Combat Loggers... how many are there!!!! What kind of punishment do they receive and when?

[Navigare Necesse Est]

You shouldnt be able to log off in combat, period. If the player pulls the pin, the ship should stay online for 5 minutes as punishment for cheating.

You shouldn't be able to attack unwilling players. If a player pulls a trigger on someone who doesn't agree to PvP it is harrassment and the offender should be banned.

We can go on in circles like this endlessly.

What this game needs is a PvP system where people opt in deliberately. Then we can talk about "punishment".

 

[duanedibly]

You shouldn't be able to attack unwilling players. If a player pulls a trigger on someone who doesn't agree to PvP it is harrassment and the offender should be banned.

We can go on in circles like this endlessly.

What this game needs is a PvP system where people opt in deliberately. Then we can talk about "punishment".

Luckily this system exists already..its called open mode.

 

[Siobhan]

Luckily this system exists already..its called open mode.

That's just making PVP mode the default. That's not opt-in, that's opt-out.

 

[babelfisch]

Luckily this system exists already..its called open mode.

I just learned that the PvP community thinks combat logging is cheating even when you are in Mobius. I don't want to interact with such a community, luckily they are only a very small but vocal minority.

 

[Thaliesin]

I've yet to be interdicted by pirates... where do they usually roam these days? I'd like to try the experience...
Is combat logging that superior to high-waking against a wing of pirates armed with fixed weaponry?

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Its time people stopped using poor behavior from CMDR's as an excuse to cheat. In a MP game all we really have is the game integrity and if that is lost then all is lost. So many games have fallen by the way side because cheating isn't dealt with.

Two separate issues here people.

A. Poor and undesirable CMDR behavior, which is a topic in itself
and
B. People avoiding loss by using an ungraceful exit of the game that the devs have confirmed they consider cheating.

We are discussing B here. A does not excuse B in any way shape or form they are two separate issues completely, A needs dealing with absolutely but B needs stamping on harshly because when you condone and excuse cheating in a game you may as well go the whole hog and run shield scripts or damage multipliers because "hey I was the victim of undesirable CMDR behavior". Where do you draw the line?

You draw it at the devs door and they have already stated;

and here

Being a cheater apologist makes you a disgrace to the online gaming community and as bad as they are. Cheaters should be outed and removed from the game, not excused and promoted as acceptable.

Its a sad state of affairs that so many people think this is OK and not only defendable but acceptable.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Its time people stopped using poor behavior from CMDR's as an excuse to cheat. In a MP game all we really have is the game integrity and if that is lost then all is lost. So many games have fallen by the way side because cheating isn't dealt with.

Two separate issues here people.

A. Poor and undesirable CMDR behavior, which is a topic in itself
and
B. People avoiding loss by using an ungraceful exit of the game that the devs have confirmed they consider cheating.

We are discussing B here. A does not excuse B in any way shape or form they are two separate issues completely, A needs dealing with absolutely but B needs stamping on harshly because when you condone and excuse cheating in a game you may as well go the whole hog and run shield scripts or damage multipliers because "hey I was the victim of undesirable CMDR behavior". Where do you draw the line?

You draw it at the devs door and they have already stated;

http://i.imgur.com/UD65FFN.png

and here

Being a cheater apologist makes you a disgrace to the online gaming community and as bad as they are. Cheaters should be outed and removed from the game, not excused and promoted as acceptable.

Its a sad state of affairs that so many people think this is OK and not only defendable but acceptable.

We've been there before. I challenge these "official" opinions as wrong and disagree with them.

 

[Jukelo]

A rather negligible loss. Compare that to the time lost, the in-game money lost, mission progress lost of a guy who gets attacked involuntarily. Is that time spent worth less? Are those credits worth less?

I say no.

But these are normal, expected losses. They're part of the experience, sometimes you make credits and sometimes you lose credits. If you consider dying a loss of time when in fact it's a normal part of the gameplay, and if you can't bear the idea of losing your ship, your cargo, your vouchers, your exploration data, then you shouldn't play this game at all. The perspective of loss is part of the game, and combat logging to avoid it is against the rules as defined by the devs. If you go against these rules then you should be punished, period.

 

[bladerunner900]

Its time people stopped using poor behavior from CMDR's as an excuse to cheat. In a MP game all we really have is the game integrity and if that is lost then all is lost. So many games have fallen by the way side because cheating isn't dealt with.

Two separate issues here people.

A. Poor and undesirable CMDR behavior, which is a topic in itself
and
B. People avoiding loss by using an ungraceful exit of the game that the devs have confirmed they consider cheating.

