Open letter to Frontier

[Jockey79]

Full multiplayer ?
Not sure who has the fact straight or not..

Regarding lying, do you want me to take the different dev update and what they were saying we would have and what we had ?

Look it up and provide evidence to back your claim up.

I don't have time to go all history but I think it is dishonest from your side to say the contrary.
I know it is your role so i understand but nevertheless, lots of things have been said/promise and we never saw it.

Again - back your claims up - otherwise it's just hot air from your side. And are you calling me a liar?

That went bad quickly. All I want is you to prove your assertation.

Ok, let me help....

From the Kickstarter;
*And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...*
*you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends
*Play it your way*
*Your reputation is affected by your personal choices. Play the game your way: dangerous pirate, famous explorer or notorious assassin - the choice is yours to make. Take on missions and affect the world around you, alone or with your friends.*
*You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) *
*We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will,*

Some Dev comments from the Kickstarter;

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1681441
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1705397
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1705551

The part about it being as much a MMO as CoD is already in your Wall of Text, the second KS post. His exact words were "I don't see this as an MMO in the traditional sense, unless you think of Call of Duty as an MMO."

About he not wanting to call it a MMO early on, well, besides that very post hinting at it, and the Kickstart page not using that term even once, I remember hearing it in old video interviews from the KS era. The "I don't see it as an MMO in the traditional sense" line came out quite a few times before fans managed to finally convince DB that Elite Dangerous, as pitched, would qualify as an actual MMO.

There are other interesting things to find in those old interviews. For example, just from the Gary Whitta interview with David Braben and Chris Roberts, you have:
(Part 1) (Part 2) (Part 3) (Part 4)

As reference for the following quote, here is Chris Roberts speaking about the Star Citizen equivalent of this thread (part 3, 5:30):
"And the key is kind of what David alluded to, which I think it's a debate that David has with his community and it's a debate I have with my community because there is definitely this whole sort of PvP and PvE sort of factions that go on and they're all pretty rabid. And so I think, and I think David also believes that you can sort of create a game that can cater to both sets of players and it will be okay. But it certainly is, that is, I would say if I were going to give you a touchpaper to set up a fight with your community that's the one to do it."

The immediate follow up by DB about PvE groups (part 3, 6:01):
"Well, the discussions have come up already. We have this concept of groups where you can join a group which doesn't allow or does allow it on the user choice."

Or this about the kind of game DB would want to play (part 3, 7:09):
"You know, so what I would I want from a game? I want to be able to play a great game without being griefed by teenagers, but having said that I do want there to be a feeling of risk out there."

Also this about what player interaction in ED was supposed to be about (part 3, 2:06):
"And so, I don’t mean necessarily every ship should be a player because then you get into a frame of mind that you can’t kill anything without really upsetting someone. I mean with Elite: Dangerous it’s still…a lot of the ships you encounter won’t be real players but we will call out, of the ships that you meet, who is a real player. We have a way of distinguishing them within the game. They’re actually part of this group of pilots that you’re part of and it will call out, above them say. Essentially what it means is “this is a real player,” but in the game fabric: “so this is a group who a member of the same organization as you.” We…you know, in other words we, we don’t want this game to be all about player vs. player kills, but the point is it encourages a lot of cooperation. And, it will be possible to do player vs. player kills if that’s what people want to do. "

From the forum archives;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited)
(All by a Lead Designer)

Also DB on Multiplayer and Grouping and Single (01:00 - 02:01) Plus how the Galaxy will evolve over time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JY...kuz6s&index=18
"DB explicitly said that solo players would be able to do community goals, though back then they weren't called that. Dev Diary Video #2, at the 4:10 mark."

DB on "Griefing" and "Griefers"
(Listen out for the part where FD can move them in to a private group of just each other)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5hqjxmf4M

Rededit Topic on "unusual event for players to come against players" (Twitch Video now removed, YT link for it below)
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangero...ayers_to_come/

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJzizYUEF9c )

Also, MMO does not mean "social" (It means lots of people connected)

Wikipedia;
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.

Oxford English Dictionary (Online);
An online video game which can be played by a very large number of people simultaneously .

The Steam Store page;

Please note, "Single Player" and "Multiplayer" with "Co-op".
So not just an "MMO"


Dev comments;

Will at any time solo and private group play be separated into a different universe/database from open play? It's kind of cheap that you can be safe from many things in solo, like player blockades and so on, and still affect the same universe.

No.

Michael

Thanks for that clarity Michael.

Are you in a position to confirm that group switching between the three game modes will remain as a feature of the game?

We're not planning on changing that.

