Horizons Elite Needs Game Designers

[Blackcompany]

Mr. Braben and the flight engineers have proven their capability to make a flight sim in space. They have done a marvelous job. The numbers work; ships are of sufficient complexity that learning them is fun but not stressful. They are a joy to pilot, each with unique strengths and weaknesses and their very own feel.

Now though, these same precise, calculating engineers are trying to make a game. And it's failing. And I bet they neither realize that, nor would even understand why if they did. They plugged in numbers and got precise spawn rates, dependable RNG generation of POI and USS areas. Technically everything is working fine.

Technically.

But games, unlike flight sims, aren't purely technical affairs. Games require heart. Soul. Creative insight. Games require a mindset sometimes foreign to those who deal with precise engineering and the cold distance of Mathematica and precision calculation.

As I said elsewhere, not being a creative person is not a failure. Trying to lead a creative endeavor without yourself possessing any hint of creativity, is a failure.

Elite desperately needs the Engineers to just step away. Keep making ships and refining flight models. Sure.

But let someone else make the GAME going forward. Because right now you don't have a game. You have the best flight model in the history of space games, withering away inside a box full of RNG and disparate mechanics. No cohesion. No depth. And so it seems, no real end game for any single mechanic or set of them.

What will Exploration look like when its fully fleshed out? Or Trading? How about Wars and conflict between player factions? You probably don't even know. As far as you are concerned you plug in numbers and they work and all is well.

But its not well. The game...this loose grouping of independent mechanics totally without cohesion...its really not very good. At all.

It lacks depth. It lacks consistent rules. It lacks engaging pkay or emergent play. It lacks heart and soul.

It lacks creativity. So please, go get some.

 

[trilathon]

elite never had a big boss level at the end of the game...you're looking in the wrong place for your happy ending

It's more of a reflection of what you bring to it.

 

[Blackcompany]

I completely agree but.........

FD won't listen and, sigh, you'd better have a thick skin for what's about to descend upon you.

+1 rep.

Thanks on both counts. Braben and Co have been amazing with the flight models and foundational work. Stellar.

But its time for a creative mind to take over now, at least for the game mechanics portion.

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elite never had a big boss level at the end of the game...you're looking in the wrong place for your happy ending

Not what I am asking for. I just want a coherent, engaging game involving more than watching progress bars go up.

 

[Free Fall]

The biggest issue I see with ED and FD in general are great ideas, poorly executed.

Think of it as a whole - ED has great things, It's massive in scale, has a competent flight model, great sound design and the ships look fantastic. However, gameplay mechanics and the several features in the game are either decent to pretty bad. Take Powerplay, great idea but poorly executed. The missions, there are plenty now with updates and with the Expansion, but once again not really implemented all that well.

It's as if people at FD have individuals with amazing ideas, and the team that put it into the game just, as you say, let the numbers work it itself. There is no hand guiding it.

 

[Flimley]

Sounds as though you wish to apply for a position and solve all these problems for Frontier.

 

[Free Fall]

Sounds as though you wish to apply for a position and solve all the problems for Frontier.

And this is why good criticism can't exist.

It's not a matter of 'thinking' you could do a better job, but allowing those who already have that job work with creativity rather then be bound as they currently are. FD are a competent studio, they have vision, and they need people to take that vision and bring it life, in the game.

It's a 50/50 battle, conflicting emotions. You love ELITE, but at the same time you hate it. You see greatness off in the distance, but can't reach it. The game has moments of brilliance, but often masked with poor decisions.

 

[Blackcompany]

Sounds as though you wish to apply for a position and solve all these problems for Frontier.

Not really. I think everyone has ideas. I have apparently had one or two good ones. And some not so popular. And I am no programmer.

I merely recognize that not everyone has a creative mind. Logic and calculation and raw numbers built Elite so far. And it feels like what it is: a bunch of numbers going up and down.

I saw a video recently, of a humanoid robot. Skin, hair, the whole package. Someone made it dance. And while from a distance it looked like a human dancing, close ups revealed its robotic nature.

It was the eyes. And the movements. Cold, dead, lifeless eyes presiding over stiff movement repeated too often.

That is Elite. Under the hood you have this amazing machine. It hums. It's fascinating. It works.

But those who stop and look at it, up close, and with more than a cursory glance...they know. There's no life behind the eyes. No genuine emotion behind the up and down, back and forth motion. It's robotic; soulless and functioning but hollow and unengaging.

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And this is why good criticism can't exist.

It's not a matter of 'thinking' you could do a better job, but allowing those who already have that job work with creativity rather then be bound as they currently are. FD are a competent studio, they have vision, and they need people to take that vision and bring it life, in the game.

It's a 50/50 battle, conflicting emotions. You love ELITE, but at the same time you hate it. You see greatness off in the distance, but can't reach it. The game has moments of brilliance, but often masked with poor decisions.

Well said. I agree.

 

[JeffRyan]

Proposal: Frontier made a game I dislike.

