Yes PVP is unfair.
- Thread starter _Dastardly_
- Start date
I like all you ideas, but Frontier need to be carefull not re-create a easy way to exploid money again - as it was in the past. Two pirates orchestrate a PVP fight and transfered their bounty to each other. Remember once "crazy" CMDR Itchynipples had over 4 billions - and this was long before Robigo or even Powerplay 1.4 (with exzessive slaves trading) started.
More and transparent information, even in a non-personal form always lowers the barrier to bring some people back to open.
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I'm amused by the praise I'm seeing for all the "good ideas in this thread." Not because they're not good ideas, but because many of them were covered in 2013 in the DDF and the best ones were incorporated into FD's own Proposal documents. That Sandro is in this thread nearly three years later asking for ideas and getting many replies that cover the same ground is just weird.
Instead of more band-aids, FD should endeavour to steer development towards the model they themselves outlined in both their original and revised Crime And Punishment documents. If they can get that foundation working, then will be the time to apply custom mechanisms for dealing with the exploits and edge-case behaviours that will inevitably emerge.
Fix the criminal response system first so that all players, PvP and PvE alike, are playing in an environment that makes sense and feels realistic. Then start worrying about how to deal with the psychos. What's happening at the moment seems less like using band-aids on an injured body and more like trying to use them to hold together a skinless bag of organs.
Now if the game is never going to get close to Proposal levels of detail then fine, band-aid away for the next few years because it's better than nothing. But if that's the case then at least have the honesty to tell us officially that the Proposals are no longer relevant. Because right now what I'm seeing is the Lead Designer asking for feedback, members of the community providing it, and other members praising the best ideas. There's something awfully familiar about it all, but discussions and good ideas are only worth the effort if they're implemented.
Instead of more band-aids, FD should endeavour to steer development towards the model they themselves outlined in both their original and revised Crime And Punishment documents. If they can get that foundation working, then will be the time to apply custom mechanisms for dealing with the exploits and edge-case behaviours that will inevitably emerge.
Fix the criminal response system first so that all players, PvP and PvE alike, are playing in an environment that makes sense and feels realistic. Then start worrying about how to deal with the psychos. What's happening at the moment seems less like using band-aids on an injured body and more like trying to use them to hold together a skinless bag of organs.
Now if the game is never going to get close to Proposal levels of detail then fine, band-aid away for the next few years because it's better than nothing. But if that's the case then at least have the honesty to tell us officially that the Proposals are no longer relevant. Because right now what I'm seeing is the Lead Designer asking for feedback, members of the community providing it, and other members praising the best ideas. There's something awfully familiar about it all, but discussions and good ideas are only worth the effort if they're implemented.
Well actually it works easily. Someone you killed has report crimes against you on, and you just killed that someone and the crime got sent out bubble wide on the kill warrant list. Now you go request docking clearance. Obviously when you request clearance via your on board system there is a handshake between your ship and that stations docking computer, which checks the kill warrant system for your Commander ID, not the ship ID because you could have changed ships. When you come back wanted and the station is in "sec" space, the station docking computer automatically relays the KOS to the station security ships as well as the station defensive weapons and BOOM. The station collects the bounty and disperses a "percentage" of the bounty that was on you that the station collected to each of the PC's that you killed, to receive the bounty to help offset the cost of the rebuild they had to pay after you killed them. If brand new sidey with no rebuy cost, those newbies get 100% of that bounty from the station kill (only the bounty from their kill).
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Turn off report crimes against me?
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I can't help QFT this. Stick to the plan FDEV, it's a good plan. Many of us bought the game after sifting through the DDF to see what it was about.
As in real life a good idea is never enough, but a good timing is as well important. So probably for Frontier this is now a good timing - so let's catch the ball and play some good (even old) ideas back...
Don't you realize people go to those other modes BECAUSE of those crappy bad habits. Blockading, killing for no reason, being a jerk in general. If there were stiff penalties and I knew there was a system in place that would make the "criminal" seriously decide if it was really worth it to kill someone for no reason, then I would stay in open also.
If I'm in an exploring ship, exploring, is there any reason to interdict, harass and in the end try to destroy me? That isn't piracy, that is psychopathy. Pirates go after cargo. If I don't have cargo or I'm not even in a cargo vessel, just leave me be.
If I'm in a trader or am trading in something else, then I understand that I may be a target for pirates and I'll learn to avoid them or "play the game". If I'm just carrying a bunch of mission specific stuff that giving it up would cause my mission to fail, then I'm not giving it up but I'll run and "play the game".
