Horizons Elite Needs Game Designers

[Hooplah]

Blackcompany writes:

> You're making excuses for poor game design. <

Not Really. An assumption on your part? It's the Elite game I like to play per my perspective just as you want more from yours.

> I don't want hardcoded, scripted missions. Don't make assumptions. Sandboxes are great. So long as the things you do in them matter. Elite lacks that. Just as it lacks character of any sort. <

OK, no assumptions. If not hardcoded missions then what? Lots of words about lacking creativity and character but no positive suggestions as to what this creativity will be. Happens a lot on the forum. Maybe it's an, "I'll know it when I see it" response.

> I will not purchase further content for Elite until its fully fleshed out and finished. <

Entirely your decision. Might be around 2025 given Frontier Developments stated 10 year design progression. Also a lot of other posts end the same. No real shock value.

We can certainly agree to disagree. ED is many things to many players and we won't change their views as well as ours. But thanks for the thoughtful responses.

Respectively

 

[Blackcompany]

Oddly though, a forum poster can critique what is wrong with a game better than those who are employed in the industry.

What you have is your own opinion and assertions, either of which may, or may not, be factually correct.

PS: Engineers do write poetry, why wouldn't they?

Generalization. I understand exceptions exist.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

In any way, I'm looking forward to the day we finally

- get all the dots connected that belong connected
- see the love for detail that's seen i.e. in SFX or some Ship designs also appear in the game mechanics (breaking the 1-Dimensional "Goto A - do stuff - return to B - Cash in" meme that haunts many modern Games)
- are set free as Players to actually start blazing our own Trail as advertised since Day 1
- have courageous Visionaries plot the course ahead, not focussed on "lowest common denominator" or 25 year old proven Game elements.

Bonus :
- see the Game develop from an army of isolated Scripts into an actual, creditble Sandbox
(one can dream, right? )

Either way, at least we have two isolated Sandbox elements in the Scripted Game : Influence (BGS - for as long as Frontier doesn't break the own System rules by nuking Player factions into existing infrastructures of individual Player support) and Exploration's 1st Discoveries.

I do hope they capitalize on what could easily be the most intriguing, challenging and rewarding Game elements.
Real PowerPlay (not that entirely disconnected Game of "parallel Universe Risk") and real changes & consequences for the Galaxy. Doesn't need to be big...
Just seeing Population and Wealth figures in Conflict- or Crime-ridden Systems decline (People are dying or fleeing) alone would be such a small - but impressive Detail to observe. And encourage a Player to care about it.

Small details - big difference in depth and credibility.

Let's see what this Season brings, it's still way too young to judge.

 

[Steve50]

What Elite needs sadly we will never get.

What it needs, what would transform it.. Ian Bell, sadly that will never happen which is a HUGE shame as together they can make utter magic happen.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

You post is entirely base on the unstated assumption that the game without your perception of heart, soul and creative insight is severely lacking. In this perspective so was every previous version of Elite since it debut in 1984. One exception would be the hardcoded missions that were in Frontier: First Encounters which would probably be more to your liking. Other advanced reconnaissance missions were also available in the higher levels. With the upcoming Engineers update the special missions continue.

Maybe unique hardcoded missions will return. Meanwhile Power Play, Open Play, Horizons and the upcoming additions through version 2.4 will certainly add to the depth of the game.

Elite is not the typical game design nor should it be. It uses elements from many aspects of game design while still being faithful to the previous versions. Comparing it to other games and wanting increased depth is more like comparing apples to oranges. The developers could have designed any type of game they desired and they specifically chose what you see before you. I for one applaud their efforts.

Elite Dangerous is the tool. The creativity is within you. If I'm not willing to support the player creativity required then I would play another game which does it for me.

Wrong, Hooplah,

It's not 1984 anymore. There are many games out there that adapted to 2016. I don't want a game where I have to create the missing part by myself imagining how cool it could be if it already these days could be that great. I was imagining in 1984 also an awesome Star Wars game, just from how it should have looked like and DICE totally delivered. It's such a stoobid trick to say use your imagination when the game clearly fails here and there. The multiplayer gaming experience is not to my liking, for example. FDev has no clue how to implement a propper and emerging multiplayer gameplay. You seem to like the game but there are a lot of people who expect more. Simple as that. FDev pushed a game on the marked in 2014 based on the limitations of CPU power of 1984, now they try to slowly enhance it with "Season Passes". It's ok, but it's also fact that it's a half baked game. And it costs me a lot of money to get the game (if at all) that I was expecting.

