Proposal Discussion Elite: Dangerous is a "fly by wire" flight sim?!

[Valenquo]

Just for the sake of the argument, this is how full Newtonian combat in Frontier: Elite 2 looks like.

http://youtu.be/9UMIbdN0UFE

So the only thing they have caped in ED is that instead of being able to fly at let us say 300m per second second indefinitely, they just caped the maxed velocity, when using conventional drives, to 300m per seconds.

The whole point of having a constant acceleration in FE2 (other than realism) was that you needed enough speed to actually reach the other planets in the system with your conventional drive right? But that took so long time that you had the ability to accelerate time in-game.

Now in ED, as it is multiplayer you cannot do that, therefore the only way to travel within the system was the introduction of "frame shift drives". So suddenly there is no real reason to be able to reach high acceleration and velocities since any practical travel would take to long.

The only time left using conventional drives would be docking, undocking and such, which require low velocities, or dogfighting. But as seen in the video that is quite a feat when being able to use constant acceleration. So the developers decided to cap that since there was no other practical use for the ships to travel at such high speeds. And by doing that they make sure that more pilots will be able to have fun dog frighting.

I would love to see how ED would play with flight mechanics like in FE2, but I am happy at the way it works right now as well.

 

[Kerrash]

^^ Eloquently put Commander ^^

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

To be honest, and this is purely subjective of course, but I cut my teeth on the original elite. For all its technical brilliance and accuracy, I personally thought that Frontier and FFE were simply not fun to play in terms of dogfighting.

I found it a chore "jousting" with tiny little ships buzzing around like mosquitoes, never able to kill be, but an annoyance to stop me fast travelling

Indeed it were these flight characteristics which delayed my backing of this game slightly.

From what I have seen, and read, ED is a fantastic compromise between the accurate flight model of the recent games, and the "fun" model of the original (and best imo)

but this is just my 2p (arguably not worth that much either given I haven't played yet)

 

[laforge]

Ok. I just learned that flying in Elite: Dangerous is going to be based on traditional fly by wire "gravitational" aerial combat mechanics, and not, like in the earlier Elite titles, where you would disengage main engines during combat and "skate" around your target using thrusters. Is this true?!

It doesn't make any sense to me. Whats the point of flying weightless in space, if you can't turn your ship on its axis and thrust steer in your desired direction, just like in the previous games?

Unfortunately you are correct.

Based on the experience of Newtonian dogfights without flight assist in the previous games - Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters - they made a 180 degree turn in their develoment decisions and take the route of the majority of other space sims by introducing maps in which you fly around with a certain maximal speed.

Therefore a great chance in having a true revolution in the genre is lost. We are now flying around in supercruise from map to map without the posssibility of a short trip from a ground station to an orbital station in conventional flight. A basic scenario which should IMO be in the alpha in the first place if you consider the scope and spirit of the game. Not some dogfight wing-commander scenario missions in a map.

But with my opinion I belong to a minority here. Most important for people here seem to be the support of occulus rift...

 

[Patrick_68000]

From the moment we do not have the flight system of FE2, it is essential.
Because in FE2, except the automatic piloting ...

 

[Associat0r]

@laforge
I don't think you understand supercruise, since it's freeform and not flight from map to map also it still obeys newtonian laws, allowing for gravitational slingshots around celestial bodies.

@Globusdiablo
Elite: Dangerous uses full newtonian rigid body dynamics, not just a simple point mass like FE2/FFE, also they used the FBW too resulting in planes in space emulation, you will notice this if you fly slow enough in "Set Speed" mode, anyway I would suggest you just ignore the naysayers, since most of them don't understand basic physics.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Opens popcorn...

Waits for the next battle in the Great N******** Wars to begin...

They'd better bloody not .

I've only just come of the medication from the last time.

Us mods still get a nervous twitch everytime we see that word.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

they made a 180 degree turn in their develoment decisions and take the route of the majority of other space sims by introducing maps in which you fly around with a certain maximal speed.

