Absolutely - but let me make that choice - want to be a trader, fine have a permanent connection, want to be a rogue, fine buy / build / steal technology to keep you off the grid. Don't enforce your idea of gameplay on me simply because you consider it cheating / stupid / unfair / boring / etc.
Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments
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Absolutely - but let me make that choice - want to be a trader, fine have a permanent connection, want to be a rogue, fine buy / build / steal technology to keep you off the grid. Don't enforce your idea of gameplay on me simply because you consider it cheating / stupid / unfair / boring / etc.
Well, as already mentioned, lore-wise there are "other powers at work in the universe enforcing their ideas upon you" already, and there simply is no trade network to log into. Wether this was decided by the pilot's federation in order to keep the ship manufacturing multis from replacing live pilots with an army of drones run by vast datacubes, we do not know ;P
Game development wise, it's nearly impossible to develop something in any reasonable time that can offer all that flexibility, while still being balanced and manageable at the same time (some are trying, but the end-result might end up rather disappointing).
Aaaaand as already stated, I see a big oportunity there for the developer in sanctioning 3rd party add-ons to diversify the gaming experience and catering to as large of an audience as possible* (we might not have dragons in the game anytime soon, though .. but who knows), while being in control of major data flows and in contact with the community's most active members. Win-Win.
*) little side remark - despite the sometimes heated discussion, even the "vintage" in-game-only-ressource users (should) have the added satisfaction of playing the game "the hard way" by not being "force fed" all that information in-game. It does make them more "Elite" in a meta-game sense -shrug-.
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You miss the point, the people who HAVE the data you want are the ones who don't want you to have access to it. This isn't news, this has been reality in the business of producing, selling and moving goods forever. IF you work for the company, yes, you can probably get access to the data, but if you don't, you aren't getting it.
WE are all members of the Pilots Federation, we don't work for the corporations and governments, so when we buy and sell goods, we're doing it as contractors, NOT as employees of the producers of the goods. GalNet is the product of the Pilots Federation, and it's a news network more than anything else, with some limited information on where goods are exported/imported to/from at any given station, that's it. GalNet doesn't have access to the actual trade data the companies have, they only have access to the information the members of the Pilots Federation give them, that's it. So yeah, we don't get to see what's trading for what anywhere at anytime, GalNet doesn't have that information.
The Pilots Federation aren't the major movers of goods in the galaxy in the Elite universe, you folks seem to forget that or simply be unaware of it.
That's why I'm not fond of the trade apps, they break the immersion and break the lore, totally against the setting we're in.
Now, something that keeps a log of where you've been, your travel log, that isn't breaking the lore or immersion, our ship's navigation computer should have a record of all that data, but it doesn't, at least not in any way we can easily access it. Sure, I can open the galaxy map and start clicking on stars to see if I've got their data, but that's very long, very slow and not accurate, as there are many systems whos data I have that I've never been to. 3rd party tools are a way to, hopefully, get easy access to that data, which is a sad thing, FD should have included easy access ingame.
I support the 3rd party tool makers, I know many people rely on them for anything and everything, my thoughts on that are what they are, not generally good thoughts, but I still support the people who make the tools because sometimes they take up the slack for the devs on stuff that wasn't considered important or even considered at all by the devs. Not very often, but occasionally, and that's good enough for me to support them.
Couldn't disagree more. Having the option to do whatever you want, in the broadest sense, would completely ruin any game, game enjoyment, and sense of worth and achievement. The only exception to this that I can think of might be a single-player-sandbox-only game, but Elite isn't a sandbox game nor a single-player game even in solo mode in the strictest sense.
Thankfully, no one worth their salt is even remotely seriously considering this. It also isn't what any sane gamer or modder would want either.
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Major crux of this issue is this - devs and part of players thinks risk reward system is what makes ED what it is and makes it fun. Usually those are more casual playstyle fans, because their goals isn't some self implied efficency (or simpler enough they ain't min/maxers). And then there's another part who sees game just a ship simulator and measures play time in their own productivity in crunching numbers. Decrease that effectiveness and you will get complains about grind. For them discovering new routes themselves is annoying roadblock to their victory of being effective, not interesting gameplay.
There's reason why EvE is strategy game with RPG dressed up like space sim. It gives very measurable variables for players to pit against. There's little of that in ED, leaving ships as measurement. Anything that stands in a way of progress is annoying. Process itself are means to the end.
In nutshell it is this - this ain't game with clear specified goals for players. It was designed to give thrills due of process, not because you hit some artificial threshold faster. Therefore trying to force way which conflicts with this particular design not gonna work.