Conclusion: Ergo Frontier can't make a game.

Anyone else see the flaw in this argument?

 

[Jetkar]

This has been mentioned before and FD are looking for the right ppl to join their team

 

[Blackcompany]

Proposal: Frontier made a game I dislike.

Conclusion: Ergo Frontier can't make a game.

Anyone else see the flaw in this argument?

Nice Stawman. You have nothing too add nor any way to debate my actual position, so just create your own windmill and joust away.

Mind you don't wear out your personal Rocinate on vain endeavors, would you.

I actually do like Elite. But I also recognize lots of untapped potential. It's that thing you begin to achieve when you graduate from windmills to sparring partners.

There is nothing wrong with wanting something you like to be better. It's often referred to as caring in modern society.

 

[Surly_Badger]

Have you ever heard the expression "Don't teach your grandma to chew cheese"?


Barring evidence from you that - for example - you've developed a game that has sold 1.4million copies, plus - why is your opinion about what FD should do more likely to result in a spectacular success and critical praise than what they're doing?

 

[Free Fall]

Braben sold me this game during his videos introducing ELITE. His enthusiasm and attitude reminded me of a time where game designers and directors had ambition, but knew their own limits. He's like a child who's letting his imagination run wild, forming a world inside his head.

And your like DAMN! This is awesome, all that they plan to achieve with an already solid game. I'm sold!

...then you realize that, at some point, all those ideas and enthusiasm doesn't reflect well on the actual game itself. You can see it, sense it.. It's there, somewhere, buried beneath all the generated content, and it needs a hand to properly guide it.

 

[faucon]

They could perhaps hire Raph Koster for some advice. Like ACE did with crowfall.

 

[JeffRyan]

Nice Stawman. You have nothing too add nor any way to debate my actual position, so just create your own windmill and joust away.

Mind you don't wear out your personal Rocinate on vain endeavors, would you.

I actually do like Elite. But I also recognize lots of untapped potential. It's that thing you begin to achieve when you graduate from windmills to sparring partners.

There is nothing wrong with wanting something you like to be better. It's often referred to as caring in modern society.

The addition, in case you missed it, was the flaw in YOUR argument.

PS. NOBODY is denying that the game could have more content and can be better. Frontier themselves acknowledge this. That doesn't mean Frontier don't have things in hand.

 

[Hooplah]

You post is entirely base on the unstated assumption that the game without your perception of heart, soul and creative insight is severely lacking. In this perspective so was every previous version of Elite since it debut in 1984. One exception would be the hardcoded missions that were in Frontier: First Encounters which would probably be more to your liking. Other advanced reconnaissance missions were also available in the higher levels. With the upcoming Engineers update the special missions continue.

Maybe unique hardcoded missions will return. Meanwhile Power Play, Open Play, Horizons and the upcoming additions through version 2.4 will certainly add to the depth of the game.

Elite is not the typical game design nor should it be. It uses elements from many aspects of game design while still being faithful to the previous versions. Comparing it to other games and wanting increased depth is more like comparing apples to oranges. The developers could have designed any type of game they desired and they specifically chose what you see before you. I for one applaud their efforts.

Elite Dangerous is the tool. The creativity is within you. If I'm not willing to support the player creativity required then I would play another game which does it for me.

 

[Blackcompany]

Have you ever heard the expression "Don't teach your grandma to chew cheese"?


Barring evidence from you that - for example - you've developed a game that has sold 1.4million copies, plus - why is your opinion about what FD should do more likely to result in a spectacular success and critical praise than what they're doing?

To be honest...brutally honest...they won't keep selling at this rate without improvements. Have you seen those review scores? The YouTube videos? Reddit discussions? This game is ripped to shreds the internet over.

So why should my suggestions matter? Because I have managed to live Elite despite its lack of content. To see its potential. To recognize that it can still be the game Braben envisioned.

And to understand something: Engineers don't write poetry. And poets don't build bridges.

You built a solid foundation. You gave it a frame, and walls. You did your job. Admirably.

But you aren't an interior decorator. And now your building, your empty shell run by robots and numbers, needs decorum. You don't hire an engineer for that. You get someone qualified for the job at hand instead.

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You post is entirely base on the unstated assumption that the game without your perception of heart, soul and creative insight is severely lacking. In this perspective so was every previous version of Elite since it debut in 1984. One exception would be the hardcoded missions that were in Frontier: First Encounters which would probably be more to your liking. Other advanced reconnaissance missions were also available in the higher levels. With the upcoming Engineers update the special missions continue.

Maybe unique hardcoded missions will return. Meanwhile Power Play, Open Play, Horizons and the upcoming additions through version 2.4 will certainly add to the depth of the game.

Elite is not the typical game design nor should it be. It uses elements from many aspects of game design while still being faithful to the previous versions. Comparing it to other games and wanting increased depth is more like comparing apples to oranges. The developers could have designed any type of game they desired and they specifically chose what you see before you. I for one applaud their efforts.