And I can tell you another secret. Elite Dangerous will not make it even to season 5. Promised! Not, if they continue with their plan of mostly NPC-based content. It's just simply mega boring. The 'emergent' comes from player interaction, not from stupid AI content.

 

[xondk]

- are set free as Players to actually start blazing our own Trail as advertised since Day 1
- have courageous Visionaries plot the course ahead, not focussed on "lowest common denominator" or 25 year old proven Game elements.

These are interesting points, specifically because they don't say all that much at least in my eyes.

1: People can do what they want and blaze their own trails as it is, the problem seems to be "I am not earning as much money as x", you know what? do plumbers and secretaries earn the same? or a plumber and a trucker for that matter? If you are motivated only by reward then yeah, there's an issue, but its an issue caused by people, not the game or its mechanics.

2: what exactly do you mean by this? Elite is doing a lot of things not done before? including the planetary generation and landing, is definitely a first in a game on this scale.

 

[Blackcompany]

Clarification: this thread was never intended to make suggestions about what needs to be added or changed within Elite. My intention was to offer a suggestion on how to ensure the correct changes were made. By turning game design over to creative people you help ensure an end result thatvus a playable game as opposed to a series of meaningless numbers going up.

Since some seem to want it - My take on needed changes (let it never be said I failed to offer suggestions as to what I want to see as well as how to get there):

A living galaxy:

This means things happening even without us. Roaming fleets fighting one another. Persistent traders that actually travel from place to place. Shifting alliances and betrayals. Actions with consequences and authorities and crime bosses with memories.
Even a shifting number of persistent security vessels in a given system, with their numbers and pilot quality based on allegiance, security level, system status and distance from a warzone.

More tools:

Repair limpets. Scanner jammers. Heat sinks that security ships react to. The ability to draw off security from their patrols and stations by raising and pirating elsewhere.

Emergent Game play:

Look at the Fuel Rats. A group who took an in game tool and made their own in game business out of it. Brilliant. We need more such tools, as above.

Imagine hiring yourself as escort for pay to miners. Or perhaps as a mercenary who uses Piracy to draw security away from their post for a fellow smuggler. Imagine intercepting persistent power play ships and stealing their data or weapons to fortify or undermine for your Faction instead, or turncoating your own data as a spy for enemy factions at risk of expulsion and being hunted.

Better missions and Piracy/bounty hunting:

Imagine pirates who try to survive. They break off and jump out, forcing a hunt. So you wake scan, and follow them across system(s) to a pirate Cove deep in an asteroid field or ring. Or a planetary base. Maybe the base is a big one and it's an ambush; maybe a smallish smuggler cache you steal from or reveal to authorities for standing and a reward. Pirates behaving this way need much bigger bounties, of course, now you need to really hunt them.

Likewise, pirates should be able to communicate with AI ships. Drop stolen goods at hidden caches and risk losing them in order to shake heat. Players could develop networks of caches for various reasons.

Missions need some dynamic aspects. Pursuing a rescue, to find it a trap instead. Buying my way out, or offering to do a job for the pirates in exchange for their letting me go.

Doing a pirate heist to find myself double crossed and needing to hunt down the mission giver by talking to folj at stations and checking wakes and USS signatures.

Locating something on a planet should not be about RNG. Give me rough coordinates, let me fly there, then use an SRV to investigate.

Let me contract players or AI to haul my mined rocks to market for a cut of the take, capped but reasonable, per trip.

Give me shady, lucrative jobs that have serious repercussions if I fail. Give us most wanted boards, with lucrative bounties on persistent characters.

Exploration:

Let a Detailed Surface Scan reveal all POI on the planet of base or outpost size, and lick them in as persistent. If I go there great; if not, let someone else do so. (Rock deposits can remain RNG Spawns).

Let me get close enough to snap "proofs" of key planets. This data would sell for more, as I have taken the time to take identifying shots as proof of the value of the planet (gas giants, water worlds, earth likes only, perhaps).

More Persistence, more consequence:

Give system factions longer memories and persistent bosses and henchmen. Let state changes from Power Play matter more, by changing system traffic, security status and the amount of persistent but slowly respawning (to a cap) security ships, pirates, traders, etc.

I want to see roaming fleets, players and AI building new stations and expanding over time. I want to have people out to get me for failing jobs or too much bounty hunting in one area. Others who think I am too hot a commodity for pirates to risk their cargo with me until the heat cools.

I want a dynamic, living galaxy, not a bunch of progress sliders. This isn't 1984.