Also can we stop pretend that majority of people cares about other API usages. You want to have knowledge before doing haul. We know it. You know it. However we all know that it is against game's core design.
There's reason why EvE is strategy game with RPG dressed up like space sim. It gives very measurable variables for players to pit against. There's little of that in ED, leaving ships as measurement. Anything that stands in a way of progress is annoying. Process itself are means to the end.
In nutshell it is this - this ain't game with clear specified goals for players. It was designed to give thrills due of process, not because you hit some artificial threshold faster. Therefore trying to force way which conflicts with this particular design not gonna work.
Also can we stop pretend that majority of people cares about other API usages. You want to have knowledge before doing haul. We know it. You know it. However we all know that it is against game's core design.
It is possible to be more subtle.
I don't think that's so much the case though, unless perhaps in terms of there being a wider audience now. I think it's more that developers, but especially publishers, have in general focused more on the graphics arms race and appealing to the masses than putting in the work to develop compelling and engaging content, while still trying to rein in and appeal to the "hardcore" gamer.
There have always been stupid people in this world. Nothing new there.
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I think major issue of this is that computer games have become this power fantasy thing for many people. For many people, power is efficiency. Them being able to crunch numbers faster and getting ship they want is their goal. All trading and outfitting apps are basically designed around this idea. And I don't condone that idea, it is just ED wasn't designed around it. It was designed for people to find these outfitting spots, to find these lucrative deals. Heck, CGs has been designed around you caring enough to go to the other side of the galaxy to get some boost in income.
Elite for these players is relict of bygone era of games as pure escapism. Where they are basically looking for next hit for their imagined effectiveness. They create their own gameplay so tense and grindy that they complain that game itself is so. With such mind nothing will cut it. No cutscenes or scenery will be good enough.
I cannot follow this reasoning.
Profitable Training *is* the Core Design.
Community interaction is the core design.
Have you guys forgotten what this thread is about? App developers are seeking answers. The gameplay and imagination posts are all OT.
Reason why they seek answers they mostly know already anyway are what my posts for example talk about. This subject is done to heat death of universe. Everyone knows where FD stance is. Questions about APIs in general are also answered multiple times.
We have Devs in this thread who explicitly disagree with you. They have stated their thoughts on these 3rd party apps, and indicated their appreciation.
So the long and short of it is, that they have written a letter to the Devs seeking assistance, and you've argued against the validity of these apps within the design of the game. You began by stating that there was no FTL communication in Elite lore. I gave you several examples that disproved your assumption. A sanctioned Elite author commented that you're wrong also.
Now you're trying to say that these apps are against the design of the game, even though those who design the game have expressed their appreciation of these apps in this thread already. So basically, once again, your assumptions are wrong.
Any discussion about the validity of these apps is off topic. This thread is supposed to be a dialogue between the 3rd party devs and FD. If you are neither, then you're not really going to be able to contribute.
FDev are concentrated on creating new content. Not the core game. The core game is only getting a few balance tweaks here and there.
And if they are not even serious about patching or upgrading the game (like mission overhaul, different interaction with ships, major power play redesign) how are you even expectant about an API is beyond me.
Ah, the old 'you don't count, so shut up' attitude, nice to see it's not dead.....
The devs haven't commented on this, Zac let us know that he'll get it TO them after the holidays, welcome to the discussion, take a minute to READ what's actually been posted why don't you.
To date, FD's stance on this subject is...well..actually, not positive, since Michael personally closed threads on the subject and has specifically stated that certain 3rd party tools aren't allowed to be mentioned on FD's forums, at all. Guess you missed that stuff? There's links to it in this very thread if you did miss that. Hells, FD's own Apple app is a joke, it doesn't actually give any information that anyone wants for the 3rd party tools, and that's a fact. They've repeatedly stated they find the 3rd party tool community interesting and they love to see that people are interested in the game enough to ask for such tools and to develop them and...that's it, they haven't helped that community one bit, they've actually hindered it actively.
I support the call for the API, it has many functions and uses that I approve of, more that I don't approve of, but so be it, people will always find a way to do things that circumvent the built in limitations and functions of a game, Humans are what they are and they'll do what they do. I still support the 3rd party tool makers and their requests for better communication with FD and help from FD.
You don't actually get to tell us whether we can comment on this subject or not bud, keep that in mind.
My point here, that you seem not understand, is to underline the universe incoherence of this game based on its hypothetic lore and time.
Btw, You are ok without trading computer but it doesn t bother you to use the route planner
.People are really full of paradox...
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Not really. They never explictly stated what kind of apps they meant and Zac is well meaning community lead. He won't openly say they are against one or another app. They will just never endorce it. Please stop twisting what has been said.
