Anaconda NPC Maneuverability Bothers Me.

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

[video=youtube_share;sdMGgtsODoM]https://youtu.be/sdMGgtsODoM[/video]

Here's a short clip of the Anaconda I killed for an assassination mission. It was absolutely fun, no questioning that, but I hate how it flew. The Anaconda, according to lore, was the largest freighter ever produced in space at the time of it's release. However, the Anaconda pilot in the video above flies like a fighter pilot would. While fun, I'd prefer it to change so that the Annie holds it's position and relies on turrets, more often than not. This won't negatively impact it's performance - the Annie in the video above only utilized those two multicannon turrets, because it couldn't bring any of it's other guns to bear - and thus couldn't kill my Viper, which has no additional armor past stock config. If it maintained steady position and used all turrets, it would've certainly made short work of me, and it would've looked badass as can be.

Thoughts?

EDIT: This is asking for a change in NPC Anaconda's behavior and outfitting, not for a buff/nerf to the ship.

 

[CMDR Dumbfries]

I don't know. That looks like acceptable evasive maneuvers for a large ship. NPC Corvettes on the other hand...

 

[Jabezz]

There are many many discussions regarding this topic, especially the use of turrets on the larger ships.

I have a Conda myself and do not rely on turrets, I fly it with gimbals and with the A rated thrusters, good pip management and FA control you can make it quite manoeuvrable.

But I agree with you in that the larger ships, Conda, Cutter, Vette should have a turret strategy open to them if they choose. With the current state of turrets and their low DPS it's not that good, certainly in PvP a turret strategy is out of the question.

In my opinion there is no way a single small fighter should be able to take out one of these ships either PvE or PvP.

 

[who?]

It's always seemed unnaturally agile (particularly in its pitch rate) for its size - perhaps to do with its freakishly light hull?

When I was in my Vulture I used to try to stick right by its tail, but it could just pitch up and bring its guns to bear so... what's the point. So more often than not I'd just get into range, pull the trigger and hang there until one of our shields went down. Not the more exciting or engaging gameplay, but it pays the bills.

I think FD are still a bit wary of turrets; they aren't exactly thrilling or skilful to use, and because of their constant damage-dealing they risk being overpowered. I agree with you, I'd prefer to see the larger craft not being mega-fighters, but rather juggernauts with attitude, brimming with turrets. The Conda wouldn't have to be a pig, it could be (say) a really fast craft with a very slow acceleration curve, so if you jump one you need to bring it down relatively quick or it's gone.

(I think this thread is a bit academic.. I don't think there's any way this is going to be changed, the Anaconda Pilot's Union would riot!)

 

[Jabezz]

(I think this thread is a bit academic.. I don't think there's any way this is going to be changed, the Anaconda Pilot's Union would riot!)

Very true! We would!

But FD are not shy of nerfing ship capabilities that's for sure. They have done it before.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

It's always seemed unnaturally agile (particularly in its pitch rate) for its size - perhaps to do with its freakishly light hull?

When I was in my Vulture I used to try to stick right by its tail, but it could just pitch up and bring its guns to bear so... what's the point. So more often than not I'd just get into range, pull the trigger and hang there until one of our shields went down. Not the more exciting or engaging gameplay, but it pays the bills.

I think FD are still a bit wary of turrets; they aren't exactly thrilling or skilful to use, and because of their constant damage-dealing they risk being overpowered. I agree with you, I'd prefer to see the larger craft not being mega-fighters, but rather juggernauts with attitude, brimming with turrets. The Conda wouldn't have to be a pig, it could be (say) a really fast craft with a very slow acceleration curve, so if you jump one you need to bring it down relatively quick or it's gone.

(I think this thread is a bit academic.. I don't think there's any way this is going to be changed, the Anaconda Pilot's Union would riot!)

The Anaconda is very maneuverable when it needs to be, because it's cargo racks move around the insides of the ship as the ship turns, to throw it's weight around. However, it doesn't seem to be working out for that Anaconda.

I agree with you on turrets. I think all of their prices need to be halved, at the least, and they need to have some tracking advantage over gimballed weapons. Perhaps faster tracking times and slight resistance to chaff?

