Horizons Fairness of horizons vs ED

[cadestirling]

so, i have been an Elite Dangerous player for a while and have enjoyed my time....then i heard about horizons and what it intended and made a prediction. that prediction was that players without the expansion would be banned from atmospheric flight...now that it has been released, my prediction came true... the other part of my prediction is that it would ruin PVP....this has come true as well. now before you start whining and complaining, i will admit im NOT rich and have NO money to upgrade the game...but while the pricing is odd at a glance i can KINDA understand it. i will get to that later.

broken pvp - player harasses my anaconda and starts to flee soon as he starts to lose...he FSDs out and im able to follow with my ships gear. he flies into a planets atmosphere and im stopped...my ship has the planetary approach suite...but...cant fly... [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] is this? a bug? no, its devs :|
the dink hounding me was able to escape because he could buy horizons while i cannot. he can hide down there and fly/drive around until i get bored. NOTHING i can do...WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS!!

so i would very much like the or a developers answer on this....WHY can he fly in the atmosphere and i cannot? why is this person able to just hide down there while i am stuck or the other way around...how is this fair to anyone ?

why cant the horizons players get planet based missions and driving and basic players get just atmospheric flight to negate this pvp breaking [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] you got going on here? and this price? what is this Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn? and if it is essentially an FFXIV:ARR then why the heck connect it to the base game grid...all you are introducing is unfairness and a chance for players to exploit what other players cannot do.

please forgive me for ranging but this is frustrating the hell out of me. i cant even bring myself to log into open play because of this. personally i find it game breaking, and ruins my fun entirely. down vote me all you want, flame me. i could care less. i honestly feel that the expansion vs standard makes the game unfair for the standard players. the developers are trying to FORCE you to upgrade or quit and i honestly find it offensive and 100% a ripoff. i spent $60+ on this game only to have to spend roughly near the same amount AGAIN just for a few added features and according to rumors a crap ton more features later.

if you plan to make a second improved version of Elite Dangerous DONT CONNECT IT TO THE BASIC SERVER!!!! you ruin the fun for everyone :\

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

Very poorly constructed argument. C-

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Everybody is banned from atmospheric flight.

 

[Kirth]

Atmospheric flight?

 

[Lestenio]

Exactly where are you saying the planetary cut off should be for 1.5 players?
Sounds like you are saying you want to be able to land on planets for free.

 

[Alpha087]

To be fair, there's barely any incentive to actually land on planets unless you're lucky enough to actually find a decent surface mission. I don't even care that they wanted $60 for a year's worth of updates. That's actually quite fair to me. What did bother me was the "Recommended" System Requirements for running Horizons at 60 FPS in 1080p pretty much being an outright lie. Needing a new $300+ GPU to get any sort of reasonable, but STILL not perfect framerate on planets is kind of ridiculous.

Hope they optimize it a bit more, but I have my doubts. What worries me more is when/if we get planets that actually have something on them. Am I going to be expected to drop $3000-$5000 on a new machine when that happens?

 

[Red Kite]

I'm not going to flame you, just calmly point out that you are not making a reasonable argument. If 1.5 and Horizons players were connected to different versions of the game universe these would be entirely separate and soon get out of sync. The background stories would be unmanageable.

The whole idea of an expansion is that some people have it and some don't. There is no way for you to have planetary (not atmospheric yet) flight without the rest of the Horizons package so you are just left with the prospect of saving up until you can afford it and you may also find you need to upgrade your hardware to run 2.0 I'm afraid.

Is it fair? You can argue that it isn't, but there is no reasonable way to do it otherwise. The presence of Horizons elements all around is a subtle pressure to buy the upgrade, but I feel FD have put effort into keeping 1.5 viable for those who can't afford to move on at the moment. However, the change is inevitably going to come and I doubt if there will be many people playing 1.5 a year from now.

 

[Chris Simon]

Red Kite pretty much summed it up.
I'd just like to add that you didn't have to "predict" anything if you just read the roadmap from Kickstarter. There were these yearly seasons planned and announced all the way back in 2013

 

[Googol]

... player harasses my anaconda and starts to flee soon as he starts to lose...he FSDs out and im able to follow with my ships gear. he flies into a planets atmosphere and im stopped...my ship has the planetary approach suite...but...cant fly...
so i would very much like the or a developers answer on this....WHY can he fly in the atmosphere and i cannot? why is this person able to just hide down there while i am stuck or the other way around ...

-
I'm not sure how your opponent knew you couldn't follow them, perhaps they just took a chance and it paid off. That said, this is clearly an exploit and, like combat logging, needs to be addressed by the devs in some way - perhaps allowing hot pursuit into the orbital cruise level would address this.
-

... i honestly feel that the expansion vs standard makes the game unfair for the standard players. the developers are trying to FORCE you to upgrade or quit and i honestly find it offensive and 100% a ripoff. i spent $60+ on this game only to have to spend roughly near the same amount AGAIN just for a few added features and according to rumors a crap ton more features later...