But with literally zero consequence to the jerk forcing me to PvP when I didn't buy Elite to PvP, yeah, I'm going to stay in solo or private. Everyone says.. ooo you bought a game with Dangerous in the title. I couldn't careless if the title was "Pink snuggle bunnies from outer space". I bought it because it is a gorgeous space sim that let's me explore the far reaches of the galaxy with great graphics, realistic physics and the ability to socialize with my friends. Not to get interdicted every 30 seconds when I play in Open.
All these people saying there is very little PVP in open are full of it. Every time I go into Open I get interdicted every 30 seconds for no damn reason. There is no PvP because they don't interdict someone that they know would be able to fight back, just the people with low combat rank and weaker ships and then blow them up. They are right there is no PvP, just PG (Player Ganking).
Make the penalties cause the jerk to at least give killing someone for no reason a second thought and then I'll see you out in the black in Open.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Given that the only play number we have seen was the "60,000,000 hours played" statement in the Dev Video on AWS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0), I would be somewhat surprised if Frontier started publishing any of their game analytics.
It could be inferred from the apparent new focus on consequences for killing players that Frontier may be concerned about the population of Open - but, as with other speculation, it is not known.
Agreed. I wasn't in at Kickstarter (entirely missed that ED was being made due to dealing with M9 earthquakes in Japan and the aftermath) and only came in at Premium Beta about 5 seconds after I first heard about the game, but I was reading a few of the DDF articles last night and there's already a wealth of opinions and "decisions" made there which are being discussed here and other threads as "new" ideas. Which only makes me feel more rather annoyed at Sandro's post than I was initially (and conveyed my annoyance in an earlier post).
I'll just reiterate a point I made in that earlier post: detection of indiscriminate murder would be made so much easier for FDEV's coders if the game client knew that piracy was being declared - or not. And even if piracy was being declared and indiscriminate murder was enacted upon it's name, the game at least knows this and can deal with the situation appropriately. None of this pfaffing about with having to decide who's got what rank and the ship loadouts - that's just overcomplicated nonsense talk that one.
It's a tough one because of the impact to "legitimate" piracy. On one hand, the consequence for murder should be consistent but on the other you really want to ensure player versus player piracy isn't totally discouraged.
Purely speaking from a game play perspective, I think player pirates should have a system of code that supports their career. A way for them to "legitimately" pirate, enforce their threat and be rewarded for not enforcing it if their demands are met. Yet still have a consequence for the criminal act itself (robbery).
We can see if another player is wanted (in that jurisdiction) quite easily. But what if we could see if they're wanted for piracy? Or just murder? And what if we scrapped the idea that every single crime was only ever recorded in a single system? This would let us know a lot more about a wanted player's intent, improve the consequences for their crimes and better support those who want a life of crime (to enjoy the game).
If I'm trading and I'm interdicted by a player who I can see is wanted for piracy, I'm going to be more inclined to pay up on demand (and their demand needs to be formalised via the game UI, so the event is traceable as well as easily communicated). If I refuse and get destroyed, their piracy wanted status remains prominent. If I submit to their demands and they let me go, their wanted status continues to lean further towards piracy and further away from murder.
But if someone just kills me, with no demand for cargo (or they demand cargo and I have none), then their wanted status quickly shifts into the murder category. If they demand cargo and I submit, but they still kill me, this transition is much faster.
This scale could be used in more ways than just a method of communicating a criminal's intent. A player with a high piracy wanted status will be welcomed by prominent piracy factions, given higher values for their stolen goods and get the very best targeted pirate missions.
They should not be able to dock at most lawful stations, no. But they can find their haven in unlawful ones. Same for murderers. They should have even fewer lawful stations to choose from. But several cutthroat outposts in anarchy systems should support them and offer illegal contacts and even rewards for murder in opposition lawful systems (sort of like the opposite of bounties).
And I don't think this status should be eradicated by ship loss. It should take a lot of time, or positive actions, or a lot of loss through rebuy (monetary value) to "lose" their criminal status.
This could also be used to apply a more sensible approach to smaller crimes. I might be wanted for assault. Everyone can see I'm wanted for assault. And the reaction to me should be appropriate.
Just some thoughts, really.
Edit: And this system wouldn't really need to treat pvp crime differently to pve, either.
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so many of the suggestions sound reasonable however, pretty much all of them are open to abuse.
