Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Toxic_Waster]

The interaction (fighting the other player in Battlefield, tackling the falling pieces in Tetris) is desired. What is unwanted in your examples is the result.


From my point of view, not killing, but making it bearable and enjoyable. Apart from pure PvP games without PvE elements, it's been a few years since I last purchased any game where I couldn't completely remove even the slightest possibility of PvP, and I doubt I will ever spend another cent in any game where I can be forced into a PvP situation against my will.


Right now it's the opposite. There are but a handful of MMOs where the player has no choice but accept that non-consensual PvP can happen. Most MMOs, though, either have no PvP at all in the main world (The Secret World, Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, Trove, Star Trek Online, Marvel Heroes, etc) or have the option of PvE servers where PvP is restricted to specific battlegrounds and arenas (WoW, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Age of Conan, Wildstar, DC Universe Online, Rift, most WoW clones, etc).

It's funny how you' listed GW2 as the PVE example. I didn't play all of the listed games, but some. "The restricted PVP arenas (more like continents)" is where the majority of the game traffic is. Almost the same happens in ED just PVP zone boundaries are not strictly defined. 5 minutes of space travel and you're have very little possibility of PVP interaction.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The point is that the argument can be made for both sides of the coin, sir. As is, I am able to perform my playstyle. No, I dont want to stop playing that way.

Any play-style that is reliant on interacting with other players is vulnerable to those players not choosing to make themselves available as targets / opponents / etc. - there is no requirement on any player to provide content for others - if they do it is by their choice (and their choice alone).

 

[Leto Thule]

Any play-style that is reliant on interacting with other players is vulnerable to those players not choosing to make themselves available as targets / opponents / etc. - there is no requirement on any player to provide content for others - if they do it is by their choice (and their choice alone).

But they HAVE the choice already.

I think the answer to the problem isnt a PVE mode. Maybe a group search tool. Maybe an explanation of the RISKS of flying alone, in open play. Id also like to see more penalties for being a criminal, as well.

 

[DarkWalker]

The point is that the argument can be made for both sides of the coin, sir. As is, I am able to perform my playstyle. No, I dont want to stop playing that way.

Edit: And you dont know how much they would lose. I dont just blow things up. I steal 50%, and am willing to negotiate lower if the pilot is willing to talk it over.

The financial loss is meaningless. If the player wants to enjoy the social aspect of the game without players like you ruining the experience, he should be allowed that.

The end result of an Open PvE mode would merely be as if every player knew about Mobius (and Mobius himself had infinite time to manage the group). If you have an issue with an Open PvE mode existing, you have an issue with players learning about the Mobius group and being aware that they can choose to remove from their game the unwanted PvP that for many serves only to make the game worse.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Because it would make me feel like a jerk. I never attack other players without first being sure they want to fight.

You feel like jerk, some feel like sword of justice, some feel like the drivers of the natural selection, some feel Jack Sparrow. Why project your own feelings on other people playstyle? Let them be who they want. Jack the Ripper will do just fine.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But they HAVE the choice already.

I think the answer to the problem isnt a PVE mode. Maybe a group search tool. Maybe an explanation of the RISKS of flying alone, in open play. Id also like to see more penalties for being a criminal, as well.

Indeed they do - although the choice involves reducing the number of players that can be encountered.

You may be right - a group search tool that listed group size, play style (with associated Private Group possible rule variations as suggested in the Kickstarter) and number of players online would be a start. Real penalties for criminal activity (docking restrictions, wide area bounties, active police search, etc.) would probably also help.

The "problem" with Private Groups is that the group management tools are primitive to say the least.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Edit: And you dont know how much they would lose. I dont just blow things up. I steal 50%, and am willing to negotiate lower if the pilot is willing to talk it over.

They do know how much they have lost - that's easily calculated.

How do you deal with players who don't communicate or drop cargo?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
You may be right - a group search tool that listed group size, play style (with associated Private Group possible rule variations as suggested in the Kickstarter) and number of players online would be a start. Real penalties for criminal activity (docking restrictions, wide area bounties, active police search, etc.) would probably also help.
…

And the effect would be the same as an Open PvE mode - those who don't want forced PvP would leave Open Mode. At least I see no difference.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

To all opposers of Open PVP why don't you fit something nimble A-fitted of course, undock and let yourself loose in the hunt for the clueless traders out there? They wouldn't know what hit them and you may discover the whole new world for yourself.

Given how disturbing I find the thought, I cannot see how I could possibly derive any enjoyment out of it.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Given how disturbing I find the thought, I cannot see how I could possibly derive any enjoyment out of it.

Why do you find this disturbing? Care to elaborate?

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Yes?

And your desire to implement an open PVE is centered on a desire not to BE that prey, correct?

Not even slightly correct. Everyone already has the ability to avoid pvp. Open PvP is desired because it's the ultimate and final solution to the Mobius workaround. Mobius' numbers prove the desire is sufficient, yet poor mobius has to deal with thousands of members with barely non-existent admin tools. Plus, the only people who know about Mobius are those who visit the forums. It would just be a better system all around if there was an open PvE mode.

 

[DarkWalker]

It's funny how you' listed GW2 is the PVE example. I didn't play all of the listed games, but some. "The restricted PVP arenas (more like continents)" is where the majority of the game traffic is.

Huh, what? People are constantly complaining in GW2 that most maps in WvW (the kind of GW2 PvP you described) are empty. I haven't seen a queue for the PvP maps in, like, over a year (I jump into them just to fast travel for free, as my PvP of choice in GW2 is the Arena-like SP). Heck, I completed all challenges and interest points in those maps without ever having to fight another player.

