Proposal Discussion Elite: Dangerous is a "fly by wire" flight sim?!

[Globusdiablo]

@noodle and @Associat0r

Agree to disagree gentlemen

What a pointless thread, indeed. The whole thing has been discussed to death. I'm happy E: D doesn't have FE2/FFE's flight mechanics and is closer to the original Elite. As it should be.

Why are you posting in a thread you think is pointless? Now THAT is truly pointless...

 

[Philip Coutts]

Which I don't think anyone would disagree with

I will miss elements of the fully Newtonian model, but I think the combat is more fun, I can understand the MP reasons why full Newtonian is probably impossible, and I'm open to the idea the FD might address some of my concerns in exciting and interesting ways - like the frame shift drive.

That's a very valid point. We haven't had a chance to play around with things like the Frame Shift Drive or indeed hyperspace. At the moment we are making educated guesses as to how they will function in-game based on the information Frontier have given. I'm happy to wait and see how the whole game fits together. I really like the Flight model as it is so far but that's only my opinion. I can't wait to try out the Frame Shift Drive and see how it works.

 

[noodle]

I'm sorry, but what is there to "discuss"?

Some of us are enjoying the discussion simply because we find it interesting. I thought that was the point of conversations? I don't set out to influence something with every conversation I have

 

[Associat0r]

Please don't be rude. If there is an artificially imposed maximum speed, and an artificially restricted range of movement, then it cannot possibly be described as Newtonian. So it would be nice if you could avoid dismissing someone's opinion as "nonsense" just because you don't agree with it.

It's imposed by the flight control system, you can easily do that with a real-life space ship, therefore your statement is nonsense.

I disagree. I think there are a lot of questions still to answer.

Like what?

Then you have some anger issues that you need to address. Please don't take them out on me.

I have no anger issues.

Can't speak for the whole thread, but my posts certainly don't do that.

Your posts are spreading the same nonsense.

It's not "our" game. It's "a" game. And like all games, it will have some elements that are good, some elements that are bad, and some elements that are entirely a matter of personal preference. I'm in the alpha and loving it, so any comments I make are entirely constructive. Anything I don't like about the game is a matter of personal preference, and that doesn't make it "bad". I would hope most people are capable of understanding such a distinction.

I never stated that ED doesn't have bad elements, I have plenty of complaints including the low speed limit, but the difference is that I don't go spouting nonsense that it's not newtonian, just because its FBW has different rules in place.

Please address this at someone else, because it certainly has nothing to do with anything that I said.

It has everything to do with what you said.

 

[noodle]

That's a very valid point. We haven't had a chance to play around with things like the Frame Shift Drive or indeed hyperspace. At the moment we are making educated guesses as to how they will function in-game based on the information Frontier have given. I'm happy to wait and see how the whole game fits together. I really like the Flight model as it is so far but that's only my opinion. I can't wait to try out the Frame Shift Drive and see how it works.

Precisely. However, making educated guesses and discussing the possibilities, merits and demerits of different approaches is interesting (or pointless, depending on your perspective ).

It's imposed by the flight control system, you can easily do that with a real-life space ship, therefore your statement is nonsense.

If forward momentum is limited to an upper speed without a counterforce applying drag, then it is not Newtonian movement. I'm good with that and understand the reasons for it, but Newtonian movement it ain't.

I have no anger issues.

A thread in an internet forum about a game makes you angry. Whatever

Your posts are spreading the same nonsense.

You don't do civilised discussion, do you?

I never stated that ED doesn't have bad elements, I have plenty of complaints including the speed limit, but the difference is that I don't go spouting nonsense that it's not newtonian, just because its FBW has different rules in place.

Fly by wire is fine. No problem with that. But the movement of the ship has been intentionally (and probably justifiably) nerfed. The speed limit is an entirely artificial restriction which prevents movement from being truly Newtonian. You can apply magic interpretations and pretend that there's a magical drive that applies brakes when you're attempting to escape an opponent, but it's hardly "nonsense" to suggest that flight isn't fully Newtonian. Disagree by all means, but try and keep it civil, eh?

It has everything to do with what you said.

No it doesn't. Because I didn't like the combat flight model of FFE. It's generally a good idea to work out what someone's opinion actually is before you start attacking it

 

[Associat0r]

If forward momentum is limited to an upper speed without a counterforce applying drag, then it is not Newtonian movement. I'm good with that and understand the reasons for it, but Newtonian movement it ain't.

The counterforce is applied by the flight control computer controlling the thrusters, you can clearly see the thrusters oscillate to keep it within the limit.