For example, Fugitive on killing, incurring rebuy costs, cant dock etc for the killer. All you need to do is bash your sidewinder up a little bit to say about 2% health. Wait until you see a player ship boosting (esp if it's a trade or expensive ship) out of the station and Bam they're screwed over or have them crash into you and blow up while you're res hunting. Same result. Even better damage your 30 million rebuy cutter to a couple of % and do the same. Poor victim now has to pay 30 million on top of their rebuy.
The same goes for rank difference kills. Some players will either wipe their save or buy a new cheap account and deliberately go for high rank traders or players just to grief them. Trust me. it'll happen..
The aim should be two fold. Firstly to encourage people to play in open, and secondly provide a realistic but fair system of justice. Underpinning this it needs to be un-exploitable as griefing players will just use it to create more havoc.
I still think the best option so far is to remove the re-buy cost if a player is killed by another player, perhaps in conjunction with some sort of wanted..offender.. fugitive mechanism where repeated kills of non wanted players in non anarchy/lawless systems results in increasingly punitive actions such as:
..Being unable to dock in systems with a government
..increased response by security forces(basic wanted they send out a couple of eagles, fugitive they send out a wing of corvettes...)
..you need to pay fines and bounties within a certain period of time, otherwise you go up in wanted status.
So basically, a single murder isn't going to lock you out, but repeated murders will make life really "interesting" for you. Kill as many as you want in lawless/anarchy systems, but kill in a governed system....
But, people have said if you remove the rebuy for player killed then where's the risk? Well the risk is in the lost carge(704tons of palladium is a fair whack to lost for example) or in lost exploration data. Basically, the killed loses something, but not enough to drive them into solo.
What I like about the above system is that it
1. Allows people to pvp to their hearts content without fear of sanction, or loss (they just fight it out in anarchy systems)
2. It gets back to the 1984 elite where anarchy systems really were places to be feared
3. It fixes combat logging. The reason why people combat log is the rebuy. Remove player killed rebuy and combat logging would by and large go away
4. An increasing difficulty in doing stuff for repeated offenders matches a real life justice system.
Whatever the solution is, it's not easy and very few if any games have really solved it to anyones satisfaction
For example, Fugitive on killing, incurring rebuy costs, cant dock etc for the killer. All you need to do is bash your sidewinder up a little bit to say about 2% health. Wait until you see a player ship boosting (esp if it's a trade or expensive ship) out of the station and Bam they're screwed over or have them crash into you and blow up while you're res hunting. Same result. Even better damage your 30 million rebuy cutter to a couple of % and do the same. Poor victim now has to pay 30 million on top of their rebuy.
The same goes for rank difference kills. Some players will either wipe their save or buy a new cheap account and deliberately go for high rank traders or players just to grief them. Trust me. it'll happen..
The aim should be two fold. Firstly to encourage people to play in open, and secondly provide a realistic but fair system of justice. Underpinning this it needs to be un-exploitable as griefing players will just use it to create more havoc.
I still think the best option so far is to remove the re-buy cost if a player is killed by another player, perhaps in conjunction with some sort of wanted..offender.. fugitive mechanism where repeated kills of non wanted players in non anarchy/lawless systems results in increasingly punitive actions such as:
..Being unable to dock in systems with a government
..increased response by security forces(basic wanted they send out a couple of eagles, fugitive they send out a wing of corvettes...)
..you need to pay fines and bounties within a certain period of time, otherwise you go up in wanted status.
So basically, a single murder isn't going to lock you out, but repeated murders will make life really "interesting" for you. Kill as many as you want in lawless/anarchy systems, but kill in a governed system....
But, people have said if you remove the rebuy for player killed then where's the risk? Well the risk is in the lost carge(704tons of palladium is a fair whack to lost for example) or in lost exploration data. Basically, the killed loses something, but not enough to drive them into solo.
What I like about the above system is that it
1. Allows people to pvp to their hearts content without fear of sanction, or loss (they just fight it out in anarchy systems)
2. It gets back to the 1984 elite where anarchy systems really were places to be feared
3. It fixes combat logging. The reason why people combat log is the rebuy. Remove player killed rebuy and combat logging would by and large go away
4. An increasing difficulty in doing stuff for repeated offenders matches a real life justice system.
Whatever the solution is, it's not easy and very few if any games have really solved it to anyones satisfaction
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
indeed...... when ever FD are looking towards improvements they should be going to the Design Decision Document. Indeed many players (not myself for the record) spent a lot of money to be part of the Design Decision Forum and FD kind of owe it to those people (not legally but certainly morally) to use that as a template for changes.