 

[nickson]

Dice didn't delivered with Star Wars. It's very sub par with older battlefront and Battlefields game they also make. Graphic and sounds are not everything. it's for 8 years old kids.

 

[Blackcompany]

Dice didn't delivered with Star Wars. It's very sub par with older battlefront and Battlefields game they also make. Graphic and sounds are not everything. it's for 8 years old kids.

Sheerly for the record: agreed. It's more a starcwars themed multiplayer shooter, than a star wars game. Straight up cash in and the wrong foot to get off on, in my opinion. No way I am buying it.

 

[dementia]

Mr. Braben and the flight engineers have proven their capability to make a flight sim in space. They have done a marvelous job. The numbers work; ships are of sufficient complexity that learning them is fun but not stressful. They are a joy to pilot, each with unique strengths and weaknesses and their very own feel.

Now though, these same precise, calculating engineers are trying to make a game. And it's failing. And I bet they neither realize that, nor would even understand why if they did. They plugged in numbers and got precise spawn rates, dependable RNG generation of POI and USS areas. Technically everything is working fine.

Technically.

But games, unlike flight sims, aren't purely technical affairs. Games require heart. Soul. Creative insight. Games require a mindset sometimes foreign to those who deal with precise engineering and the cold distance of Mathematica and precision calculation.

As I said elsewhere, not being a creative person is not a failure. Trying to lead a creative endeavor without yourself possessing any hint of creativity, is a failure.

Elite desperately needs the Engineers to just step away. Keep making ships and refining flight models. Sure.

But let someone else make the GAME going forward. Because right now you don't have a game. You have the best flight model in the history of space games, withering away inside a box full of RNG and disparate mechanics. No cohesion. No depth. And so it seems, no real end game for any single mechanic or set of them.

What will Exploration look like when its fully fleshed out? Or Trading? How about Wars and conflict between player factions? You probably don't even know. As far as you are concerned you plug in numbers and they work and all is well.

But its not well. The game...this loose grouping of independent mechanics totally without cohesion...its really not very good. At all.

It lacks depth. It lacks consistent rules. It lacks engaging pkay or emergent play. It lacks heart and soul.

It lacks creativity. So please, go get some.

You are perhaps forgetting that from the very outset Elite was designed to be a sandbox space simulator FIRST before it is a game.

Also, it is an evolving entity so you will all just have to be patient.

 

[JeffRyan]

Strawman you mean?
I hate to break it to you, but just because there is something you don't like, doesn't mean that everyone else agree's that's what JeffRyan is pointing out.

Also I want to point out that I find Elite's missions and whatnot a lot more adaptable then a lot of other games....so yeah.

Personally I think you might be coming off on the wrong foot, but maybe not.

Is Elite perfect? heck no, could there be added more? heck yes, and more is on the way.
Does that mean they don't know what they are doing? nope, not one bit, what so ever.

Frontier is doing great, your expectations are just seem a bit off, at least in my eyes, if you've played the previous Elite's you'd know what Elite is about, and this Elite is an improvement and expanding version of that.

But yeah, what exactly is it you are expecting anyway? 'epic' missions and whatnot? not every mission can be that, heck the majority of missions can't be that, or the whole point would be lost.

Are you going to say that the missions you do in mmo's like WoW and others need changing as well? because they are at least in my mind worse. But maybe that's just me, the whole idea that you are given 'important' and essential quests 'just for you' in other games, treating you as someone "special" kinda ruins it or me, because every other player is equally special.

Pretty much, I think the game's far far far from perfect, but it still keeps me coming back. I think it requires a lot of improvement, but it's getting there compared to what we had in gamma (and on launch). It needs a lot of work and Frontier's expansions, seasons whatever make it clear they agree (AND always part of the game plan).

That's why I disagree with the OP, Frontier are more than aware of Elite's highs and lows. They've (rather intelligently) introduced the highend 'big picture' stuff and slowly filling in the blanks. Is it too slow for me? Hell yeah. But I think we're in good hands.

For the record, I'm the FIRST to grab to my pitchfork when I see something's wrong. But is Elite badly designed? No, it isn't. Are there mistakes? Yep, and Frontier are great at admitting this and balancing, sometimes they get it wrong (I'm still waiting on crime being punished properly) but they also open dialogues with the community and try to get it right.

 

[Tinman]

To be honest...brutally honest...they won't keep selling at this rate without improvements.

Yes, without improvements they won't keep selling at this rate.

.
.

