Simple Fix to Combat Logging

[CYB34]

Capsuleer Log-Off Timer (PC)
Cause: Combat with another capsuleer
Consequence: Ship will remain in space after player logs off until the timer expires.
Initial Duration: 15:00 Minute

Non-Capsuleer Log-Off Timer (NPC)
Cause: Combat with Non Capsuleer
Consequence: Ship will remain in space after player logs off until the timer expires.
Initial Duration: 5:00 Minutes

Weapon Timer (for misfires, ramming etc.)
Cause: Aggression against another Capsuleer
Consequence: Unable to dock or use stargates
Initial Duration: 1:00 Minute

These are not penalties. They are common sense in EVE.
It should be you taking every risk when undocking your ship, not me thinking "he might disconnect or combat log, I better prepare myself to get absolutely nothing".

 

[zynaps]

There's no simple fix because ED is not a server authoritative game. The server trusts that the client doing the log off did so for a good reason, but there's no way for the server to tell if it was legitimate or not. The server doesn't necessarily know you're even engaged in combat to begin with. When your ship is destroyed, guess who notifies the server of this fact? Yes that's right, your client does. It's entirely possible to hack ED client side to never report ship destruction. In ED all responsibilities has been delegated to the client side of things. There's a reason they have not fixed it yet; they would have to rewrite the entire client-server architecture.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

... First off, it does hurt others, specifically the person you logged on directly is effected, and it can also have impacts on the BGS depending on the situation. ...

Lol, no. Pretty far fetched. "It hurts others" - it does NOTHING like it. A minute game time wasted is all - a minor "hurt" compared to the "hurt" of not playing what I want to play.

 

[CYB34]

There's no simple fix because ED is not a server authoritative game. The server trusts that the client doing the log off did so for a good reason, but there's no way for the server to tell if it was legitimate or not. The server doesn't necessarily know you're even engaged in combat to begin with. When your ship is destroyed, guess who notifies the server of this fact? Yes that's right, your client does. It's entirely possible to hack ED client side to never report ship destruction. In ED all responsibilities has been delegated to the client side of things. There's a reason they have not fixed it yet; they would have to rewrite the entire client-server architecture.

The logoff timer is client side.
The game can very well tell if you're attacking a PC or an NPC, and apply a preset timer to send it to the server.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

If Frontier can't manage or fix the combat logging situation, the game need to change its name: Elite Dangerous.
Because currently the combat logging is kind of accepted by a waste majority of players as a trivial offence.

It is not just about the griefers, but for sure once a player accept this as a last resort, he will do it in PvP as well in PvE.
And then this game is definitly not dangerous anymore - for nobody.

...but there's no way for the server to tell if it was legitimate or not. .

What are the chances that you are in combat, lost your shields, your hull is getting below 30% and suddently you have internet connection problem?
I did saw this only once in a PvP combat - during CMDR Fanatics (The Code) live Twitch stream. He immediately came back online, apologized and offered to be killed.
This was very honorable and impressive! Big kudos to him!

 

[KaizoMK]

The logoff timer is client side.
The game can very well tell if you're attacking a PC or an NPC, and apply a preset timer to send it to the server.

Then FD would have to maintain your information on a server for a set period of time. Is that something they can manage? I can't say, but maybe. It'd be a good solution.

You mean just PC though. Who cares if you combat log in solo, really? I think someone used the term micropenis earlier...

Frankly, this is a good idea that follows the notion of punishing the player via gameplay.

I'd rather see that if you as a player disconnect during combat, your cargo is automatically dropped and then you are charged for any bounties you've incurred. This would reward pirates and bounty hunters and punish their victims, while giving psychos the finger. While it'd be a good implementation for solo as well, it'd be potentially crippling for those with shoddy connections, and again, who cares?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Its a flaw in the P2P system that you're just going to have to accept.

• P2S - avatar can be held in game
• P2P - I can force you out my instance quite easily and there's nothing you can do about it, nor prove I did anything.

(FD doesn't have control over the internet, only their own servers)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If Frontier can't manage or fix the combat logging situation, the game need to change its name: Elite Dangerous.
Because currently the combat logging is kind of accepted by a waste majority of players as a trivial offence.

It is not just about the griefers, but for sure once a player accept this as a last resort, he will do it in PvP as well in PvE.
And then this game is definitly not dangerous anymore - for nobody.


What are the chances that you are in combat, lost your shields, your hull is getting below 30% and suddently you have internet connection problem?
I did saw this only once in a PvP combat - during CMDR Fanatics (The Code) live Twitch stream. He immediately came back online, apologized and offered to be killed.
This was very honorable and impressive! Big kudos to him!

Maybe not for you. I find the game quite dangerous. Was in a Haz RES a couple of months back, had a very dangerous fight with an Elite FAS. And i wouldn't dream of taking on a wing of 13 Sidewinders.

Danger doesn't equate PvP. For some people, who are apparently so awesome that NPCs pose no threat, then ok, PvP is the only challenge for them. Just keep in mind, for many of us, we get enough danger from the NPCs.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

Maybe not for you. I find the game quite dangerous. Was in a Haz RES a couple of months back, had a very dangerous fight with an Elite FAS. And i wouldn't dream of taking on a wing of 13 Sidewinders.

Danger doesn't equate PvP. For some people, who are apparently so awesome that NPCs pose no threat, then ok, PvP is the only challenge for them. Just keep in mind, for many of us, we get enough danger from the NPCs.