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There are many many discussions regarding this topic, especially the use of turrets on the larger ships.

I have a Conda myself and do not rely on turrets, I fly it with gimbals and with the A rated thrusters, good pip management and FA control you can make it quite manoeuvrable.

But I agree with you in that the larger ships, Conda, Cutter, Vette should have a turret strategy open to them if they choose. With the current state of turrets and their low DPS it's not that good, certainly in PvP a turret strategy is out of the question.

In my opinion there is no way a single small fighter should be able to take out one of these ships either PvE or PvP.

I've flown a Conda, and it certainly isn't as fun to use turrets, since you can't actually watch the battle going on from the pilot's chair. Some additional cameras would be nice, but this is mainly focused on NPC behaviour and outfits, rather than a nerf/buff to the ship itself.

 

[Zelos1983]

1. The flight model is arcady. We have to accept that it isn't very believable.
2. The Anaconda's firing arcs are limited. With the nerfed turret fighting, it woulnd't probably be able to deal much damage if it would follow that lore description
3. The Anaconda is actually a multi-purpose ship and it's smaller than the T9. It also weighs only 400t.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Really? I know youve been around long enough to know NPC ratings have meaning and depending on the rating also determines how their ship is fitted and utilized. That was a Novice NPC.... far from a trophy kill.

The enhanced turrets and what not for larger ships would only make them OP because now it can just set in one spot and AFK farm a Resource zone for a whole day without checking on it. If they did nothing to turrets but nerfd the Conda to the point of relying on turrets.... congratulations we now have another trade only ship. The only time that style of fighting will come into play is when FD let us pilot the capital size stuff. Not to mention its space with nothing to hide behind, you really think its intelligent to just sit in one spot?

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

1. The flight model is arcady. We have to accept that it isn't very believable.
2. The Anaconda's firing arcs are limited. With the nerfed turret fighting, it woulnd't probably be able to deal much damage if it would follow that lore description
3. The Anaconda is actually a multi-purpose ship and it's smaller than the T9. It also weighs only 400t.

1- So? Changing the NPC behavior to make it a bit more believable, and more combat-effective, is a good thing IMO.

2- It has fine turret arcs as long as you don't stay directly behind it. it should turn when you go for that, though, especially if it lacks an escort.

3- The Anaconda is, by lore, a freighter. It has the ability to change roles sometimes, but the ship designation is that of a freighter. It may only weight 400t, but it's 250m long. It's obviously not in any way sensible for it to toss around like that.

Lastly, why bring up these points? I'm not saying that this is a bug nor it is wrong - but it's not perfect and should be changed. There's nothing wrong with that.

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Really? I know youve been around long enough to know NPC ratings have meaning and depending on the rating also determines how their ship is fitted and utilized. That was a Novice NPC.... far from a trophy kill.

The enhanced turrets and what not for larger ships would only make them OP because now it can just set in one spot and AFK farm a Resource zone for a whole day without checking on it. The only time that style of fighting will come into play is when FD let us pilot the capital size stuff. Not to mention its space with nothing to hide behind, you really think its intelligent to just sit in one spot?

Elite NPCs do the same thing.

Alright, forget the turret upgrades, they were slightly off-topic. This is an NPC behavior and outfitting discussion, not a Anaconda buff/nerf discussion. If the NPC sits in one spot, it can deal more damage and it can still turn when you try to get behind it.

 

[Midian27]

1- So? Changing the NPC behavior to make it a bit more believable, and more combat-effective, is a good thing IMO.

2- It has fine turret arcs as long as you don't stay directly behind it. it should turn when you go for that, though, especially if it lacks an escort.

3- The Anaconda is, by lore, a freighter. It has the ability to change roles sometimes, but the ship designation is that of a freighter. It may only weight 400t, but it's 250m long. It's obviously not in any way sensible for it to toss around like that.

Lastly, why bring up these points? I'm not saying that this is a bug nor it is wrong - but it's not perfect and should be changed. There's nothing wrong with that.

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Elite NPCs do the same thing.

Alright, forget the turret upgrades, they were slightly off-topic. This is an NPC behavior and outfitting discussion, not a Anaconda buff/nerf discussion. If the NPC sits in one spot, it can deal more damage and it can still turn when you try to get behind it.

