Powerplay SNIPING in Powerplay

[NRCrosby]

As Winters you know from long experience that you're always going to be heavily undermined. For ALD the opposition we face is extremely sporadic. A couple of weeks ago we barely had any opposition at all and fortifying everything in such a case would be a bad idea as there would be no way to prevent bad apples being prepped in the following week.

The hell with prepping ALD is over prepped and expanded already and that is why this happened to her you guys have to much territory and your complaining because you want more, Fortify what you have every week or lose some and get manageable problem solved that is what we did at Winters we didn't complain we needed to Fortify or at least till now, but I am sure going to complain if after weeks and weeks of hauling Fort Packs and no expansions to speak of you guys get a free pass to more expansions and no need to Fortify what you have.

Thus we have to use strategic fortification, which becomes impossible if there's no way to tell which systems are under attack until the final few hours, last night we jumped from three systems undermined (a bad enough result) to fourteen in the last couple of hours. Had we known of the undermining in these systems earlier we could have prevented some of this, it's highly unlikely given the efficient operation run against us that we would have completely avoided turmoil even with foreknowledge, but at least we would have had a chance to oppose it, which would have been far more fun.

You oppose it buy Fortifying that how you oppose it you cover your butt in armor then go into battle you don't go out half naked or you get what you get and you guys got it and now your whining like sore losers. If Arissa did this and I can see how her power would, I would if I were her because you guys were ripe for it, Cadoc said so week after week in his analysis he was so bored saying it he quit doing it maybe Arissa has been reading Cadoc reports and finally said hey he is right we have an opportunity here.

 

[yul7896]

Obviously you have not played much PP. If I have 20K merits on me, and you destroy me, I lose those merits. Understand now?

Oh you mean like combat bonds and bounties?

 

[Arbitration]

Hello Commanders!

I would think that a number in the range of 500 - 1000 would be an appropriate start. It's a decent amount of vouchers.

In fairness, any limit that isn't sky high should cause a significant reduction in sniping capability.

I must point out that it takes about 20-30 minutes to get 500 merits for undermining. It would then take another 20 minutes to haul myself back to a control system to drop them off, and another 20 minutes to get back and continue undermining. "Sniping" really only happens because of time efficiency. If you have to continually fly back and forth, the entire thing is pointless. No one is going to spend an hour to get a couple hundred merits. Putting an arbitrary limit on the number of merits that could be carried at any one time would completely unbalance the ability of small groups to do damage to large groups. The groups with the most players would be able to put down more merits, and the little guys who will work hard will not be able to compete because they will only be able to hold the same amount. 10*500 = 5000, 5*500= 2500.

I like the idea that some Commanders have put forth that it should be a continual back and forth instead of a deadline based thing. I think that would strike a good balance between being sniped and having to make strategic decisions about fortification. It would not allow sniping to occur because without a deadline, holding on to merits is irrelevant. It would force Commanders to immediately drop their merits, and allow the targeted faction to make a fortification response.

It already takes playing the whole week long in very organized, large crews to make these sorts of effects happen. If merit limits are implemented, I think you will find that many Commanders would simply rather go back to exploration, trading, or just play CQC. Or just play Planet Coaster when it comes out

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

Can I just make absolutely clear: this discussion of sniping has nothing to do with any conspiracy or bias towards or against any power. Period. Any suggestion that it does is simply incorrect and only serves to derail the discussion. Could I ask that we keep the thread clear of such allegations?

So, the reason I'm posting here is simply because I saw what I thought was a good idea that was worth discussion. It may have been raised many times before, but, alas, I have but one pair of eyes.

*Every* power is at risk of, and can suffer from sniping.

Sniping isn't wrong per se, but at the moment it is somewhat a path of least resistance.

Having a cap would hopefully do two things.

1. It would limit the effectiveness of sniping. The voucher limit would determine how much sniping's effect is reduced by.
2. It would provide, during the course of the cycle, clearer indications of the state of each power, allowing supporters more of a chance to mobilise effectively.

Also, to the folk that suggested it: I like the idea of rating determining the amount you can carry, on face value. I'd need to have a chew over it to make sure though.

Another point to remember concerning "larger" powers: the costs of running a big powerbase are significant - overheads mean that it normally doesn't take much to really rock the boat and cause lots of trouble.

So, sure, we can debate what a decent limit should be. I'm open to suggestion! But I've yet to hear a very convincing argument that this change would fundamentally be wrong for Powerplay.