Michael

We are supporting multiplayer and the solo experience. Community Goals are carrying on too.

E3 2015 Interview (17th June 2015);

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/0...-david-braben/

View attachment 98946

PowerPlay AMA related links regarding Modes and Powerplay;

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106524&page=27&p=1663438#post1663438
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140032&page=22&p=2145448&viewfull=1#post2145448
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140032&page=25&p=2145528&viewfull=1#post2145528

The overall thread topic (+ How XB1 fits);

On that last point, Producer Ben Dowie reiterated that Xbox One and PC players won’t be playing head-to-head—although they’ll be playing in the same simulated universe, they’ll never encounter each other in space, likely because Microsoft’s Xbox patch cycle adds complexity to Frontier’s game update procedure. This means that PC players and Xbox players will often wind up on different clients, which means no head-to-head play. To that end, anticipated PC-centric features will likely land on PC first.

And regarding the game design;

I pointed out that there’s frequent contention online about the “right” way to play, be it casual or hard-core, and Braben agreed. “But there shouldn’t be a ‘right’ way,” he said. “You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play. And people have come up with lots of suggestions, some of them very constructive and sensible, and we do listen, and people hopefully have seen that we’ve changed things and adjusted things, but not in a way—we hope!—to upset people. We’re doing it to make the game better!”

To highlight something from that above quote;

“You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play."

Here is a quote from Zac Antonaci for the "game is dying" pro-claimers.
Dated 10th July 2015;

They need to be.


Look at the current posts on the subreddit and the forum. Your core player base is simply stopping playing. You might be selling copies but if your core community is splitting or stopping playing then you have a problem.

Hey Fred,


I wanted to reply to this honestly if I may.


I'm not going to be talking about active player numbers explicitally but I can tell you without question that the game has a very healthy and thriving community who enjoys hours upon hours of Elite. You really don't need to worry on that point.


<snip>


Zac

And a nice, clear, concise comment from Michael Brookes regarding the modes;

From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael

Dev Update 6th August 2015 (https://community.elitedangerous.com/node/248);

What we are doing is new in many ways, both technically and in terms of how we are realizing our long term ambitions for Elite Dangerous. As we evolve the game we are trying to give the best value we can to both existing and new players, for the long term benefit of everyone. That’s why we’ve worked hard to keep backwards compatibility for the Elite Dangerous: Horizons season, and are continuing to release updates for ‘season one’ players. Everyone will continue to fly in the same galaxy, and be impacted by, participate in and help to drive the same events.

(I added the bold / underline in the quote to highlight the last line)


Reddit AMA from X-Box One launch, in relation to the Back Ground Simulation and Modes;
https://np.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/3nlmdg/its_frontier_developments_developers_of_elite/

^^ So PC/Mac and X-Box One impact the same live simulation, but cannot actually play together or see each other.

^^ X-Box One also has "Solo Mode" and is recommended by FD Devs for when you do not want to play with other people.

Horizons Live Stream;
(RE: Question about ED being an MMO)

DB was asked a question "Is Elite and MMORPG?" in the LiveStream tonight.

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;RdP1DmRYco8]https://youtu.be/RdP1DmRYco8[/video]

He answered it like this:

19:42
"Well I think the problem is this: Different people mean different things by saying MMOs, you know. I think we're massive (19:53) by most measures, in terms of we have a lot of people playing, all at the same time. We have instancing, but then you know so does every other or every MMO out there. (20:10) The case, you know, you look at the way Warcraft does it. Now the case is (20:15) where do you set the number. So currently it's you know around 32 players in a session plus NPCs and all that sort of thing. (20:23) You know we could go higher if it weren't for the NPCs, we could go higher if people had perfect network connections. You know if we had a LAN we could go way higher. You know this is the point. (20:31) And it's a case of balancing the experience and also how much data you have to exchange. You know it's a quality of the experience that I expect over time we will increase it.

"But are we an MMO? I think we are by all measures."

Ed speaks and then David adds:

"It's not an RPG in a sense that (21:09) you increase your personal stats but a lot of people play it as a role playing game. I think if that's what you want it to be then so it is I suppose. I don't think it really matters. Someone said 'That's a silly question. Such a waste of time.' Well there you go."

Solo / Group / Open Mega Threads post counts.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=90583 (1st)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=145309 (2nd)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=169599 (3rd)​

 

[Zieman]

lol - to "do an Ian", Evidence or it didn't happen

Here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/description#project_faq_43734

 

[Huros]

@ jockey

great post, scanned it but TLR.

 

[Ari Ben Zayn]

play solo , its like offline.