IF the DDF is out of the window FD need to man up and tell us that imo, and with reasons why (at least to the DDF backers)
Indeed I would love to know the official reason why the DDF is being ignored on stuff like this, there seems no upside to it from my view.
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so no CGs and ignore some of the more key areas in the game?
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Hello Commander nrage!
No ETA or guarantees but:
Hopefully at some point we will get interstellar bounties back!
We are also looking at making system security more important in terms of ship population breakdown, especially in super cruise (the goal to make the extremes of the scale well, more extreme). This could also include response times.
That's good news, I was wondering about interstellar-bounties as we hadn't heard anything about them since last summer.
If players could play the role of official security/police, it may make system security much more effective (especially in starter systems). How I see it working is;
- Player has to be clean and have a reputation of friendly or allied with the faction they wish to police for
- Player can only use police powers within the faction jurisdiction
- Faction ranking would be associated with law enforcement activities rather than what we currently have with nonsensical navy missions
- Low ranking players are only able to police for a minor faction (limited jurisdiction), once they rank up above a certain level they can police across the whole major faction
- Players cannot act as police for multiple major factions at once
- While policing, players get crime alerts to crimes committed in their factions jurisdiction; can be either NPC crimes or player crimes (subject to 'crimes against me' turned on)
- Catching criminals (fine, kill or potentially arrest once we have first-person mode) gives the police player a 'security bond' which they can cash in at any station in their factions jurisdiction. Bond value would be equivalent to fine given or bounty claimed (would receive bounty payout too)
- Illegal cargo can be confiscated from smugglers at the police player's discretion
- When a player is policing it shows in their identification panel that they are security forces for the local or major faction
- Other players will automatically show up as green/orange/red depending on that other players reputation with the faction in question (only active while policing)
- Special police paint jobs would be available for the faction the player is policing for (paint job is only available while policing for faction, is not accessible otherwise)
Also, tracking-down wanted criminal players has always been an issue in ED - the top 5 system bounties are the only hint bounty hunters get (and that seems to be bugged still). I think there needs to be more tools at the bounty hunters disposal. Here are my ideas;
- More system by system crime & bounty data needs to be available to view (like how trade/exploration data works) with galaxy map overlay
- 'Last known location' of a criminal player needs to be based on identifying scans made by other players (to filter out solo players)
- Bounties for serious crimes (murder/piracy) need to go up (by a lot, probably by 10x)
- 1,000,000 Cr bounty cap is way too low and needs removing (a cap on claimable bounties reduces the incentive to hunt notorious criminals)
- Major faction bounties should be brought back in with a 'most wanted' list for each major faction
- Local top 5 bounties list should be top 10 and needs to be regional rather than system specific
- Bounty-hunters, pirates and police need separate progression/reward systems (specific system permits, unique modules for each career or even some unique ships)
- Tracker limpets (expire after a set time - could be rating based)
With even a few of these suggestions implemented, we would probably see more traders/ non-combat orientated players returning to open.
EDIT: Also, CMDR Hagglebeard had some good ideas about how the 'crime reports' system news screen should be changed on this thread; https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=228032
Thanks
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
*Mod hat off
I was about to post this exactly.
Player vs player bounty mechanisms are fine and I find it is already quite well balanced with legacy fines and all so to avoid exploits etc.
So what needs to be buffed is the unilateral P v "the machine" consequences, which at the moment as the OP points out are really really weak. So much so that there is currently no recognizable indication in game that murder consequences in an anarchy system is any different from a High Security.
Increasing the consequences for murder relative to the security levels of a system is key:
- Higher bounties for murder or attackes of Pilots Federation pilots than NPC´s.
- The thresholds for triggering interstellar fines, bounties AND legacy fines (i.e. wihtin the jurisdiction of a major faction: whole of the Empire, Federation or Alliance spaces) must be put back in the game and made low enough so to represent a significant impact to players operations.
- Security ship response needs to also be dramatically faster in systems whith higher degrees of security. Please do not make it just higher for High Security alone, and rather have a gradient range all the way from anarchy to highest security.
- "No dock" restrictions applied in corresponding jurisdictions
Conversely, trading profits in Anarchy systems needs to reflect the higher risk of no security with a corresponding premium and viceversa.