You don't do civilised discussion, do you?

I am civilized, but this issue has been discussed countless of times and yet people keep spreading misinfo.

Fly by wire is fine. No problem with that. But the movement of the ship has been intentionally (and probably justifiably) nerfed. The speed limit is an entirely artificial restriction which prevents movement from being truly Newtonian. You can apply magic interpretations and pretend that there's a magical drive that applies brakes when you're attempting to escape an opponent, but it's hardly "nonsense" to suggest that flight isn't fully Newtonian. Disagree by all means, but try and keep it civil, eh?

I am civil and yet what you're saying is nonsense, see above, real space and aircraft have countless of limiters to keep stuff within flight parameters, the difference is that ED's limiters are just a violation of common sense wrt engineering an effecient flight control system for the sake of gameplay and networking, so just because something isn't skidding forever doesn't make it non-newtonian, please use proper terminology when discussing these things, since this misinformation is damaging to the perception of the game.

No it doesn't. Because I didn't like the combat flight model of FFE. It's generally a good idea to work out what someone's opinion actually is before you start attacking it

You classify FFE's model as newtonian while you don't call ED newtonian, so it has everything to with it.

 

[noodle]

The counterforce is applied by the flight control computer controlling the thrusters, you can clearly see the thrusters oscillate to keep it within the limit.

So would you care to explain the maximum speed limit with FA off? Or why "boost" can only last a few seconds before the ship slows down? All perfectly understandable gameplay decisions, but not Newtonian.

I am civilized, but this issue has been discussed countless of times and yet people keep spreading misinfo.

No. People disagree. Opinions that you disagree with are not disinformation - hence why I'm disagreeing with you, and not accusing you of spreading disinformation. That's how civilised conversation works

I am civil and yet what you're saying is nonsense

You really are having a hard time grasping the notion of civility, aren't you?

see above, real space and aircraft have countless of limiters to keep stuff within flight parameters as does ED's limiters are just a violation of common sense wrt engineering a flight control system for the sake of gameplay and networing

Exactly. They are artificially nerfing the ships to prevent them from moving according to Newtonian physics (which I'll state again is a decision I totally understand). But if the drive was slowing the ship, then I could switch it off the brakes and continue to gain forward momentum, which I can't. So you're suggesting that movement really is Newtonian, but for some magic reason my drive prevents me from escaping opponents by limiting my speed.

please use proper terminology when discussing these things, since this misinformation is damaging to the perception of the game.

Fiortunately, you don't get to tell me what to think, what to say, or what discussions I'm allowed to have

You're classify FFE's model as newtonian while you don't call ED newtonian so it has everything to with it.

You told me I put FFE on a pedestal. I said I don't. You switch the point to something different. Nice try

 

[FoxTwo]

No FoxTwo! Don't say that! Elite: Dangerous will be all about strong community. Any A-holes will be put down swiftly.
Diversity is the key to survival, as you very well know, so please join us, and make Elite: Dangerous a more beautiful place to be!

I'll guard your six any day commander!

(well, not every day. But often, if you need it)

Gee I think I need to make the following become my signature block or something...

The reason I'm playing SP-offline is because:

1. My "real universe" is on my harddisk, not online.
2. I never play any "serious missions" in MP mode
3. MP mode to me = chatting, socialising, running fun-but-not-affecting-my-game missions.
4. "Evolving Universe" is a nice idea but I'm not particularly attracted nor tempted by it. I can see it when I come online or when I run my launcher for patches weekly

and lastly
5. No my internet connection doesn't suck. I'm on fibre connection. "Legacy connections" are cable and ADSL. These are the "slow" ones.

And if I start out in SP-Offline mode and that profile is "unable to come online", no biggie. I'm planning to make an MP profile anyway. I like to separate my "serious" and my "do crazy things" savegames.

 

[Associat0r]

So would you care to explain the maximum speed limit with FA off? Or why "boost" can only last a few seconds before the ship slows down? All perfectly understandable gameplay decisions, but not Newtonian.

The retro thrusters should be firing to keep it within limits, therefore newtonian, it's easily implementable in a real spacecraft.

No. People disagree. Opinions that you disagree with are not disinformation - hence why I'm disagreeing with you, and not accusing you of spreading disinformation. That's how civilised conversation works

I don't deal with opinions, only with facts.

Exactly. They are artificially nerfing the ships to prevent them from moving according to Newtonian physics

This is such a nonsense statement, because no newtonian law is violated by having a flight control computer apply counteracting forces, plenty of space/air/land craft already do this.