People do that and then certain PVP groups are drowning in tears because unreachable solo players undermine their system. So much for "offline". :')

 

[Jockey79]

@ jockey

great post, scanned it but TLR.

Ty, has grown over the past 14 months - just a little

 

[Deareim]

Thank you Jockey for your post.
I will read it later on !

 

[Huros]

Here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/description#project_faq_43734

Well done


Can we focus on the real issue now? - FDev promoted a Terrorist Gaming Faction and did not provide the correct well rounded Criminal Justice System nor player group tools to deal with them appropriately.

As for Griefing/Terrorist Attacks, will they be moved to a shadow server as per the previous promised? - see Jockeys Wall of Evidence

 

[Lianachan]

If you wish to make accusations of lying, then be prepared to have to provide hard evidence of it.

Maybe calling it "lying" is over egging it, but you know full well that FD did not deliver everything they stated they were originally wanting to in KS. There was a major stushie about particular missed promises that even made the national press. You cannot possibly not know this.

 

[Huros]

jockey,

I am doing something similar with great ideas for Crime and Justice, it all ties together with this situation. I need to digest the "official thinking" so will blog through your post properly

 

[Lianachan]

play solo , its like offline. its also 2016. you know this forum is online?

Solo is online. That's the exact opposite of offline.

 

[Steve50]

Get your facts straight. The Kickstarter was promoting a multiplayer game from DAY 1.

If you wish to make accusations of lying, then be prepared to have to provide hard evidence of it.

Yes it was planned as a multiplayer game from the off ..however.. we kickstarters were promised several times (by David himself on one occasion) that there would be a single player offline mode. (which got pulled at the last moment for DRM reasons)

 

[Jockey79]

..see Jockeys Wall of Evidence

We called it the "Wall of Information" in the S.O.G. threads, but I think I like this name better

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jockey,

I am doing something similar with great ideas for Crime and Justice, it all ties together with this situation. I need to digest the "official thinking" so will blog through your post properly

cool, if you need any help or links for the quotes pm me.

I know quoting the quote will lose half the info, so it can be a pain to transfer the info

 

[DHMeyer]

By the way, am I the only one expecting a huge ragestorm coming from Mobius when the new AI hits? I get the impression that the average Mobius player might be more succeptible to 'npc-griefing' than Open players, as players in Open have to be more alert in general. Right now the anger of Mobius players is at PvP cmdrs but thats only because the AI doesnt pose much of a threat. Once AI learns to boost properly and 'submit and boost' isn't a fix-all for every pve situation things might get ugly over there, and they may have to learn the basics every Open cmdr already has to know. Interesting question: once AI becomes (close to) as dangerous as human players, how many of the Mobius guys who do not ragequit will chose to stay in Mobius? After all, most of the 'griefer-anxiety' is greatly mitigated by some basic skills, and once you've learned them Open isnt nearly as scary as some make it out to be...

You seem to believe that people who want to play in PVE environment are doing so because they lack the skill to confront PVP environment... Sorry, but this is just unsubstantiated and completely illogical claim. The reason why people choose PVE over PVP is not because they are not able to fight human opponents, but because they do not want to. PVP gameplay does not require some sort of mystical superpower and the skill set is not really much different from what is required for PVE gameplay. When it comes to combat, it is in both cases about aiming accurately and avoiding getting damage, with the only difference being that some of the human commanders might be smarter than the AI ones or react quicker to changing conditions. But some people might have chosen to not develop their combat skills and this is their choice. Combat is just one of the gameplay elements, and just like some people might not enjoy trading, mining or exploration, some people might not enjoy the combat. Nobody forces combatants to do the mining or trading, but non-combatants do not have such a freedom of choice, especially in PVP environment.

It's like saying that people, who go to a coffee shop, should all like latte and never choose any other drinks. Just because.

 

[Roybe]

It's so sad that everyone is still trying to find some non-existent rule that we broke.

It isn't going to happen. They've made their statement, get over it.

Maybe instead of crying about it actually do something about it. Form a wing, come find us in open, kill us, put a bounty on us, use the in-game resources.

All you're doing is making yourselves look like a bunch of whining children.

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Not that any of us have 2nd and 3rd accounts... right?

LOL! Keep on going guys! You're winning!

AGAIN!