A and B are related to each other. You won't be able to solve B without first solving A. Logical really.

 

[Jockey79]

We've been there before. I challenge these "official" opinions as wrong and disagree with them.

So, the people who make the game and set the rules don't count?
If FD say it is cheating (and all Multiplayer games class combat logging as cheating as far as I know) - then it is cheating.

And they can and will take action on those who cheat.

(Though I don't class shadow bans as punishment tbh)

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

We've been there before. I challenge these "official" opinions as wrong and disagree with them.

There's literally no counter to this because you have basically closed your eyes and ears and are shouting "LALALALALLALALA I'm not listening to this!!PENGUIN". Its your choice to disagree with the stated opinions of the Devs and I guess you get to deal with any repercussions should you do things they deem against the TOS.

Alas your argument is with FD and has little to do with this thread.

A and B are related to each other. You won't be able to solve B without first solving A. Logical really.

Nonsense,

A can be fixed by clever and imaginative in game mechanics, mission boards that give us updated locations (Galnet faster than light protocol) and names of people who are player killing etc. Reward people with faction rep rather than money etc.

B should be resolved as it is in any other MP game, by the swift fall of a ban hammer.

 

[smiths121]

Hello Cmdr Theoz,

Got to page 3 skipped to page 18, as a lot of people wanted to debate why do people combat log rather than address all your questions and question your ethics. as you know, I am biased and opinionated and more PvE than PvP but I will try to answer your questions objectively.

Why Commanders play in Open if they will Combat Log in the first place? Why don't they go in solo or private groups where they deserve to be? They must have a very unstable phychological profile to do so, because it really does not make any sense to me...or stupid or smthg.

I agree with you - other pages have covered the why.

My player group of course, as well as others (Empire/Alliance/Federation-leaning fluff wise) do put their names in KoS or hunt them down ofc. But I do still wonder... ?

OK I find this a bit odd - makes the problem somewhat recursive in my opinion. Not entirely sure what else the PvP groups can do though. I would suggest running a separate list for combat loggers though and share the list with other friendly and even unfriendly groups. At least that way the dedicated PvPers can have their video recording software running. PvP not my cup of tea, but the PvP community probably do need to work together on this as it directly affects their gameplay.

I'd like you to put your thoughts in this ongoing plague for ED/H, and please if someone could remind me, what kind of punishment do they receive from FD? I remember it's shadow-ban or smthg, right? Does that take place from very first report?

I believe it takes multiple reports by more than one person to trigger a warning, and further complaints to trigger a shadow ban. This is based on the guy who got shadow-banned for cheating. Under which Combat Logging falls. Another reason I think sharing the information in the wider PvP community is important.

As a suggestion though, I'd really hope to see that FD opens up a bit of information concerning this matter. Why not publish names and punishments? Why not, us players reporting, getting some information concerning the "hacker", we have met and reported?

I would like this for all cheating - and anti-social behavior including combat logging. There was a video link from another game with the developers and QA team reading out the "excuses/pleading" emails after they had banned players for cheating. I wish I could find it now, as it seemed to unite the community in agreement, which not a lot can do!

Cheating is a no-win for the game developer - as doing something or doing nothing is going to annoy someone, and a section of the community. ED is somewhat unique in solo, PvE group and PvP can all affect each others game (same persistent universe). Open mode is even more troublesome as arguably all three sorts of players interact in the same instances - this will cause undesirable behavior (from one of the parties side).

7/12 is a high number, even with some network/instancing problems, your good self misinterpreting the 15 second countdown - there is still something or some people affecting your game play. You need to report every incident (to begin with, this will feel like you are being punished by the person you are reporting).

1) Have video evidence. I am sure you already have recording on/off and your group has a nice video gallery. Where player interaction is involved grab your netlogs as well (I think you need to turn on debugging in one of the files post release). The netlog gives server connection and timestamp allowing FD to follow up.
2) Opening the report is a bit tricky as bug reporting I think is forum based - if the bug tracker is still being used - well use this. If not explain you have the the Cmdrs name, netlog and video link available on request by PM. Netlog, the bug report and video allname and shame a Cmdr so technically be in breach of our T/C for use of the forum. I think this is one of the reasons its hard to report this sort of thing and people give up. how do you get this info to FD without breaking the rules of forum use?
3) Have a favorites folder with links to all outstanding reports you have raised (so it would be 7 from your original post).
4) If you have not had a request form QA after 3 days bump the post and indicate you have the information needed to investigate this. Do not let it rest.
5) Indicate to FD where more than one report is about the same Cmdr.