 

[persephonius]

Your analogy would only be appropriate if the side with the full set couldn't see any of the other sides pieces until they declare checkmate.

- - - Updated - - -



No, I think the fact that you can't see what opposition you're facing is silly. I also think the powerplay bonuses, items etc. all need to be rebalanced, but that's a different topic.

Well, you now expect it, and so you can fortify and pull yourselves out of turmoil, what have you lost? Nothing, you are being very premature here, you can easily pull yourselves out of this situation with effort rather than whine about it here. The two week cycle to loosing systems is the counter to sniping in this sense.

 

[chagnampra]

Removing this feature removes the advantage that applying mathematical models, data logging, as well as co-ordinated strikes has on power-play, and essentially it just dumbs the whole experience down.

The point is not to remove sniping, but to modify it. In other words, the balance of power is currently stacked in favour of the underminer who holds on to 1000s of vouchers, before releasing them, and the defending power has little or no time to respond (except to fortify everything, which is a challenge and a half in itself!). If the vouchers needed to be cashed in gradually, at least the defending power would have a little bit more time to respond. This does NOT guarantee success for the defending power but at least gives that power a fighting chance.

Having said that, of course, even if a voucher limit was introduced, a well-coordinated undermining effort could still create significant last minute effects. Personally, I think this positively modifies and redresses the balance of actions within Powerplay, while still retaining the risk of Powers being undermined. This needn't be seen as a 'dumbed down' easy mode.

 

[persephonius]

Hello Commanders!

But I've yet to hear a very convincing argument that this change would fundamentally be wrong for Powerplay.

I have not seen a convincing argument that it is fundamentally right either!

 

[fergal]

Thanks for posting as always Sandro.

I just feel there are actual bugs that players of PP can't even get acknowledged, for this to get your attention (I know its happened to ALD) over everything else is disappointing.

How about systems in Turmoil still giving income at the end of the turn? At the moment a system in turmoil works identically as any other control system, although the galnet projected figures think its different.

 

[NRCrosby]

Your analogy would only be appropriate if the side with the full set couldn't see any of the other sides pieces until they declare checkmate.

OK fine Stratego then Jeez

 

[persephonius]

The point is not to remove sniping, but to modify it. In other words, the balance of power is currently stacked in favour of the underminer who holds on to 1000s of vouchers, before releasing them, and the defending power has little or no time to respond. If the vouchers needed to be cashed in gradually, at least the defending power would have a little bit more time to respond. This does NOT guarantee success for the defending power but at least gives that power a fighting chance.

Having said that, of course, even if a voucher limit was introduced, a well-coordinated undermining effort could still create significant last minute effects. Personally, I think this positively modifies and redresses the balance of actions within Powerplay, while still retaining the risk of Powers being undermined. This needn't be seen as a 'dumbed down' easy mode.

It is 'easy mode' because everyone can see changes in real time. This removes the advantage of those that log the data routinely to make predictions, such as myself.

 

[chagnampra]

It is 'easy mode' because everyone can see changes in real time. This removes the advantage of those that log the data routinely to make predictions, such as myself.

Like I said, it doesn't preclude the possibility of last minute sniping, but I think it would result in a fairer system for all concerned.

 

[Miniboc]

Just when ALD get a slap in the face they complain. This is such bullsh*t. Why where you not complaining till now? It is because when things are going your way everything is good and once that changes all we hear you cry about is bug, broken, fix, waaaaaaa. Then you try to do operation janus and you get another slap in the face and now its bug, broken, fix instances, waaaaa. We at hudson are laughing at you so much.

 

[chagnampra]

Just when ALD get a slap in the face they complain. This is such <snip>. Why where you not complaining till now? It is because when things are going your way everything is good and once that changes all we hear you cry about is bug, broken, fix, waaaaaaa. Then you try to do operation janus and you get another slap in the face and now its bug, broken, fix instances, waaaaa. We at hudson are laughing at you so much.

I created the thread and I don't support ALD.

 

[persephonius]

Like I said, it doesn't preclude the possibility of last minute sniping, but I think it would result in a fairer system for all concerned.

Fairer system? Removing this system makes preventing an expansion of a combat ethos power impossible. It also regiments a certain power with a 492% bounty bonus to acquire more and more grinders. It prevents the rewards of co-ordination and dulls the desire to create communities centred around Power-play, as the need for co-ordination is reduced. It also makes a lot of my work redundant, and the work of the other analysts out there.
...
There already is an adequate system against sniping. It takes two weeks for a power to shed systems, and when in turmoil with adequate effort, a power can return themselves to a CC surplus, and so this whole argument is very pre-mature.

