Knowing that, at any moment, if something were to go wrong, or you were to die in space, all those merits would vanish and no longer exist, that all of those hours could be destroyed in a single instance because you refused to turn them in. It is that kind of level of risk that drives players to even venture out into Open play, and no matter what mode you are in, this form of risk persists through all 3. Placing a cap on that will only help to sever another valve of excitement that gets players going in E:D.

As quoted by one of the Winters's community members in light of this planned change,

This is absolutely shocking. I hate to say it guys, but if merit limits are implemented:

I'll fly with you all,
I'll hang out with you all, but
I will resign my commission with the Shadow President and head out for Sgr A*.

An absolute slap in the face and sign of total disconnection with the player base.

Last but not least, I think it is also bad policy to ignore current player bases that have been requesting Developer assistance in handling bugs and issues with key features of PowerPlay, in favor of restricting their capability to participate in PowerPlay. As a single example, let's take the fact that Hudson, the President of the democratic world, considers Democratic minor factions about as useful in fortification as Anarchy governments; he benefits more from his territories being Empire-related governments than from Federation-related governments. How messed up is that?

While ultimately I cannot force you to stop what your current plans are to change PowerPlay for the better or worse, I can at least say that I think you are focussing on the wrong places to change. Still, I thank you for continuing to help develop the Elite:Dangerous experience.


Cheers!

-Leon Markus
 
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FDev has consistently caved to the Imperials each and every time they have played foolishly. (Fact, not fiction; check the cycles) We at the Federation have lost *MANY* players- even a lot who have quit playing ED altogether- because of the constant Federation bullying and dynamic goal posting that FDev blesses their favourites with. With 50% of my undermining merits disappearing every week, a cap on merits I can hang on to (for example I can go undermine 1500 in one system that needed that push over the trigger, then go undermine another for 2500 somewhere else in enemy territory not close to my control system), I can honestly tell you that *ALOT* of our player base will simply stop playing PP altogether- and for that matter I might find a new video game instead. Stop moving the goalposts. Stop screwing intelligent players and gameplay by saving other powers who are not cooperating and/or organized. Stop ruining PP and *SAVE* players from abandoning this game. Guess what? Instead of further PP debauchery why not concern yourself with optimizing the FPS on MAC (like you have with the 1.4 beta), how about causing combat loggers to leave their ship in a player interacted instance until they either log back in or get destroyed, how about figuring out how to get MAC players Horizons? There are *SO* many things that should be addressed before further goal post moving.

Seriously.

Haku

Yeah and the more they do it the more players leave for the empire exasperating the issue cause its obvious who the winner is going to be or at least who has a easy time staying on top getting the benefits even if you play just a little each week just like the last poster said. this is only going to get worse and when it does I am out of here because it truly is getting pointless.
 
No the opposite. I don't want this. We want the same result, but for different reasons.

You are making the argument based on it affecting smaller powers more. It doesn't. It only affects smaller powers more if they are attempting to deliver lots of merits in a short space of time as a surprise. However, I don't see a problem with this.

On a player by player basis it affects those who don't have a lot of time as they cannot afford to spend most of that time flying hundreds of light years. This change would kill PP for me, I think.

Well then we agree as a player it will require more time from you traveling but its impact on your power will be little because you got thousands of pilots all in the same boat all you need do is collect a couple thousand, sure if your going for Rank 5 yeah its a burden on you a player, but then if were just talking a player ranking where is the Power Play in that where is the Power period thats just merit grinding for the sack of personal gain not moving your power forward or defending it
 
It is the only path of resistance for a small power to oppose the expansion of a much larger power.
Consider a very large power with a large player base (ALD), who is steamrolling everyone with their expansions. They have the player base to overwhelm the smaller power base opposition. LTT 2667 is an example, it is in Winter space but ALd was able to post 10 times the effort of the opposition. All the while posting a similar effort in a second expansion target.

Kudos to you! You've understood why ALD was undermined
 
I've always liked your random end-time idea Viajero. It would make the last 24/36 hrs or so very interesting not knowing exactly when the cycle will flip.
 
