The Star Citizen Thread v 4

[MaxLexandre]

All he needs to do now is tell us when the funding will stop and we can work out from there some sort of release date even if he can't.

That's not our call to make. Because the point is, the game, is not being affected by it on the aspect, of Scope Changes. That had stop at 65MIL, the last Stretch Goal. The money after that, is re-invested into the game, for some reason they hire new developers almost every week...

The money talk right now is nothing but some weird obsession of some people. As for your edit, that's ridiculous drama, the scope isn't changing, so why would it take more time? lol

Seriously though, where is this money coming from? Who even considers buying into SC at this point?

A lot of people, the game alpha you can even currently play, is not the abomination this thread makes it be.
Over that, there's even more people waiting to buy it, but many people have been buying SC recently, specially after 2.0.

Mostly because, well, they are people who do not care about Internet Drama, the game will always speak louder than anybody else. The game already spoke louder than the "Scam" and "Vaporware" drama of recent times.

 

[ianw]

That's not our call to make. Because the point is, the game, is not being affected by it on the aspect, of Scope Changes. That had stop at 65MIL, the last Stretch Goal. The money after that, is re-invested into the game, for some reason they hire new developers almost every week...

The money talk right now is nothing but some weird obsession of some people. As for your edit, that's ridiculous drama, the scope isn't changing, so why would it take more time? lol

He very clearly said you get one game for one price and another for another price - unless he pockets the money.

What don't you understand about that? You get "more game" for more money - more game takes more time - it really isn't a difficult concept Max.

Also you need to look up "Drama" I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Yup, if people can afford to back / crowdfund / pledge / whatever they want to call it: great!

Even if they can't afford it, it is none of my business. I don't hang around bookies chastising people for how they spend their money

I don't think there are more than a handful of Black Knights (Come back, I'll bite yer ankles!), on here. Personally I want them to release something and satisfy their fans. I have a giggle at the absurdity of it from time to time and am content that none of my money is at stake.

 

[Asp Explorer]

A lot of people, the game alpha you can even currently play, is not the abomination this thread makes it be.

It's not an abomination - and there are a couple of good fun bits to it.

However, it's obviously still extremely buggy, there has been absolutely heaps of "wasted" development, there's not much to actually "do", and performance rattles between "Oooh shiny nice!" and <facepalm>.

They obviously have a lot of work still to do, and I'm hopeful that they will really be able to deliver at least most of what they promised. Unfortunately, I think it will be a long, long time before delivery - mostly because their promises keep changing - and many of what were once firm development goals are now "meh - we'll see."

 

[MaxLexandre]

He very clearly said you get one game for one price and another for another price - unless he pockets the money.

Sorry but that is a silly statement.

Tell me, enlighten me, what is this scope that increases the more funding that they get you are talking about?

What is this scope that is supposedly always increasing with the more funding they get, that is delaying the game?

Sorry but... seriously. The drama recently was about them grabbing parts and promised features of the scope as Private Servers and Modding and pinned to post-launch... How can the scope be increasing?! How can it be taking more time with more money? Haven't you considered that the more money they get and invest into the game, the 100M game to deliver is about the amount of money they can and ARE spending on new hires almost every week?

--'

 

[ianw]

Sorry but that is a silly statement.

Tell me, enlighten me, what is this scope that increases the more funding that they get you are talking about?

What is this scope that is supposedly always increasing that is delaying the game?

Sorry but... seriously. The drama recently was about them grabbing parts and promised features of the scope as Private Servers and Modding and pinned to post-launch... How can the scope be increasing?! How can it be taking more time with more money? Haven't you considered that the more money they get and invest the game, the 100 game to deliver is about the amount of money they can and ARE spending on new hires almost every week?

--'

I'll try one more time with CR's own words.

"You don't know how much money you're going to get... unless you're wanna pocket the rest of the money, which isn't my thing at all... if you give me a hundred million dollars I'll make you a hundred million dollar game. If you give me ten million dollars I'll make you a ten million dollar game."

What do you think he means when he says he'll make one game for 100 mill and a different one for 10 mill?

 

[MaxLexandre]

I'll try one more time with CR's own words.

"You don't know how much money you're going to get... unless you're wanna pocket the rest of the money, which isn't my thing at all... if you give me a hundred million dollars I'll make you a hundred million dollar game. If you give me ten million dollars I'll make you a ten million dollar game."

What do you think he means when he says he'll make one game for 100 mill and a different one for 10 mill?

You just need to look at the facts and reality. The reality of the Star Citizen's scope, that already started to suffer adjustments and some features to downscale what is going to be delivered by release, what is going to be done post-release.

What i think it means? It's simply, he puts the money back on the game, i ask, why you do think CIG is hiring new developers almost every week?!
Is the money being used to increase the game's scope... Or being used to increase their team?