Turrets are terrible. Anaconda handling is fine.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Go find an Elite Conda in a H.Res and compare the encounters. If you are talking mission targets, fine. To my memory they do feel like more of a pushover than a non-target. Maybe FD did that so people wont complain about impossible to beat mission targets, idk. I do know that there are NPCs that fight really well.

 

[Jabezz]

The enhanced turrets and what not for larger ships would only make them OP because now it can just set in one spot and AFK farm a Resource zone for a whole day without checking on it. The only time that style of fighting will come into play is when FD let us pilot the capital size stuff. Not to mention its space with nothing to hide behind, you really think its intelligent to just sit in one spot?

I've seen a few posts with this kind of comment about being able to park the ship slap bang in the middle of the action, put your feet up and have a cuppa as the ship does the business. It's absolutely not do-able. As I posted earlier I have a Conda, it's A rated and even if turrets had the same strength as fixed weapons, sure it would last a bit longer but in a CZ, comp nav beacon or military strike zone with 4 or more high level NPCs continually on you, your pride and joy is going to be in the mire very quickly without any input from you.

 

[SushiCW]

I think nearly all of the medium-large ships are far too nimble.

The chart here always depresses me: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465

I could go on all day about some of the insane stuff, but here's my favorite:

* At 100% throttle, the following ships pitch faster than the Eagle: Clipper, Conda, Corvette, Vulture, FDS, Asp Scout, FAS.

In actual gameplay, large and medium ships also tend to be much further under "optimal" thruster mass than small ones, giving them even more of a turn rate boost.

I don't know how to change it without breaking the game, though. It does bug me a lot anyway.

 

[Jabezz]

I think nearly all of the medium-large ships are far too nimble.

The chart here always depresses me: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465
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Great link, I'd not seen that data before. Very interesting.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Go find an Elite Conda in a H.Res and compare the encounters. If you are talking mission targets, fine. To my memory they do feel like more of a pushover than a non-target. Maybe FD did that so people wont complain about impossible to beat mission targets, idk. I do know that there are NPCs that fight really well.

It's not only that they fight badly, but they're goofy. It's just silly that they'd fly like that, and I'd simply like a change in NPC behavior. That's my entire argument - nothing to debunk.

I said that the damage output would be increased to sweeten the deal for other players, because I personally don't care. This is a suggestion to FD, but it should've been in the suggestions forum. Will ask a mod to move it.

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

3- The Anaconda is, by lore, a freighter. It has the ability to change roles sometimes, but the ship designation is that of a freighter. It may only weight 400t, but it's 250m long. It's obviously not in any way sensible for it to toss around like that.

Sounds like you think it's wrong, or you wouldn't be posting. I agree on the 'turn on a dime' type of maneuvres - sometimes you see that sort of thin in other games as the server image of the battle catches up with your client version of the ships positions and orientation, but it happens too much and too often to be that.

Lore for the Anaconda also states its used in smaller navies as a light Frigate stand-in - the freight versions would never have been outfitted with A-class thrusters and heavy powerplants (or even weapons either probably). You'd expect that the latest variants fit for combat fly far superior in every respect to a freighter version.

The player-run Anaconda is quite formidable - why shouldn't the NPC-flown versions be? FWIW, the SW-lore Millennium Falcon is also a freighter. It certainly doesn't fly like one!

 

[xondk]

1. The flight model is arcady. We have to accept that it isn't very believable.
2. The Anaconda's firing arcs are limited. With the nerfed turret fighting, it woulnd't probably be able to deal much damage if it would follow that lore description
3. The Anaconda is actually a multi-purpose ship and it's smaller than the T9. It also weighs only 400t.