As I understand it that is simply not true, I have read that if you REALLY wanted to you could point your nose towards a planet a long way away and fly to it.

as for the fast travel, what else do you suggest? Frontier worked ok because you had accelerated time. Without that it would have taken bloody ages to get anywhere. You cant have accelerated time in a multiplayer universe.

But with my opinion I belong to a minority here. Most important for people here seem to be the support of occulus rift...

I take it you don't think VR is important then? Personally I think it is something really exciting, even more so after looking at various videos, but different strokes and all that.

(PS going on your username...... you wear one yourself most of the time........ hypocrite )

 

[laforge]

@laforge
I don't think you understand supercruise, since it's freeform and not flight from map to map also it still obeys newtonian laws, allowing for gravitational slingshots around celestial bodies.

Well, if you see a difference between a) no acceleration in SC and b) you at rest in a given region of interest (= map), then it would higly be not immersive, since orbits and proper gravity slingshots do not require to have any engines turned on, especially they do not require to make any alignment adjustments. As a compromise one could make SC only have visible effects when it accelerates - if we really do not have to make alignment adjustments in that mode. EDIT: and of course only consume fuel at accelerations.

Still you will be forced to fly from one map to the next unless you can create your own maps (by turning off this mode). And you still can not travel to an orbital station from the ground conventionally.

as for the fast travel, what else do you suggest? Frontier worked ok because you had accelerated time. Without that it would have taken bloody ages to get anywhere. You cant have accelerated time in a multiplayer universe.

No, I like the supercruise idea and its also the only option to get close to the previous games.

(PS going on your username...... you wear one yourself most of the time........ hypocrite )

haha

 

[Globusdiablo]

- they made a 180 degree turn in their develoment decisions and take the route of the majority of other space sims by introducing maps in which you fly around with a certain maximal speed.

Therefore a great chance in having a true revolution in the genre is lost. We are now flying around in supercruise from map to map without the posssibility of a short trip from a ground station to an orbital station in conventional flight.

They'd better bloody not .

I've only just come of the medication from the last time.

Us mods still get a nervous twitch everytime we see that word.

Oh boy...

 

[Globusdiablo]

Just for the sake of the argument, this is how full Newtonian combat in Frontier: Elite 2 looks like.

http://youtu.be/9UMIbdN0UFE

And by doing that they make sure that more pilots will be able to have fun dog frighting.

I would love to see how ED would play with flight mechanics like in FE2, but I am happy at the way it works right now as well.

Excellent video, and excellent point Valenquo. This is what space combat should be, right?

But, I'm not sure why pilots would enjoy dog frighting... Are they even an issue? What have they done to deserve such a treatment?...

 

[Associat0r]

@laforge
Stop spreading this missinfo, the whole point of supercruise is to not have this not map to map nonsnese, read the DDF proposal

 

[Globusdiablo]

@laforge
Stop spreading this missinfo, the whole point of supercruise is to not have this not map to map nonsnese, read the DDF proposal

Temper please... your spelling is taking a pounding..

 

[Mike Evans]

@laforge
Stop spreading this missinfo, the whole point of supercruise is to not have this not map to map nonsnese, read the DDF proposal

Unless you consider a whole star system as a map

 

[Dejay]

I think you can see it this way:

Velocities larger than 300-500 meter per second makes dogfights problematic (laforge posted a videolink that explained how to dogfight without jousting in frontier, and it works, but it's not accessible to most gamers and makes the fighting more complicated). Faster velocities also practically make distances larger, so you see other ships smaller and can't appreciate the visual glory.

Supercruise (afaik) is a mode that allows limitless velocities, but only out of combat. When someone attacks you, you drop out of supercruise (mass locked?) and have to fly at combat velocities. This eliminates the jousting and meticulous approach of a limitless top speed model. The only downside to supercruise is that your agility and turn rate is reduced. When you're out of combat, you'll be flying at supercruise, and basically that is the real flight model.

The gameplay effect of this is practically the same as flying at limitless speeds, with enemies having the ability to reduce your velocity to intercept you. I thought about a "velocity inhibitor" device to avoid limiting top speeds out of combat, but dropping out of supercruise is basically the same thing.