-
You have a right to be frustrated if a cowardly commander took advantage of a Horizons feature, but you must remember that ED was always marketed as a multi-season game (when did TV programming terminology enter the gaming vocabulary?) and that some imbalance is inevitable if players don't want, or can't afford to buy, new content. My advice, accept the moral victory that comes from forcing the attacker to exploit their way out of an ill-judged raid and fly on serene in the knowledge that there is one person who won't make the same mistake again!

 

[Ydiss]

How often has this happened to you?

How does the fleeing player know you don't have 2.0?

 

[cadestirling]

what im saying is, dont let 1.5 players land or use srv or do plant missions, but let us fly sub-orbital.
this has happened to me once so far chasing a player with a bounty. he fled down to sub-orbital flight and i couldnt follow. the point is that most people will probably do that to evade in hope that the player might not have 1.5 or the other way around. but the fact is that it CAN happen and is unfair to 1.5 players who invest in pvp piracy or bounty hunting or even revenge.

the fact of the matter is that a 2.0 player can evade a 1.5 player if they make it sub orbital and there is NOTHING a 1.5 player can do about it. from a pvp viewpoint its unfair... sadly a 2.0, the ones who cant see both view points will most likely defend that there is nothing wrong with this. and yes i have encountered that argument from a couple friends and find it frustrating.

as i said im a 1.5 player. i dont invest in pvp but i have run into a couple pirates who were actually nice guys over all just playing their character. 1 of them even asked if i had horizons while i was shooting at him. i told him no and he backed down. i know that not everyone is that nice but there WILL be players who will use a planet to hide and succeed.

in the end my point is that from a PVP standpoint not being able to fly sub-orbital is unfair.

as i said, give 2.0 players all their fancy stuff but let 1.5 players at the very least be able to FLY sub-orbital. i mean hell the devs gave everyone the planetary approach suite anyway. logged on after release to find my asp suddenly had it even though it cant use it...which honestly i find dumb as well.

i know the chance of chasing someone to a planet is probably rare as hell, but it is still possible.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

bah! i suck at explaining stuff >.<

 

[Demascus]

It was to my understanding that the players with horizon vs. people without would be on a separate servers. People with the "expansion" (if you can call it that) would have the ability to choose between servers.

 

[babelfisch]

broken pvp - player harasses my anaconda and starts to flee soon as he starts to lose...he FSDs out and im able to follow with my ships gear. he flies into a planets atmosphere and im stopped...my ship has the planetary approach suite...but...cant fly... [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] is this? a bug? no, its devs :|
the dink hounding me was able to escape because he could buy horizons while i cannot. he can hide down there and fly/drive around until i get bored. NOTHING i can do...WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS!!

Situation without Horizons:

Player harasses your anaconda, FSDs out, goes to main menu and enters solo.

/thread

 

[Gody]

OP I didnt even bother to read whole your post, because its just so stupid it hurt my eyes, but Ill tell you one thing. You're crying cuz you can't kill someone cuz he got away (thx to Horizons). But what if he didn't own Horizons and he'd just combat logged and switch to solo? (Nobody should do that, but it's still possible) What would you do then? Crying on forums that it's not fair, he can switch modes?
p.s. In your world, you probably think that you're the best in the world and you should get everything for free, but in real world, you need to pay for stuff. Real world isn't fair, but you'll learn that when you grow up

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Very poorly constructed argument. C-

I didn't spot an argument. What I saw was kicking the can further down the road. SO, OK, FD lets people without Horizons do atmospheric flight. His target flees to a planet. He follows. His target sees that he is followed, so drops to the surface. At this point the game now stops the OP from following. If is clearly unfair. FD should let people who did not buy Horizons land on planets, too, otherwise their targets can escape, and that is not fair.

... but, wait, my target has now jumped into his buggy. But I did not buy Horizons and so do not have a buggy. Clearly I am being treated unfairly. Obviously the only fair thing to do is to let those that have not bought Horizons have full access to Horizons, otherwise it is not fair.

Did I get the gist of it?

Really, there are lots of things you can criticise FD for. I do it regularly. But this is laughable as a complaint when today, with or without Horizons, your target can escape through several techniques, from emergency drop out of SC followed by a logout or change to solo to logoffski to many others. Live with it.

 

[Red Kite]

How does the fleeing player know you don't have 2.0?

Good point. As far as I know there is no way to tell if a player has access to Horizons. The only exception is a player in a Cobra Mk IV, which is not available to 1.5 users.

The OP says he wants "suborbital flight" but how is that defined? OC but not allowed to drop out into Glide? Allowed to drop, but not land? You just can't break the planetary approach package down in any sensible way.