Also, an interesting thing about GW2 WvW: it's consequences free. You just respawn, all your inventory, gear, and gold intact. The game used to have gear damage (AKA repair costs), but the devs removed it as the costs were driving more players out of PvP than was acceptable. So, it's basically just a big and lengthy CQC, meant to hold a few hundred people at a time and with matches lasting a week, with little to no influence in what happens outside.

Almost the same happens in ED just PVP zone boundaries are not strictly defined. 5 minutes of space travel and you're have very little possibility of PVP interaction.

Why should I do that (and give up on playing in some of the most famous and iconic systems in the game) when I can simply change to a group or solo and enjoy the whole game without PvP getting in the way?

I didn't get ED for the PvP. Rather, I got it because I could completely avoid any and all PvP without losing access to any of the game universe or any piece of PvE gameplay.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

So, you would kill my chosen profession to provide yet ONE MORE way for people to avoid me? Did your game cost more? Of course nobody is going to be willingly stopped and have their things stolen! Im a pirate! I dont want fights, I want cargo!

Who exactly do you think is going to play in PVP open mode after a PVE option goes live? I think the people asking for this are under the impression "pvp guys just want to slug it out all the time". I bought this game to hunt targets, drag them out of supercruise, and either take my earnings or blast them into oblivion, not find a "fair fight". Pirate, not fighter pilot!

As Toxic-Waster pointed out, open is not dying. You'd still have the same targets you have now. All that would change would be that those who currently play in solo/groups would have a better option. I myself haven't played in Mobius since Maj invaded it to gank. Just made me all too aware that Mobius is an ad hoc solution to a game mode that Frontier should provide.

 

[Jockey79]

To all opposers of Open PVP why don't you fit something nimble A-fitted of course, undock and let yourself loose in the hunt for the clueless traders out there? They wouldn't know what hit them and you may discover the whole new world for yourself.

I don't play this game for PvP or newbie hunting.

I have;

Planetside 2
World of Tanks / Warplanes / Battleships (yes I play all 3)
Mechwarrior Online
Assassins Creed Black Flag
Star Trek Online

For my PvP needs.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Why do you find this disturbing? Care to elaborate?

I would be consumed by guilt and shame if I purposefully tried to ruin anyone's day in any venue. It's that simple. I don't see why that's been historically so difficult for so many to understand.

 

[DarkWalker]

You feel like jerk, some feel like sword of justice, some feel like the drivers of the natural selection, some feel Jack Sparrow. Why project your own feelings on other people playstyle? Let them be who they want. Jack the Ripper will do just fine.

You asked why I don't go hunting for defenseless traders. I answered that. I won't lower myself to the level of those that do that, it's not an enjoyable experience for me.

I love PvP. But only agreed upon PvP with targets that can fight back. I don't see where the fun is in attacking someone that can't effectively defend himself; Bragging rights? Forcing the other to acknowledge you? What is even the point?

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Huh, what? People are constantly complaining in GW2 that most maps in WvW (the kind of GW2 PvP you described) are empty. I haven't seen a queue for the PvP maps in, like, over a year (I jump into them just to fast travel for free, as my PvP of choice in GW2 is the Arena-like SP). Heck, I completed all challenges and interest points in those maps without ever having to fight another player.

Also, an interesting thing about GW2 WvW: it's consequences free. You just respawn, all your inventory, gear, and gold intact. The game used to have gear damage (AKA repair costs), but the devs removed it as the costs were driving more players out of PvP than was acceptable. So, it's basically just a big and lengthy CQC, meant to hold a few hundred people at a time and with matches lasting a week, with little to no influence in what happens outside.


Why should I do that (and give up on playing in some of the most famous and iconic systems in the game) when I can simply change to a group or solo and enjoy the whole game without PvP getting in the way?

I didn't get ED for the PvP. Rather, I got it because I could completely avoid any and all PvP without losing access to any of the game universe or any piece of PvE gameplay.

I'm not going to engage into GW2 discussion here. All I can say their PVP is their main selling point, PVE in GW2 is secondary and very mediocre in the provided content. When the game was hot I had to wait more than 30 minutes in the queue.

You shouldn't give up anything. By all means enjoy your Solo/Group mode. Just leave Open alone. Let us follow our own story.

 

[Roybe]

Look like you're trying to sell your personal perception of how the game should be as the game itself. Arranged fights happen yet in another extra mode CQC. I never tried it nor intend to. ED is the best player's hunting game out there. If somebody else knows the better one please let me know

Here's what we can do. I will tell you on a given day, that I am waiting in Open...in local space, around any space station you desire....streaming on the internet...and if you can find me you can have some internet cookies! You CAN TRY to hunt people...you have no GUARANTEE that if you are in the same system, at the same time, in the same mode, at the same place, that you will find them! Whether through distance, instancing, or outright manipulation of personal equipment....you will be hard put to see a person.

The game is hihgly prohibitive against PVP....by design. The only way the devs have set up the game to guarantee a reward for doing anything, is through the interaction of groups of people collecting PVE trophies.

There is a large group of people playing under an amazingly well perpetrated illusion, created by the devs, that this is not the case....but if you honestly, and without prejudice, look at the base designs...this is the only way the game is playable across the modes. The only equal way that any player gets rewarded is to play the PVE collection game. Any other part of the game is a cost to all players that participate.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

I would be consumed by guilt and shame if I purposefully tried to ruin anyone's day in any venue. It's that simple. I don't see why that's been historically so difficult for so many to understand.

What if you ruin the day of another "day ruiner"? Will it make you feel better?

 

[Jockey79]

What if you ruin the day of another "day ruiner"? Will it make you feel better?

LOL.

So advocating Bounty Hunting then

Still need better tools / mechanics for PvP BH'ing though