I don't really see how that has anything to do with the game though considering it is in constant development...

And I can tell you another secret. Elite Dangerous will not make it even to season 5. Promised! Not, if they continue with their plan of mostly NPC-based content. It's just simply mega boring. The 'emergent' comes from player interaction, not from stupid AI content.

*meanwhile in the thread next door people predict absolute doom unless FD stop this constant focus on multiplayer content*

Back in the real world they will do a little bit of both...

Case in point:

2.1 Missions, Engineers, NPC mission givers, further improvements to minor faction interactions and so on...
2.3 Multicrew

The biggest problem FD has is that people seem to forget that ED has only been in development for 3 years...which is nothing in the grand scheme of things for a game of this nature, especially since everyone can feel the potential for what this could be further down the line. And people want all the things right this moment. They also want it for free...god forbid if they have to pay for expansions!!!

 

[JosiahD]

Mr. Braben and the flight engineers have proven their capability to make a flight sim in space. They have done a marvelous job. The numbers work; ships are of sufficient complexity that learning them is fun but not stressful. They are a joy to pilot, each with unique strengths and weaknesses and their very own feel.

Now though, these same precise, calculating engineers are trying to make a game. And it's failing. And I bet they neither realize that, nor would even understand why if they did. They plugged in numbers and got precise spawn rates, dependable RNG generation of POI and USS areas. Technically everything is working fine.

Technically.

But games, unlike flight sims, aren't purely technical affairs. Games require heart. Soul. Creative insight. Games require a mindset sometimes foreign to those who deal with precise engineering and the cold distance of Mathematica and precision calculation.

As I said elsewhere, not being a creative person is not a failure. Trying to lead a creative endeavor without yourself possessing any hint of creativity, is a failure.

Elite desperately needs the Engineers to just step away. Keep making ships and refining flight models. Sure.

But let someone else make the GAME going forward. Because right now you don't have a game. You have the best flight model in the history of space games, withering away inside a box full of RNG and disparate mechanics. No cohesion. No depth. And so it seems, no real end game for any single mechanic or set of them.

What will Exploration look like when its fully fleshed out? Or Trading? How about Wars and conflict between player factions? You probably don't even know. As far as you are concerned you plug in numbers and they work and all is well.

But its not well. The game...this loose grouping of independent mechanics totally without cohesion...its really not very good. At all.

It lacks depth. It lacks consistent rules. It lacks engaging pkay or emergent play. It lacks heart and soul.

It lacks creativity. So please, go get some.

Sorry, but I disagree.
.
Firstly, you try to daw a distinction between flight sims and games, suggesting this is a game and not the technical affair a flight sim is. Did you not stop to think that this is perhaps more flight sim than your definition of what makes a game a game, perhaps?
.
Secondly, to suggest DB and the guys and girls at Frontier are not creative? I think you're seriously on the wrong track there mate. Best think again.
.
Thirdly, you raise the point that there is no end game. Correct - there isn't and isn't supposed to be. If the traditional end game approach is what you're looking for, look elsewhere. Don't look for the typical MMO features here - simply 'live' in this galaxy because that's how it's meant to be played - no levelling, no raids, no end game. And for mine that's a good thing.
.
Lastly, Frontier have a roadmap, an iterative development timeline. That's right, iterative. They know the goals they're trying to achieve and doing well to get there, as the roadmap for this year in newsletter 105 indicates. But it was always true that this would not be to the taste of all gamers. Sounds to me like you're looking for something different to Elite.

 

[KamiruPL]

Proposal: Frontier made a game I dislike.

Conclusion: Ergo Frontier can't make a game.

Anyone else see the flaw in this argument?

Exactly. Rep for you Cmdr!

 

[Deleted member 38366]

These are interesting points, specifically because they don't say all that much at least in my eyes.

1: People can do what they want and blaze their own trails as it is, the problem seems to be "I am not earning as much money as x", you know what? do plumbers and secretaries earn the same? or a plumber and a trucker for that matter? If you are motivated only by reward then yeah, there's an issue, but its an issue caused by people, not the game or its mechanics.

2: what exactly do you mean by this? Elite is doing a lot of things not done before? including the planetary generation and landing, is definitely a first in a game on this scale.

Hm, you missed the point.
There are only two ways to blaze an actual Trail in ELITE Dangerous (I don't count the 3rd, as this effectively takes place outside the Game). In the entire Game. And one of which can and has been in the past wiped out by Frontier without any care (see Player Group placement/System flipping).
The rest is a rather weak illusion (an outright myth, long debunked), but if it works for you then it's all fine of course.