(which I'll state again is a decision I totally understand). But if the drive was slowing the ship, then I could switch it off the brakes and continue to gain forward momentum, which I can't. So you're suggesting that movement really is Newtonian, but for some magic reason my drive prevents me from escaping opponents by limiting my speed.

Flight Assist off in ED is never fully off, just as it was never fully of in FFE (lack of angular momentum)

Fiortunately, you don't get to tell me what to think, what to say, or what discussions I'm allowed to have

Yet I already did.

You told me I put FFE on a pedestal. I said I don't. You switch the point to something different. Nice try

You do the moment you call FFE newtonian while not doing the same for ED, especially since a proper newtonian space ship should not be a simple point mass.

 

[Vhaegrant]

I played a lot of 'Elite' and 'Elite: Frontier'. I would say I had far more fun with Elite's ship v ship combat, while Frontier won hands down on exploration.

From what I can see the flight mechanics in Elite: Dangerous seem to strike a good compromise, a nod to some Newtonian physics (with flight assist off) and good old fashioned dogfighting (with flight assist on).

However this is all based on the alpha footage I'm seeing on You Tube, where the basic core ship is the same for all players.

I for one am hoping that there will be a number of customisation options for main engines and directional thrusters that would go to altering the flight mechanics of the vessel. Not to mention the varying characteristics of the different vessels themselves.

Time will tell.

But, the only reason I put my money down so early was the absence of a pure Newtonian flight model.

 

[Michael Brookes]

Do not let this degenerate into bickering and sniping at each other.

Michael

 

[Globusdiablo]

Yet I already did.

I really have no respect for people who get their jollies from trying to dominate others by putting them down. It's just so unintelligent. Primal but unintelligent. It's funny for a while, then gets extremely boring. It would be nice if you could use a more civil tone in your arguments. Raise the bar a bit. But I expect you won't.

 

[Associat0r]

I really have no respect for people who get their jollies from trying to dominate others by putting them down. It's just so unintelligent. Primal but unintelligent. It's funny for a while, then gets extremely boring. It would be nice if you could use a more civil tone in your arguments. Raise the bar a bit. But I expect you won't.

You should say the same to noodle, since he was the one that started the personal attacks.

 

[Michael Brookes]

You should say the same to noodle, since he was the one that started the personal attacks.

I really have no respect for people who get their jollies from trying to dominate others by putting them down. It's just so unintelligent. Primal but unintelligent. It's funny for a while, then gets extremely boring. It would be nice if you could use a more civil tone in your arguments. Raise the bar a bit. But I expect you won't.

Two wrongs do not make a right, now leave it unless you're discussing the issue. Last warning post to discuss issues, not other posters.

Michael

 

[Globusdiablo]

You should say the same to noodle, since he was the one that started the personal attacks.

Ok. I'll adress this to noodle as well. But you are the one coming out swinging in my book. Sorry..

 

[Globusdiablo]

Just agree to disagree gents.

 

[Associat0r]

Ok. I'll adress this to noodle as well. But you are the one coming out swinging in my book. Sorry..

I'm only stating facts, I don't attack character, please re-read all the posts carefully.

 

[Frantic]

Precisely. However, making educated guesses and discussing the possibilities, merits and demerits of different approaches is interesting (or pointless, depending on your perspective ).

Educated guesses based on over a decade of discussions amongst the community. Let me know when this forum is up to speed

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Guys, please chill. Mike Evans have repeated numerous times - ED is Newtonian, sans speed limit. You can take it or leave it, your decision.

Also I will just say that flying model is natural, it just feels right. I know some people love Newtonian to no end, but FD decision to do FA and allow it turn it off (not completely though) has been proven justified so far. It has given lot of balancing questions, but they are solvable.

Also please don't jump to conclusions before trying game out at beta or gamma.

 

[Dejay]

I still think a "space lasso" gadget that is cheap and omnipresent would have been a better compromise and would have achieved the same thing. You don't limit the top speed relative to a near gravitation well but simply slow a fleeing ship down relative to your movement. You gain speed, the other looses speed. That would have been newtonian and within acceptable bounds of science fiction (conservation of energy). The top speed towards you would be unlimited, but as soon as someone moves away from you his speed gets limited by the imperfect "space lasso" or "tractor beam". The gadgets that interrupt frame shift already do something similar.

Then you wouldn't need a separation between super cruise and normal flight, it's simply an additional acceleration with seamless transition to very high speeds.