Working in QA/Support in something far removed from games, if you supply as much info as possible in the template supplied without being emotional (particularly when defining the priority of the problem) you get ma lot further. I know like it seems like a lot of work I outlined above, but it is far harder for the game developer to ignore the problem of cheating (in general) if you follow the procedures and keep raising it.

P.S. Can you take me off your kos list if I'm on it - I would not like to be on the same list as CL'gers

Cheers

Simon

 

[AJW]

The suggestion that 'combat logging' is always 'cheating' is nonsense - one cannot cheat in a game one isn't playing. And until 'Open' is given a better label ('pew-pew-kiddie gank-fest' would seem to be about right at the moment) the mere fact that someone has entered something with an entirely ambiguous name cannot possibly be taken as evidence that they have agreed to play any particular game at all (there is certainly nothing in the manual or EULA to indicate otherwise). And FD sure as heck aren't going to start banning paying customers just to satisfy the infantile cravings of a minority who can't gety their heads around the idea that trying to force people to act as victims against their will isn't going to work. If you want a 'combat-logging' free environment where everyone is playing the same game, start your own group.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

FOLD

(Yes I went there!)

Golf claps, shield and cargo scripts it is then. If you want a 'shield and cargo script' free environment where everyone is playing the same game, start your own group

 

[defekt]

Its time people stopped using poor behavior from CMDR's as an excuse to cheat. In a MP game all we really have is the game integrity and if that is lost then all is lost. So many games have fallen by the way side because cheating isn't dealt with.

Two separate issues here people.

A. Poor and undesirable CMDR behavior, which is a topic in itself
and
B. People avoiding loss by using an ungraceful exit of the game that the devs have confirmed they consider cheating.

We are discussing B here. A does not excuse B in any way shape or form they are two separate issues completely, A needs dealing with absolutely but B needs stamping on harshly because when you condone and excuse cheating in a game you may as well go the whole hog and run shield scripts or damage multipliers because "hey I was the victim of undesirable CMDR behavior". Where do you draw the line?

You draw it at the devs door and they have already stated;

http://i.imgur.com/UD65FFN.png

and here

Being a cheater apologist makes you a disgrace to the online gaming community and as bad as they are. Cheaters should be outed and removed from the game, not excused and promoted as acceptable.

Its a sad state of affairs that so many people think this is OK and not only defendable but acceptable.

FD can consider combat logging cheating all day long, every single day - it makes no material difference at all. They've painted themselves into a corner with this one with the networking mode and infrastructure that they've put in place; systems which cannot reliably identify an intentional connection drop to avoid a no win situation.

All FD can do, reliably, is support the notion that 'combat logging' is not the way that they want the game to be played. And they're doing that now, on these 'ere fora.

The day FD make it illegal to exit a computer game is the first day of the end of ED.

 

[babelfisch]

If FD say it is cheating (and all Multiplayer games class combat logging as cheating as far as I know)

B should be resolved as it is in any other MP game, by the swift fall of a ban hammer.

Please name a few, because I have never seen a MP game where quitting the game counts as cheating / results in a ban.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Please name a few, because I have never seen a MP game where quitting the game counts as cheating / results in a ban.

You are being obstreperous, Devs have confirmed they consider it a cheat, it doesn't matter what it is. Disconnecting ungracefully when in combat is considered cheating;

By definition its cheating, if you don't agree with that email M.Brookes and take it up with FD, change their mind and I'll side with you but how your definition fo cheating differs from the game makers is not for this thread.

With regards finding a MP game that bans you for cheating, just pick one they all do!.

 

[defekt]

You are being obstreperous, Devs have confirmed they consider it a cheat, it doesn't matter what it is. Disconnecting ungracefully when in combat is considered cheating;

http://i.imgur.com/UD65FFN.png

By definition its cheating, if you don't agree with that email M.Brookes and take it up with FD, change their mind and I'll side with you.

With regards finding a MP game that bans you for cheating, just pick one they all do!.

The day FD make it illegal to exit a computer game is the first day of the end of ED.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Windows allows for the killing of a process via ALT+F4 - it is a function of the OS...

Catch 22

Frontier say I cannot use a feature of the OS that I am running...
Microsoft says I can do it at any time...


End result. Company Rules are not laws - it is not illegal to combat log. However Frontier do reserve the right to remove your license at any time for any reason they see fit, just like any other software company = Don't combat log if you want to play Elite for a long time.

It really is as simple as that.


EDIT: It comes down to language used, FD say no to CL'ing... They do not say you cannot kill a process, which leaves us all in the dark again!

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

The day FD make it illegal to exit a computer game is the first day of the end of ED.

Maybe this game isn't for you?