ELITE currently isn't doing a single thing that hasn't been in other Games for ages. Sometimes for decades. And in some case, these very old Games had stuff we don't even have on the roadmap yet.
Money (Credits) is that lowest-level denominator. To me (in the game) it has become utterly irrelevant, I'm long beyond Credits, simply because there's literally nothing I could use them for anymore (can't build a Planetary Outpost, which would be the next logical step). Plus, I don't mind others making as much in a week from stacking Smuggling Missions than I had to work 1000 hours for back in the old days. That's just the inflationary tendency we're seeing since quite a while. It's just the way it is and the newer Players benefit alot from it. All fine with me.

Disclaimer :
If one takes the 10-year project into full account, all this remains debatable of course.
Simply because all we're missing right now might fall in place just nicely in a few years.
Still.... we're playing and talking about today, not about 2020.

PS.
Planetary Landings were already done in FFE. A long long time ago. Not a first, not even a second. It's all old news, although of course appreciated in ELITE (despite the obvious lack of content on the Planets right now).
It's like a "Welcome back", although I'm still missing the ability to deploy Mining Rigs like I could back in FFE decades ago

In terms of underlying Game design, we have :
- unprecedented Scale
- but at the same time most game mechanics rely on >20 year old, 1-Dimensional basics. Very very oldschool. Has its merits, but has been superseeded by far more depth and consequential Options as seen in other, far older Games.
- ... and as it turns out again (like in V1.0), the massive Scale is also a burden - because it takes visionaries and alot of effort to fill it with enjoyable content of any kind. We're basically on Alpha-Level concerning that.

But as said, we're moving.
Probably one of the downsides of the Season-Model : the final verdict is only possible at the end of the year. The time inbetween we're already used to

 

[Blackcompany]

Sorry, but I disagree.
.
Firstly, you try to daw a distinction between flight sims and games, suggesting this is a game and not the technical affair a flight sim is. Did you not stop to think that this is perhaps more flight sim than your definition of what makes a game a game, perhaps?
.
Secondly, to suggest DB and the guys and girls at Frontier are not creative? I think you're seriously on the wrong track there mate. Best think again.
.
Thirdly, you raise the point that there is no end game. Correct - there isn't and isn't supposed to be. If the traditional end game approach is what you're looking for, look elsewhere. Don't look for the typical MMO features here - simply 'live' in this galaxy because that's how it's meant to be played - no levelling, no raids, no end game. And for mine that's a good thing.
.
Lastly, Frontier have a roadmap, an iterative development timeline. That's right, iterative. They know the goals they're trying to achieve and doing well to get there, as the roadmap for this year in newsletter 105 indicates. But it was always true that this would not be to the taste of all gamers. Sounds to me like you're looking for something different to Elite.

Firstly, I'm not drawing a distinction between a flight sim and a game. I am stating that a FLIGHT SIM is all that Elite is right now. That, and some technical demos of unfinished mechanics that might well be fleshed out into enjoyable interactions in the end. There is no real game here; more a proof of concept for combat, and another for trading; some poorly fleshed out smuggling mechanic that barely works. All connected - loosely - by a solid flight model.

Second, when I refer to creativity I am referring to something to do with all that flying. Something creative. Something that isn't a basic, text only holdover from 1984. Something this game has not yet done.

Thirdly...never said a word about "end game" anywhere. Not one. In fact what I am asking for is the antithesis of End Game as MMO Gamers define it. I despise Raids and all the other typical end game crap that turned me off from the MMO Genre years ago.

What I want is a living, breathing, dynamic universe. Like, you know, we were promised. Some finished mechanics would be a good start. Missions that work. Persistent stuff. Less RNG, more persistence and consequence. That's all.

 

[Toumal]

OP I kinda sorta agree with what you wrote - and I agree completely with your sentiment. ED is a marvelous technical achievement that's held back by a few design decisions and several non-decisions.

FD has picked up on the common vibe successfully several times though, and I hope they realize that they do have to step up their game beyond adding a face generator and some more menu screens. Multicrew is very welcome, but ED simply needs more, like in-flight missions and emergency transmissions, or capital ships that actually travel and do things - like in the trailer!

 

[SushiCW]

I've really had enough of insultingly condescending armchair game designers.

 

[Insomnia]

Horizons is a tech demo for 50 bucks.

 

[metatheurgist]

But is it any good?

Art is completely subjective, much like game appreciation.