Edit: my point ninja'd by AnnuverScotinExile

 

[Chip Patton]

so, i have been an Elite Dangerous player for a while and have enjoyed my time....then i heard about horizons and what it intended and made a prediction. that prediction was that players without the expansion would be banned from atmospheric flight...now that it has been released, my prediction came true... the other part of my prediction is that it would ruin PVP....this has come true as well. now before you start whining and complaining, i will admit im NOT rich and have NO money to upgrade the game...but while the pricing is at a glance i can KINDA understand it. i will get to that later.

broken pvp - player harasses my anaconda and starts to flee soon as he starts to lose...he FSDs out and im able to follow with my ships gear. he flies into a planets atmosphere and im stopped...my ship has the planetary approach suite...but...cant fly... [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] is this? a bug? no, its devs :|
the dink hounding me was able to escape because he could buy horizons while i cannot. he can hide down there and fly/drive around until i get bored. NOTHING i can do...WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS!!

so i would very much like the or a developers answer on this....WHY can he fly in the atmosphere and i cannot? why is this person able to just hide down there while i am stuck or the other way around...how is this fair to anyone ?

why cant the horizons players get planet based missions and driving and basic players get just atmospheric flight to negate this pvp breaking [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] you got going on here? and this price? what is this Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn? and if it is essentially an FFXIV:ARR then why the heck connect it to the base game grid...all you are introducing is unfairness and a chance for players to exploit what other players cannot do.

please forgive me for ranging but this is frustrating the hell out of me. i cant even bring myself to log into open play because of this. personally i find it game breaking, and ruins my fun entirely. down vote me all you want, flame me. i could care less. i honestly feel that the expansion vs standard makes the game unfair for the standard players. the developers are trying to FORCE you to upgrade or quit and i honestly find it offensive and 100% a ripoff. i spent $60+ on this game only to have to spend roughly near the same amount AGAIN just for a few added features and according to rumors a crap ton more features later.

if you plan to make a second improved version of Elite Dangerous DONT CONNECT IT TO THE [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] BASIC SERVER!!!! you ruin the fun for everyone :\

Instead of bashing, let me help.

You should have said planetary non-atmospheric flight. Make no mistake, atmospheric flight will be behind yet another paywall. I don't mind paying for content -- but we're not getting content, and that's my problem with the expansions. I paid AAA flagship title pricing for a sandbox expansion with no sand. To say I'm not happy is an understatement. However, I do believe 100% that developers should charge for new content and lock that content for those that support it. This has more benefits than you think. If I decided I don't want Horizons because I think it is going in the wrong direction, I don't have to buy it and I don't have to have it forced upon me, and I get to vote with my wallet -- I support this idea whole heartedly.

But does this affect PVP on its face? No.

The part that affects PVP is giving players access to ships that not all players have access to. That's where you should have started and ended your argument of fairness. The act of allowing people to have ships by paying a fee (even if given as a gift to those that pay for something else) is a slippery slope to pay to win. In fact, its generally what most game companies start out with by incrementally shoving it down your throat -- a free gift here for buying x content, free gift there for buying a fluff item, and then "wham" here is full pay to win right in your face -- and when people complain, "well we've been doing it the whole time and you didn't complain!" is what the fanbois mindlessly done an about.

Well, I'm complaining now, just for the record. I've seen this retardation go on in too many games.

 

[babelfisch]

Instead of bashing, let me help.

You should have said planetary non-atmospheric flight. Make no mistake, atmospheric flight will be behind yet another paywall.

But does this affect PVP on its face? No.

The part that affects PVP is giving players access to ships that not all players have access to. That's where you should have started and ended your argument of fairness.

So far Horizons and ED owners can get the same ships except the Cobra MKIV which isn't better than any other ship in it's price segment.

 

[Chip Patton]

So far Horizons and ED owners can get the same ships except the Cobra MKIV which isn't better than any other ship in it's price segment.

Read my edit, I better explained to how this is a very, very, slippery slope down pay-to-win lane.

 

[nexxo]

In-lore explanation:

"So I was making this trip to Araminta Station, delivering some computer components, and I get interdicted by this overambitious pirate. Well, I was ready for him! Turned around, set shields to full and I hammered him with my mass driver cannons. He obviously did not expect that because he starts to flail like a wounded seagull, tries to jump out. But my warrant scanner says there's a hefty bounty on him and by now I have racked up expenses in fuel and ammo, and anyway who does that scum think he is? He messed with the wrong trader, so I'm after him.

He heads for this nearby moon, but his thrusters must have been damaged because I'm closing in fast. I can almost smell his fear --and then I hit the ' wall don't I? Turns out he has the planetary landing kit on his ship, and I don't. Why should I? I'm a station-to-station trader, can't be asked with all that planetfall malarkey; takes too much time, too many forms to fill, permissions to ask, and the planetary landing suite is not cheap, I tell you, and takes up valuable cargo space. So no, I don't have that kit on my ship. He dives for cover on the surface, and I can't follow because my thrusters are not upgraded for flying within gravity wells... Ah well. Can't win them all. But I think he's learned his lesson. You don't mess with me."