Because if it is to increase their scope, i'm sorry, but neither I, neither you certainly, can see where is the scope being increased to deliver that "100M" game.... It's quite the opposite. --'

 

[bitstorm]

MMOs refer as this, as the end-game. And i'm sorry but all i heard, read, and know about SC, is not about one endgame that is about owning the big capital ships and that's it.

It's simply not, this is why game activities exist, if my objective on the game is be a trader, why would i want one capital? I would want trading ships.

The discussion isn't about the Idris, it's about pay2win. If you wanted to be a trader you'd buy the biggest baddest trading ship, which may or may not be an Idris.

I'm not sure why you're focusing on the Idris. I now can't help wondering if it's because it is indeed a good example of a ship that would be very difficult to earn but players bought... with a click of a button. And you therefore want to exclude these extreme examples.

And this goes on with every player and the type of gameplay they want. As the players who backed SC for its FPS component, why would they want one capital? Wouldn't they prefer being part of a group or even a crew of a Idris that is meant to board or ships, or explore stations, on FPS combat? If a player wants his SC experience to be dog-fighting, the last thing they want is one capital ship, yet the best fighter around, that they could possibly dock on a capital ship, as part of something bigger.

I think you are completely missing the essence of SC as a whole.

But you're focusing on one ship not me. It's all applicable to any ship in game, or anything that can be purchased, all to various degrees, Idris is just one of the more expensive ships. I was talking about pay2win and pointing out the flaw in the argument saying there's no "win" therefore no "pay2win".

The core of your argument seems to be that MMOs don't have a final win state, but you completely ignore that they do have smaller win scenarios within. So..

1. Completing a trade run, how profitable was it?
2. Running a mission, were you successful?
3. Exploring. Nebulous win state here but, how much did you uncover and how long did it take you, did you reach previously unexplored areas?
4. Are you nearer to the "end game"?
5. Are you egaging in PvP (or PvE), which side won the engagement?
6. Are you fighting a war, was your side successful were your sides goals acheived?

With every one of these (with the exception of maybe a small portion of type (2)) you're advantaged by having a superior ship. (it's a spaceship game!)

Therefore you're able to pay cash to confer an advantage either against other players (PvP), or against the game (PvE) and therefore by extension (depending on the scenario) other players.

Which seems pretty clear cut pay2win pattern(?).

An MMO does not have an end state, therefore "win" is really "advantage" relative to where you would have been had you not spent the cash.

Pay2win in the context of an MMO, is NOT an overly-literal "pay money, game complete" as you say.

 

[swfanatic717]

I'll try one more time with CR's own words.

"You don't know how much money you're going to get... unless you're wanna pocket the rest of the money, which isn't my thing at all... if you give me a hundred million dollars I'll make you a hundred million dollar game. If you give me ten million dollars I'll make you a ten million dollar game."

What do you think he means when he says he'll make one game for 100 mill and a different one for 10 mill?

One of the original reasons I posted that quote and compared it to his Kickstarter figures was to point out that even on national television, CR is full of crap.

Clearly the scope of the project would stop growing once he actually had to start fulfilling his promises, and realized the enormity of the project at hand. There's no way it would grow to a size defined by some kind of geometric sequence.

That said, if he's still collecting millions of dollars a month but the scope of his game isn't further growing to the order of millions of dollars, then by definition he's either pocketing the money for himself, or has grossly understimated the costs needed to make his game, and actually needs the millions of dollars he's getting now to make the game he said he had enough money to make several months ago. I don't know which is worse.

 

[ianw]

You just need to look at the facts and reality. The reality of the Star Citizen's scope, that already started to suffer adjustments and some features to downscale what is going to be delivered by release, what is going to be done post-release.

What i think it means? It's simply, he puts the money back on the game, i ask, why you do think CIG is hiring new developers almost every week?!
Is the money being used to increase the game's scope... Or being used to increase their team?


Because if it is to increase their scope, i'm sorry, but neither I, neither you certainly, can see where is the scope being increased to deliver that "100M" game.... It's the contrary that we see happening. --'

Okay so they are downscaling what is going to be released which begs the question - why do they need more developers if they are downscaling what is going to be released?

And you still haven't answered the question - what did CR mean with the 100 million dollar game and the 10 million dollar game.

Or are you suggesting he just hires 10 times more developers to make the same game?

 

[MaxLexandre]

Pay2win in the context of an MMO, is NOT an overly-literal "pay money, game complete" as you say.

I'm not going to get into this already 3 years old discussion. It's known for a long time, since 2013, that you can put money on SC, via credits, only that fact, will allow one player, to have progression jumps, smaller or bigger, on the game MMO. Things are put as, everything needs to be earn-able with gameplay, in-game, no matter what, and that's the main pillar. Some people call this model p2w, other's don't. It's all inside the same box core.

This is really, one of those opinion based, pointless discussions, over facts we already all know and have different views on.

Okay so they are downscaling what is going to be released which begs the question - why do they need more developers if they are downscaling what is going to be released?

And you still haven't answered the question - what did CR mean with the 100 million dollar game and the 10 million dollar game.