1: what do you mean by arcady? if Elite is arcady in my eyes, it would mean it is loose, and non realistic, which at least in my mind, compared to other games including Star Citizen, is not true, ships in Elite have momentum and weight. and a lot of other things missing in other games.
2: turreted anaconda is insanely underestimated in my opinion, few players use them because they don't do 'much' damage, yet people seem to forget that turrets can keep firing at angles that gimballed and fixed never could, and as such the amount of sustained fire time is greatly increased, on a low manoeuvrability ship this is a great advantage.

https://youtu.be/sdMGgtsODoM

Here's a short clip of the Anaconda I killed for an assassination mission. It was absolutely fun, no questioning that, but I hate how it flew. The Anaconda, according to lore, was the largest freighter ever produced in space at the time of it's release. However, the Anaconda pilot in the video above flies like a fighter pilot would. While fun, I'd prefer it to change so that the Annie holds it's position and relies on turrets, more often than not. This won't negatively impact it's performance - the Annie in the video above only utilized those two multicannon turrets, because it couldn't bring any of it's other guns to bear - and thus couldn't kill my Viper, which has no additional armor past stock config. If it maintained steady position and used all turrets, it would've certainly made short work of me, and it would've looked badass as can be.

Thoughts?

EDIT: This is asking for a change in NPC Anaconda's behavior and outfitting, not for a buff/nerf to the ship.

That said, the video is not a great example of fighting, way way to far off to take advantage of the agility difference between the ships, at that great a range, there isn't really going to be an issue for the big ship regardless of it being slower in turning, because range gives that great an advantage, the agility of a viper comes into account below around 500 meters, the closer the better. You will realize when this close that staying behind something like an anaconda suddenly becomes quite a lot easier once you get the hang of it.

So yeah, the distance is the enemy of agility, to explain it as simply as possible, the further away the agile ship is from the less agile ship, the longer a distance it needs to travel to keep its angle of attack the same, for example, think of a line along the centerline of the anaconda, the anaconda turns slowly but lifts its centerline, the line the viper wants to be behind to stay behind the anaconda, the anaconda may only lift it say 10 meters, from its original point, but stretch that line out to the range of the viper, and suddenly that line has lifted a LOT more, and that's the range the viper needs to cover, which it can't at long ranges.
This doesn't mean the anaconda is extra agile or being given a boost, it means the viper pilot isn't making use of the viper's advantage. Its based around geometry. So nothing wrong is happening in this video at all.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

As stated on page one, we have a quite competent CMDR flying against a novice NPC. This is hardly a good measure of the AI's capabilities, so I don't really think the video means anything.
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However, the AI should definitely know where its turrets are and make attempts to give them firing solutions, especially if the AI feels it needs to rely on them.
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That being said, until someone posts a video of them doing that/not doing that, this thread is rather meaningless.

 

[xondk]

As stated on page one, we have a quite competent CMDR flying against a novice NPC. This is hardly a good measure of the AI's capabilities, so I don't really think the video means anything.
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However, the AI should definitely know where its turrets are and make attempts to give them firing solutions, especially if the AI feels it needs to rely on them.
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That being said, until someone posts a video of them doing that/not doing that, this thread is rather meaningless.

"As stated on page one", ok, what I see in the video is not good flying and this is the only thing I can judge from, engaging the target from that far away nullifies his agility benefit, so yeah, until I see a video of someone using a fighter against an anaconda properly, meaning up close and personal where the agility really matters, and the anaconda out turning them then, then I will agree that npc's have an advantage that allows them to out turn what they should, until then yeah...

 

[Psycho Romeo]

"As stated on page one", ok, what I see in the video is not good flying and this is the only thing I can judge from, engaging the target from that far away nullifies his agility benefit, so yeah, until I see a video of someone using a fighter against an anaconda properly, meaning up close and personal where the agility really matters, and the anaconda out turning them then, then I will agree that npc's have an advantage that allows them to out turn what they should, until then yeah...

Have you read the thread? At all? Or did you just read the title and watch the video?
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The event was an assassination mission. That viper probably took on some kind of escort before bringing that anaconda down to something like 1%, and sustained heavy damage in the process. The pilot reengaged the anaconda, took some fire on approach, and then destroyed it. In the process, the pilot noted that the anaconda had a sub-optimal tactic of trying to swim after a faster and more maneuverable opponent, instead of using a more durability oriented tactic. That's what this thread is about - the AI's tactics. Nothing else. -clap-clap-
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That being said, big ships aren't necessarily supposed to fit with the intention of fighting smaller ones so I don't see a reason they'd need to want to fit turrets in most cases. That's what the escorts are for.