 

[excalibus]

it's interesting reading through some of the 'rules'

7.3 Communication and interaction with other users
7.3.1 The Game and/or Online Features may allow communications between users by means including but not limited to text and voice. When using such features you must use common sense and good manners, your behaviour, conduct and communications must be considerate to other users and you must not be directly or indirectly offensive, threatening, harassing or bullying to others or violate any applicable laws including but not limited to anti-discrimination legislation based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

7.3.2 Frontier reserves the right, but not the obligation, to record, monitor and retain all or some of the communications described in clause 7.3.1 in order to safeguard other users and our community. You acknowledge that Frontier shall have the right, but not the obligation, to pre-screen, refuse, move or remove any content available through the Game or the Online Features, including, but not limited to, content that violates any law or this EULA, the Privacy Policy, or any other applicable legal or contractual obligation.

7.3.3 By accepting these terms and conditions you hereby agree that any information collected as described in Clause 7.3.2 that is deemed to be illegal or to contravene the rights of Frontier, our employees, customers, or any other individual during Use of the Game or the Online Features may be reported to the police or other appropriate authorities, and; ii) agree to be bound by the Community Codes of Conduct for the Game, the latest version of which may be viewed here.

You agree to not:

Be insulting to any person via obscene, offensive, hateful or inflammatory comments via the in-game text or voice communications.
Use sexually explicit or harmful language including the use of misspelled or punctuated words to insinuate, represent any of the above - also known as "masked swearing".
Be abusive to other players based on race, sex, religion, nationality, disability, sexual orientation, age or other criteria that offends other users.
​

I would personally feel that if the player agreed to the groups terms during the application process of joining mobius then they actually entered into a contractual obligation which they then broke...

Furthermore using means NOT LIMITED TO TEXT OR VOICE the SDC members then harrassaed and indeed bullied and threatened Mobius members either directly or indirectly through their actions of engaging in combat with total disregard of the groups 'agreed' rules about where and when PVP combat can occur in the group.

I would be surprised if the Mobius members who were attacked were indeed not left feeling offended by the SDC members actions.

So perhaps FD can shed some light on why they claim no rules where broken when from my reading of just the in game conduct aspects of the EULA, rules where broken (from my perspective)

​

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

it's interesting reading through some of the 'rules'






I would personally feel that if the player agreed to the groups terms during the application process of joining mobius then they actually entered into a contractual obligation which they then broke...

Furthermore using means NOT LIMITED TO TEXT OR VOICE the SDC members then harrassaed and indeed bullied and threatened Mobius members either directly or indirectly through their actions of engaging in combat with total disregard of the groups 'agreed' rules about where and when PVP combat can occur in the group.

I would be surprised if the Mobius members who were attacked were indeed not left feeling offended by the SDC members actions.

So perhaps FD can shed some light on why they claim no rules where broken when from my reading of just the in game conduct aspects of the EULA, rules where broken (from my perspective)

​

Indeed I imagine they may need therapy to get over it. Perhaps they should sue Möbius for failing to provide a safe environment for them to game in. Imagine the abject horror of been killed once in an online game, its the stuff of man baby nightmares.

 

[Huros]

it's interesting reading through some of the 'rules'






I would personally feel that if the player agreed to the groups terms during the application process of joining mobius then they actually entered into a contractual obligation which they then broke...

Furthermore using means NOT LIMITED TO TEXT OR VOICE the SDC members then harrassaed and indeed bullied and threatened Mobius members either directly or indirectly through their actions of engaging in combat with total disregard of the groups 'agreed' rules about where and when PVP combat can occur in the group.

I would be surprised if the Mobius members who were attacked were indeed not left feeling offended by the SDC members actions.

So perhaps FD can shed some light on why they claim no rules where broken when from my reading of just the in game conduct aspects of the EULA, rules where broken (from my perspective)

​

Harassment is a criminal action. The victims would be well within their rights under uk law to make a complaint to the police.

I wonder is zac et al have considered this. I wonder if as we move to more online world we will hear of this more often.

I also wonder if the victims did make a complaint how high FDev would offer to jump. ... Sometimes with certain crimes like harassment the victim is not the one who absolutely needs to make the complaint..... Others may do so. The whole episode is very disturbing to many. Maybe SDC and FDev should rethink how they proceed before someone does file a complaint and Cambridge police force are obliged to start rummaging through their servers for evidence.

 

[Lianachan]

These threads are great for populating the ol' ignore list.

 

[excalibus]

Indeed I imagine they may need therapy to get over it. Perhaps they should sue Möbius for failing to provide a safe environment for them to game in. Imagine the abject horror of been killed once in an online game, its the stuff of man baby nightmares.

they might... you might... i might after having to read this thread...

I would hazard a guess that if this was in 'merica lawyers would already be contacting the mobius members for a class action... LOL

 

[Huros]

i'll just leave this here... is Griefing harassment? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40

IDK :/