So basically yes, you have a fully newtonian flight model, but any ship that attacks you has the "magic" ability to limit your top speed.

The only thing that I would wish for is that your rotational speed would be limitless in normal mode with flight assist off. It would probably be pretty useless, but I'd want it anyway

 

[Dejay]

Unless you consider a whole star system as a map

Ohhhh I just read this in the DDF, are volumetric magnetic fields around planets still on? Sounds awesome! Will it look like Solaris? Giev eye candy!

It also alters the visuals from the cockpit significantly, for example other ships travelling at super-cruise are rendered as distorted flaring lights, visible way beyond normal visible range, and other astronomical effects, like magnetic fields become accentuated too, rendering them visible in many cases.

 

[laforge]

@laforge
Stop spreading this missinfo, the whole point of supercruise is to not have this not map to map nonsnese, read the DDF proposal

In every region of interest you are in small bounds in velocity space. For example longer trips on planets and almost all interplanetary travel is not feasible within such bounds. Call it a region of interest, I call it a (very tiny) map. There is in principle nothing wrong from a programmers point of view with such an ansatz, if you would not always feel these bounds.

When someone attacks you, you drop out of supercruise (mass locked?) and have to fly at combat velocities.

I read that already before somewhere. Drop out relative to the speed of what? Can someone elaborate what this means exactly?

It also alters the visuals from the cockpit significantly, for example other ships travelling at super-cruise are rendered as distorted flaring lights, visible way beyond normal visible range, and other astronomical effects, like magnetic fields become accentuated too, rendering them visible in many cases.

If we have this when traveling in SC at constant speed relative to something, than this is what I meant a post before, it would not be immersive.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Ohhhh I just read this in the DDF, are volumetric magnetic fields around planets still on? Sounds awesome! Will it look like Solaris? Giev eye candy!

Why does this game just seem to be getting more and more darn delicious?...

Beta baby.. Beta.....

 

[Crayfish]

Velocities larger than 300-500 meter per second makes dogfights problematic (laforge posted a videolink that explained how to dogfight without jousting in frontier, and it works, but it's not accessible to most gamers and makes the fighting more complicated).

It's a shame when a game is dumbed down to suit a perception of what "most gamers" can handle. In Frontier the problem was more of a presentation one than an actual issue with the combat. There was no way for pilots to learn the abstract concept of fighting in a properly newtonian space.

As any game designer knows, the ideal game is easy to learn and hard to master. With Frontier they got it to hard to learn and hard to master. The risk with simplifying combat is that it becomes easy to learn and easy to master. Things like auto-aim and a maximum speed limit are moves in this direction.

I'm hopeful that Frontier will achieve the easy to learn and hard to master ideal. Concepts such as heat management, silent running mode, flight-assist off and sub-system targeting show promise for this.

The only thing that I would wish for is that your rotational speed would be limitless in normal mode with flight assist off. It would probably be pretty useless, but I'd want it anyway

If you're going to limit linear velocity then it makes just as much sense to limit rotational velocity. The same rationale, whatever that is, can be applied.

 

[Globusdiablo]

It's a shame when a game is dumbed down to suit a perception of what "most gamers" can handle. In Frontier the problem was more of a presentation one than an actual issue with the combat. There was no way for pilots to learn the abstract concept of fighting in a properly newtonian space.

As any game designer knows, the ideal game is easy to learn and hard to master. With Frontier they got it to hard to learn and hard to master. The risk with simplifying combat is that it becomes easy to learn and easy to master. Things like auto-aim and a maximum speed limit are moves in this direction.

I'm hopeful that Frontier will achieve the easy to learn and hard to master ideal. Concepts such as heat management, silent running mode, flight-assist off and sub-system targeting show promise for this.



If you're going to limit linear velocity then it makes just as much sense to limit rotational velocity. The same rationale, whatever that is, can be applied.

Well put. Though I'm assuming that it is Elite: Dangerous that you are hopeful will achieve the ideal? Not Frontier.