Hello Commander nrage!
No ETA or guarantees but:
Hopefully at some point we will get interstellar bounties back!
We are also looking at making system security more important in terms of ship population breakdown, especially in super cruise (the goal to make the extremes of the scale well, more extreme
I was about to post this exactly.
Player vs player bounty mechanisms are fine and I find it is already quite well balanced with legacy fines and all so to avoid exploits etc.
So what needs to be buffed is the unilateral P v "the machine" consequences, which at the moment as the OP points out are really really weak. So much so that there is currently no recognizable indication in game that murder consequences in an anarchy system is any different from a High Security.
Increasing the consequences for murder relative to the security levels of a system is key:
- Higher bounties for murder or attackes of Pilots Federation pilots than NPC´s.
- The thresholds for triggering interstellar fines, bounties AND legacy fines (i.e. wihtin the jurisdiction of a major faction: whole of the Empire, Federation or Alliance spaces) must be put back in the game and made low enough so to represent a significant impact to players operations.
- Security ship response needs to also be dramatically faster in systems whith higher degrees of security. Please do not make it just higher for High Security alone, and rather have a gradient range all the way from anarchy to highest security.
- "No dock" restrictions applied in corresponding jurisdictions
Conversely, trading profits in Anarchy systems needs to reflect the higher risk of no security with a corresponding premium and viceversa.
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Especially in open mode...
Perhaps that should be the "dividends" should be higher, so that if someone escorts you they are paid according to the level of danger. Trade profits should remain balanced by the current economy model IMO.
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My main issue (as someone who rarely gets into PvP) is the bounties given for killing people. If I try to smuggle 1 single imperial slave into a station where they're illegal, and I get caught, I am hit with a fine that is at least 13,000 credits. If I straight up murder someone (regardless if it's AI or a player), I can end up with a bounty as low as 5,000 credits (possibly 0 if I'm Archon level 5 and I do it in an Archon territory).
That's just flat out insane. (Yes, fines and bounties are different).
Kill an unwanted player in and your bounty becomes equal to their rebuy cost + the regular fine.
While you're at it, change how speeding violations work. If someone dies in the collision, both parties are subjected to a fine with cost identical to the rebuy of the destroyed vessel, with a 5 to 10 minute timer before it turns into a bounty. Doesn't matter if you're the one who died in the collision - you'll still have to pay that rebuy cost as a fine. This will take care of the speed griefing that some people seem to find oh so hillarious, as all that'll happen now is that they die and have to pay their rebuy cost twice, and their target will have the pay the rebuy cost of a cheap ship once without having the station kill them.
Wouldn't that encourage people to gank sidewinders? I don't think rebuy of the victim should play a part in the bounty issued.
I do agree that murder bounties need to be higher though, probably 10x what they are now.
StefanOS
Volunteer Moderator
Hello Commander nrage!
No ETA or guarantees but:
Hopefully at some point we will get interstellar bounties back!
We are also looking at making system security more important in terms of ship population breakdown, especially in super cruise (the goal to make the extremes of the scale well, more extreme
That sounds nice..... Sandro ED need some basic improvements to make players see & feel that they are in a living galaxy. Right now there is much room for improvement on this matter (and on other basic things in ED).
Lets face the through, many play alone not as group, f.e traders. The save way to do it is in SOLO to avoid PvP players in OPEN. What can a player in OPEN do when he is interdicted by AI or a player or a wing?
A slow trader or a starter with a small ship cant run away....
I am not a starter, but in my trade anaconda I am a nice target for player wings.
So what I am missing is a way call for help - I mean help that's coming fast enough to really help. Call other players can work only if someone is around, this will not be the case most times. So a way to help players against PIRATS, and other threats would be to implement really responsive security forces.
I know crimes are reported already automatically, but the response is just to SLOW.
What I think could help:
- give the player a way to ask for police assistance manually (f.e. as soon as the pirate starts the interdiction the player can send an SOS call)
- give the player a response from the police, f.e. a time frame how long it will take to get help, a response like: Hello CMDR. we did get your SOS call, police force is near and will be at your location in appr. 1 minute, start your BEACON.
- in a anarchy system with no police other NPC's could do the same .... come for help.
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How about the difference between your ship's rebuy cost and theirs being added to your bounty then? That would cut down ganking and encourage ppl to PvP against comparable or better vessels.
In addition, if someone initiates the combat the other person should not get a bounty/fine for defending themselves (whether NPC or PC).