Elite Dangerous is the tool. The creativity is within you. If I'm not willing to support the player creativity required then I would play another game which does it for me.

You're making excuses for poor game design. I don't blame you; I do it, too. Because I do love Elite.

Firstly...1980's? Tech has improved more than a little. Why has the game, beyond flight models and graphics, not done the same?

Next: I don't want hardcoded, scripted missions. Don't make assumptions. Sandboxes are great. So long as the things you do in them matter. Elite lacks that. Just as it lacks character of any sort.

The creativity is within me? Fine. But video games are a visual medium. Consequences of my actions should not require my imagination in this medium, or your design has failed by definition.

Accepting what we have as good enough is a big part of why games are what they are now. So long as we continue to do so, they will not improve. It's one reason why, going forward, I will not purchase further content for Elite until its fully fleshed out and finished.

 

[amigacooke]

And to understand something: Engineers don't write poetry. And poets don't build bridges.

Oddly though, a forum poster can critique what is wrong with a game better than those who are employed in the industry.

What you have is your own opinion and assertions, either of which may, or may not, be factually correct.

PS: Engineers do write poetry, why wouldn't they?

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

They are also trying to create a fictional world, but so far have not managed to make it a believable one.

The crime system, the black market functionality, the ingame trade information, assassination missions... so many aspects worked better in "First Encounters".

Think about the human civilization that FD have created and ask yourself: Does this look believable?

Would space stations really shoot offending ships to pieces inside their own docking area, creating an unpredictable traffic hazard, endangering internal structures and ground personnel and creating the need to employ drones to clear up the debris field?

Would smugglers who get scanned before touching down on a station not get their illegal cargo confiscated immediately? Instead, they are still able to conveniently contact the black market and sell their prohibited goods, despite the station personnel being informed about it.

Shouldn't security be all over him?

If there are data couriers (as courier missions on the bb suggest), then why is commodity market data for space ports not purchasable and accessible via the station menu or system maps? If there is a lore reason (trade data embargo), then why are black markets not selling trade data?

Why are trade routes on the galaxy map showing trades that are not possible to happen between systems? (0 supply at exporting station, 0 demand at importing station, selling price below galactic average)?

So many things could be improved by just copy-pasting the gameplay mechanics from Frontier: First Encounters over and incorporate them into Elite : Dangerous. No more official, easily accessible black market contacts in the station menu, but actual contraband buyers and sellers you have to find on the bulletin board (who may turn out to be cops fining you for your crime), an actual working crime and reputation system (criminal record, only erasable by doing charity work and restoring your reputation), import/export infos that actually point traders in the right directions... I could go on, but I just keep repeating myself. I've been advocating changes like this since 1.0.

Windmills... Indeed.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

Fully agree with the OP. The "brand" BLAZE YOUR OWN TRAIL is simply there because of lacking gameplay. When they released the game in Dec 2014, they know that there's not much to do. That's when do it yourself became handy. As simple is that.

Elite needs to improve a lot in the area of multiplayer gameplay. It's 2016 now and MMOs and multiplayer games are fun to play. FDev is not an experienced multiplayer game developer. The result is Elite Dangerous. It's so focused on NPC-based, repetitive gameplay. The story was in ASCII !! (imagine ! ACSII text for a story line - see here ... blaze own trail etc.) and whatever. I repeat myself here again and again.

 

[xondk]

Proposal: Frontier made a game I dislike.

Conclusion: Ergo Frontier can't make a game.

Anyone else see the flaw in this argument?

Nice Stawman. You have nothing too add nor any way to debate my actual position, so just create your own windmill and joust away.

Mind you don't wear out your personal Rocinate on vain endeavors, would you.

I actually do like Elite. But I also recognize lots of untapped potential. It's that thing you begin to achieve when you graduate from windmills to sparring partners.

There is nothing wrong with wanting something you like to be better. It's often referred to as caring in modern society.

Strawman you mean?
I hate to break it to you, but just because there is something you don't like, doesn't mean that everyone else agree's that's what JeffRyan is pointing out.

Also I want to point out that I find Elite's missions and whatnot a lot more adaptable then a lot of other games....so yeah.

Personally I think you might be coming off on the wrong foot, but maybe not.

Is Elite perfect? heck no, could there be added more? heck yes, and more is on the way.
Does that mean they don't know what they are doing? nope, not one bit, what so ever.

Frontier is doing great, your expectations are just seem a bit off, at least in my eyes, if you've played the previous Elite's you'd know what Elite is about, and this Elite is an improvement and expanding version of that.

But yeah, what exactly is it you are expecting anyway? 'epic' missions and whatnot? not every mission can be that, heck the majority of missions can't be that, or the whole point would be lost.

Are you going to say that the missions you do in mmo's like WoW and others need changing as well? because they are at least in my mind worse. But maybe that's just me, the whole idea that you are given 'important' and essential quests 'just for you' in other games, treating you as someone "special" kinda ruins it or me, because every other player is equally special.