Sorry to be blunt, but there are no *regular* FTL communications in ED lore. It has been quite clear for what I wrote that there IS FTL communications, they are not frequently used, they are expensive and very exclusive (this is what Michael Brookes has been saying about it, I can dig it up if you want). Also I pointed out that whatever reasons behind lore is, gameplay wise it is quite clear why I think prices most likely will be never shared trough API.
Not really. They never endorsed price sharing and have spoken against it in the past. Zac talked about third party apps in general. FD have never spoken against or for such apps, however they have worked against lot of ways to scrape that information out of memory of the game, it is forbidden now. Please inform yourself before see such posts as official endorsement of price sharing.
Wrong again. All threads are open to everyone, and your intent doesn't regulate what can be posted on thread, as long it is ontopic. My posts are ontopic and frankly, it has been waste of time, because it is some 200th thread about this subject matter. FD will never share prices over API and that's it. If you can't see it why, then there's no point to argue about it.
agree with this completely, but the market is just one area where properly developed API's could really help with ED.
That said, if external 3rd party tools are such a big part of ED, and I'm not saying they are or they are not, I've used one or two and certainly at the start they were helpful to find things and to at least have some guidance to avoid ending up in a dead end, but, if they are useful, then switch them all off.
Show FD that the response in this thread, which I think is more than you could have hoped for given how poor FD seem to be right now, is nothing but a pointless acknowledgement. Turn off each and every 3rd party tool web site and lets see every Commander post here that they want them back on, show FD the numbers for real, let them see players walk away. Go on strike for a few weeks, bring the
storm You can't negotiate with someone who does not think they need anything you have.IMO FD are going to have to change this year, the way they appear to be going about things recently is simply not going to work out well enough to sustain ED and I fully expect that change will come.
in RL (in other words in logic space) you would have pilots flying around and selling trade data on thumb drives (in the year 3300 i expect all trade data of the galaxy to fit on dust mote drives though)
My point here, that you seem not understand, is to underline the universe incoherence of this game based on its hypothetic lore and time.
Btw, You are ok without trading computer but it doesn t bother you to use the route planner
People are really full of paradox...
Big difference between a trading computer and a route planner though, potentially. A trading computer that had access to ALL market data at once effectively plays the game for you as a big part of the trading gameplay is FINDING the profitable routes in the first place, for yourself! A trading computer that simply stores data for markets you, and only you, have previously visited (or bought the trade data for) would be a different matter. An extension of that to allow sharing of data between a group of players would be a logical part of any enhanced group gameplay yet to come. Not to mention such data would only be a snapshot in time, not reflective of realtime price fluctuations. But access to all of the market data across the inhabited portion of the galaxy and in realtime, showing what the prices are at any given point in time? THAT would be playing the game for you, or at least a big part of it. Yes you woud still have to fly the cargo runs, avoid interdictions and such, but there would be no challenge at all in actually finding those routes to begin with. So the key point is in the implementation, where trade data is concerned. It's not a case of simply saying one needs the tool - one has to be very clear on exactly what the scope of that tool's functionality would be because it could so easily be taken too far.
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Meanwhile, a route planner merely would enable you to plot a route on the galaxy map - but it wouldn't fly the route for you. You would still have to make the jumps, scoop the fuel, scan the systems and planets. A route planner, such as being able to set waypoints to mark out a route based on star plots that we all already have access to via the galaxy map, or storage of previous systems visited, doesn't actually play the game for you. And in the absence of magical instant travel, I'm not sure a route planning or documentation tool could ever be taken so far as playing the game for you like a trade tool could if poorly implemented.
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It's worth remembering one can already buy both system and trade data for systems via the galaxy map, thus building up your own individually tailored trade tool, of sorts. Sure, it lacks the actual prices so you don't know exactly how much you'll make or lose, and it's sometimes screwy and could be a lot better, but that's a bit like real markets in a way. You might know what the price might be when you depart, but by the time you arrive things could be quite different. There perhaps should be a level of uncertainty about market performance until you've visited the route yourself. I don't mind a level of uncertainty about routes I haven't visited myself.
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I think more primitive computergraphics made it necessary to tell an captivating story (you had manuals inches thick with pictures and lore and whatnot)
Last of that was in my eyes the silvercoast (or sword coast?_) games, still using prettymuch sprites and such but dungeon crawling that burrial chambers was a whole story told room by room!
(It was something like neverwinter nights or so?)
You played the game and an story unfolded, today its just an dungeon you crawl to get that sword of daisy slaying +2 but it is an much more prettier dungeon !
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