Or are you suggesting he just hires 10 times more developers to make the same game?

Obviously, isn't that what he already did?! Isn't CIG already much bigger than what it was when SC was 10 Million Dollars Funded?!

That's the whole point, the same game is being delivered, the money being put on it, simply results on more and more hires. He already said on the past that the money they earn is put back on the game, the monthly funding defines how much people are working on it.

 

[ianw]

DUH, isn't that what he already did?! Isn't CIG already much bigger than what it was when SC was 10 Million Dollars Funded?!

That's the whole point, the same game is being delivered, the money being put on it, simply results on more and more hires. He already said on the past that the money they earn

Okay - so just to recap then.

It's the same game - with 10 times the original number of developers - but it's taking longer anyway.

 

[MaxLexandre]

Okay - so just to recap then.

It's the same game - with 10 times the original number of developers - but it's taking longer anyway.

Not 10 times bigger the number of developers. 100 MILLION DOLLARS worth of game developer wages to pay up. That's what a game budget is mostly spent on. I can get the quote where he clarified what's up with the money past-65M, aka, the monthly funding, where does it go, it was in one interview he gave to Polygon.

 

[swfanatic717]

Okay - so just to recap then.

It's the same game - with 10 times the original number of developers - but it's taking longer anyway.

Maybe CIG hired so many people that their overall efficiency actually decreased!

You can't exclude that possiblity or fault them for it. CR is creating jobs here and we should be thankful.

 

[ianw]

Not 10 times bigger the number of developers. 100 MILLION DOLLARS worth of game developer wages to pay up. That's what a game budget is mostly spent on.

Well last time I checked 10 x 10 = 100. Maybe on planet Max it doesn't.

Anyway I can see as usual it's pointless arguing with you so have the last word and we can leave it at that.

 

[bitstorm]

This constellation is having a danceoff!

[video=youtube;znckmg_k3KU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znckmg_k3KU[/video]

When I see stuff like this, the naive non-game developer in me wonders how the chuff this sort of bug is still the norm so far into the project.

 

[ianw]

That said, if he's still collecting millions of dollars a month but the scope of his game isn't further growing to the order of millions of dollars, then by definition he's either pocketing the money for himself, or has grossly understimated the costs needed to make his game, and actually needs the millions of dollars he's getting now to make the game he said he had enough money to make several months ago. I don't know which is worse.

He really is a liability - he shouldn't be speaking in public without a script - he just digs more holes each time.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Maybe CIG hired so many people that their overall efficiency actually decreased!

You can't exclude that possiblity or fault them for it. CR is creating jobs here and we should be thankful.

Well there is that. And word has it he's going to be spending a lot more time over here - I'll bet they're looking forward to that..

 

[Asp Explorer]

When I see stuff like this, the naive non-game developer in me wonders how the chuff this sort of bug is still the norm so far into the project.

Now Bitstorm my friend, you have to understand. It's a physics model so good, it's perceived as bad.

 

[bitstorm]

I'm not going to get into this already 3 years old discussion. It's known for a long time, since 2013, that you can put money on SC, via credits, only that fact, will allow one player, to have progression jumps, smaller or bigger, on the game MMO. Things are put as, everything needs to be earn-able with gameplay, in-game, no matter what, and that's the main pillar. Some people call this model p2w, other's don't. It's all inside the same box core.

This is really, one of those opinion based, pointless discussions, over facts we already all know and have different views on.

I'm talking about it because you recently (not 3 years ago!) posted some points about why you thought it was not pay to win.

I am addressing your points and showing why it is pay to win.

If I was addressing an argument you posted 3 years ago fair enough, but you posted it a few days ago.

I don't think this is opinion-based as you say. I think there are a pretty clear arguments as to how games without a defined end state can still be pay to win, and I think SC meets those criteria.

I understand that some backers may have come to terms and accepted this a long time ago (you say it's 3 years), and so may take the view that whether SC is pay to win or not is essentially irrelevant, it is how it is. But in all honesty I think the notion of pay to win within SC is a valid topic, a large number of "gamers" are vehemently anti-pay to win and feel implementing it negatively affects a game. What's more CIG selling assets has been a huge part of their funding model and as such will certainly factor into CIG's/SC's future one one way or another.

I should probably also add CIG's selling of assets at such prices is completely unprecedented, they are pioneering in this regard. Other publishers (unfortunately) will be looking on and taking notes.

So anyway, what I'm trying to say is I think the topic is totally relevant despite the decision being made 3 years ago!

 

[MaxLexandre]

Well last time I checked 10 x 10 = 100. Maybe on planet Max it doesn't.

Anyway I can see as usual it's pointless arguing with you so have the last word and we can leave it at that.

Now you're just trolling, but whatever.

300 Developers, New Studios, this even over the end of Stretch Goals, as the Germany Studio setup during 2015 is one PERFECT example of where the money past 65M gone, that is part of that... 100M game.