Well then we agree as a player it will require more time from you traveling but its impact on your power will be little because you got thousands of pilots all in the same boat all you need do is collect a couple thousand, sure if your going for Rank 5 yeah its a burden on you a player, but then if were just talking a player ranking where is the Power Play in that where is the Power period thats just merit grinding for the sack of personal gain not moving your power forward or defending it
It negatively affects players and powers. •There is 0 way to communicate goals with other players in game of the same power. "Herding cats"
•The game already rewards over fortification/undermining

So how on earth, with this proposed change, is a power without a massive player base supposed to be effective at doing literally anything?

This change is a direct nerf to any power without a massive player base, and it's frankly insulting that this is even an issue they are addressing in lieu of the many other issues plaguing PP.

If this change goes through you'll see many more people stop caring about PP.
 
The guys sniping didn't do anything wrong. They thought of a tactic within the mechanics of the game. Good for them. Powerplay cannot be fought or defended against in the traditional sense. It's all done behind closed doors
 
Pretty sure we Archon players fortify based on the assumption that everything will be successfully undermined (because it is), and set goals early in the cycle.

And we have crazy fortifiers who do stellar work.
 
Not to mention that this is a soft-scale herding of the undermining merit grinders.

Merit grinder has to return every 1000 merits, then 1/10 of them has basic common sense and notices a system is fully undermined and decides to do 20 LY more because why not. Instead of sticking to the same system to farm all the merits he needs and having merits wasted in the end of the cycle. That's quite a lot of more effective undermining merits coming towards the smaller powers because why not do the organization for Arissa's part.

The timing of such a change, providing limitations in order for all players to have a grasp of what is happening in powers at all times is extremely suspicious, seeing how it took so many weeks of allowing the broken Arissa bonuses to leech players from everyone and reach the peek of the player count they enjoy.

Fix the bonuses, allow the playerbase to distribute properly, then we can negotiate about limitations which help powers react to what is happening.
 
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Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Commanders!

I understand the argument that it will be harder for smaller powers to attack larger powers successfully. A reasonable point.

I also understand that some of the concepts behind sniping (coordinated attacks and what have you) are not necessarily bad.

We've been discussing this in the office for a bit and we're checking some numbers.

Feel free to keep up the discussion, some very interesting points raised. Obviously nothing is going to happen right away, there are some other options to look at as well.

I'll keep you informed.
 
It seems to me sniping is an artificial construct that resulting from merits having to be turned in to show undermining progress. If you're undermining a system, depending on the certain activity would really dictate whether the undermining would be immediate or eventual. If a someone takes out defense ships in that system why even base undermining on vouchers turned in? The effort has already been put into destroying ships and regardless of whether they turn in a representation of that kill it has been done none the less hurting the system they were attacking. But for the reward however it does make sense you would have to bring them back, so the voucher still has use. For something like cargo it would make sense of actually having to turn things in to have the undermining complete, because they actually don't benefit or hurt one side until the cargo reaches it's destination, and those things are already limited based on cargo hold. So in this case, a commander would not get any of the personal benefits for their work unless they turn in vouchers, however the undermining progress would be reported immediately (in some cases) since that damage would already be done, or it would be in a more restrictive amount as in cargo that already has proper limitations.
 
Hello Commanders!

I understand the argument that it will be harder for smaller powers to attack larger powers successfully. A reasonable point.

I also understand that some of the concepts behind sniping (coordinated attacks and what have you) are not necessarily bad.

We've been discussing this in the office for a bit and we're checking some numbers.

Feel free to keep up the discussion, some very interesting points raised. Obviously nothing is going to happen right away, there are some other options to look at as well.

I'll keep you informed.

Thanks Sandro.
 
Feel free to keep up the discussion, some very interesting points raised. Obviously nothing is going to happen right away, there are some other options to look at as well.

My only problem with sniping is that there is only one option for defense: a boring postal sim that I have NEVER done and will NEVER EVER do. So for me, a defense against Sniping/Undermining might as well not exist. I am frankly shocked that people Fortify at all, except in the 3 factions where buying rank 5 is worthwhile (ALD, Hudson, LYR)

Someone brought up the idea of a Scout role where people could "Scan" their own systems to get an update of the unclaimed Merit activity, and possibly earn Merits themselves by gathering Intel. This might finally add a role for Explorer/Spy types. It would also finally encourage some PVP by actually putting opposing players in the SAME SYSTEM to grind Merits.
 
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