 

[NRCrosby]

Hello Commanders!

Can I just make absolutely clear: this discussion of sniping has nothing to do with any conspiracy or bias towards or against any power. Period. Any suggestion that it does is simply incorrect and only serves to derail the discussion. Could I ask that we keep the thread clear of such allegations?

The problem is Sandro's you can state that as an opinion not a fact, the opposing opinions being formed that their is a bias comes from evidence that FD jumps when a large power base calls and ignores the smaller power bases. you guys seem to literally protect the bad choices made by these larger powers kind of like the TARP bailouts. And while it is my opinion that there seems to be some kind of bias and favoritism with the some of the Empires in PP I have this opinion based upon evidence gathered over the course of PP can you present evidence that this it is not so beyond simply stating it.

Only hard evidence will sway my opinion.

Here is the thing we in Winters went through this very same thing small as we are we over expanded we were sniped we complained nothing so we knew what we had to do we addressed it ourselves by redirecting our efforts to Fortifying to guard against it and that is how it ought to be handled now in my opinion, and any other kind of response is just another piece of evidence place in the evidence box for future reference.

 

[Chef-Jitsu]

Hello Commander chagnampra!

Limiting Powerplay voucher capacity.

I think is a *great* idea. I'm going to look into the feasibility of doing it.

Obviously, there is a counter argument that it forces more "busy" work for Commander's undermining, but my personal take is that it could provide a *much* bigger benefit than cost.

Top banana, Commander!

This is a bit ridiculous. This is a game mechanic and as long as I am willing to gamble then I should be able to carry as many merits as I want. If I die wile hording merits then it can be devastating. It is a big risk. The real fix is getting rid of Solo so I cant smuggle my merits and hide from players who have locked a system down so I can continue to grind. The problem I see is Solo and a group that thought that they were immune to a tactic that they undoubtedly use. Sorry but I do think PP is broken and as long as FD have us playing a Board Game but does not share the rule book (lots of mechanics you wont reveal) there will be issues. I do love the concept of it but it needs a lot of work. Limiting the merits I carry is not a fix I risk a lot doing this. Maybe the mechanic dealing with trade merits needs to be re looked at or maybe those that are in powers using this mechanic need to be forward thinking and approach it with strategy. Ever heard of the fog of war? Well this is it in action...

 

[NRCrosby]

maybe those that are in powers using this mechanic need to be forward thinking and approach it with strategy. Ever heard of the fog of war? Well this is it in action...

Exactly and as I have said what if this was Arissa its backstabbing at its finest and only with Fog of War would it be possible Could a Civil War in the Empire be brewing and this is just the first shot fired?

Can anyone say Cat fight LOL

 

[JessieColt]

Of course there are ways to solve this like the previous mentioned merit caps. But theres also one big way of trying to fix this. Make any merit earning potential only available in open.

At least then you can physically see them undermining and have a chance to do somthing about it. Not to mention the potential pvp battles and adhoc diplomacy this would encourage.

Stop trying to force players to be PK Fodder by rewarding only those who play in Open.

It is not a valid solution to the problems that happen in PP

 

[persephonius]

Another significant issue here is that because the players that performed this snipe did not step up and claim responsibility, it has been wrongly estimated exactly what happened here. It was not a major co-ordinated strike exploiting a particular mechanic at all. It was a well planned and thought-out strike performed by a rather small and focused group of players. It was performed in open, quite early in the cycle. The systems selected were chosen through analysis to maximise the chance they would not be cancelled by fortification. It was a herculean effort by those involved to meticulously log and accumulate merits efficiently to maximise spread and required many hours of work by those involved, as they were not many. This was not a half-ar*ed operation that was easily achieved due to a weak power play mechanic. Indeed, every power I asked about aiding in this considered me nuts for opposing ALD! This operation was weeks in the making, and the frustrations of those involved are spilling over here because what we achieved was a complete success, but this success appears to have been too significant because everyone is asking for changes. Basically, Winters players are OP and they need a nerf?

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander NRCrosby!

I cannot stop folk believing what they want, but I can respectfully ask them not to derail this thread about the mechanics of sniping.

Which I am doing.