The important part of the fight against NPC and players is to know your timing, when to exit the fight. Also i would never suceed to win against 13 sidewinders - don't remember to succeed the "gold trap" once. But my point was that if everybody silently agrees to pull the plug once it gets hot - the game would lose ab big part of it's excitement.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

The important part of the fight against NPC and players is to know your timing, when to exit the fight. Also i would never suceed to win against 13 sidewinders - don't remember to succeed the "gold trap" once. But my point was that if everybody silently agrees to pull the plug once it gets hot - the game would lose ab big part of it's excitement.

Your point is moot though - excitement is subjective. Besides, some are going to pull the plug regardless and there's nothing FD can do to stop it - their best bet (which they say they are donig) is to automatically note who does it and when, then implement sanctions against them.

Also, pet hate of mine, ED's name has nothing to do with risk

 

[CYB34]

Its a flaw in the P2P system that you're just going to have to accept.

• P2S - avatar can be held in game
• P2P - I can force you out my instance quite easily and there's nothing you can do about it, nor prove I did anything.

(FD doesn't have control over the internet, only their own servers)

Isn't the game save, matchmaking and logs server-side?

 

[Sapient6]

Then FD would have to maintain your information on a server for a set period of time.

It would have to host a client for every lost connection (including npcs local to that session).

And what if both commanders are still connected, they just can't communicate with eachother? Now the server has to host two client sessions for the commanders that can't see eachother, and allow both commanders to blow their stationary opponents up, and then (presumably) send both commanders to an insurance rebuy screen once the hosted client sessions are done. That certainly make everyone happy.

What will make everyone even more happy is that the server will need to do this for every case of connection issues. That wouldn't make the game completely unplayable during peak times, I'm sure.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If Frontier can't manage or fix the combat logging situation, the game need to change its name: Elite Dangerous.

I keep waiting for the other half of this argument to crop up from the same people: people without elite rank shouldn't be allowed to play because this is Elite​ Dangerous.

 

[KaizoMK]

It would have to host a client for every lost connection (including npcs local to that session).

And what if both commanders are still connected, they just can't communicate with eachother? Now the server has to host two client sessions for the commanders that can't see eachother, and allow both commanders to blow their stationary opponents up, and then (presumably) send both commanders to an insurance rebuy screen once the hosted client sessions are done. That certainly make everyone happy.

What will make everyone even more happy is that the server will need to do this for every case of connection issues. That wouldn't make the game completely unplayable during peak times, I'm sure.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



I keep waiting for the other half of this argument to crop up from the same people: people without elite rank shouldn't be allowed to play because this is Elite​ Dangerous.

Have rep, your post was overall great.

I always forget you can merely sever the connection between another CMDR and not ED. But in that case, we could just not enforce that penalty. It'd be contingent on disconnecting from the client, not from another player. We'd need a better solution for the latter, but what can you really do about that?

 

[DHMeyer]

This is my understanding of the situation too. Combat logging (or something similar) happens in most if not all multiplayer games to some extent, but judging by the comments on this forum it seems to be a particular problem in ED - and we need to ask why. At a fundamental level, I have to suggest that it is a symptom of a general lack of respect between players. I for one wouldn't consider such actions as remotely appropriate in other games I've played - and not because of possible penalties but because I actually care about how other players see me. Clearly at least part of the blame for this lies with a poorly-designed game mechanic which encourages random unevenly-balanced encounters between players who may never meet again, but I can't help feeling that the attitudes expressed by some open 'regulars' on this forum have also played a part. I'll not provide specific examples (it would be unfair to cherry-pick, and I see no reason to assume that those commenting are by any means to worst offenders), but when one sees statements to the effect that any newcomer getting 'ganked' or harassed in open deserves what they get for playing there in the first place, it isn't difficult to come to the conclusion that respect - and consideration - is lacking. Maybe FD can come up with something to deal with the worst offenders, but ultimately if the open player base wants a better environment - one where people don't combat-log out of self-respect, and respect for others (as I've seen in other games) - they need to look at broader behavioural issues, rather than venting yet again on the same subject while ignoring the root causes.

In most MMOs if you loose connection or log out in combat situation, your character stays online for a some time. They may die, they may survive, this depending on the game and circumstances. But in most games death penalty is not really very harsh. You may lose some XP, get your armor damaged etc. but in general you respawn in some safe location without the whole thing having much of an impact on you. It can be a bit unpleasant, but in general you're back at where you were a few minutes before in terms of your ingame progress. You won't have to grind for hours to get back where you were.
In ED death is much harsher. Especially for a trader, flying one of the big freighters. If you loose Type 9 with cargo, it can really hit you. Yes, usually you will have enough money for insurance and new cargo, but every loss means you will have to spend another hour, or two or three just to rebuild what you've lost. And there is a significant chance you won't survive your next hostile encounter either. So it can become not only a tedious activity for a game you're supposed to enjoy, but also fairly pointless. I have no doubt there are some people who enjoy trading and it's their thing, but in most cases trading is just a way of making credits for other purposes, so each death in space forces you to grind more.

I was extremely lucky when flying my Type 7 and somehow I didn't get interdicted by pirates for some 60 milion credits, mostly due to doing a short run between fairly secure systems. Loosing that ship even once would mean a loss of about 5-6 mil and in that run I was making about 2mil per hour. So the possibility of getting interdicted was really dreadful. Those ships are designed to be either a prey for pirates or to fly in convoys. The problem is: there is really no reliable way to fly them in convoys. You could get some players in fighter ships to accompany you from time to time, but finding somebody who will tag along your space cow day in / day out isn't really an option. I only hope that Frontier finally adds NPC wings, because otherwise the only solution available is to switch to some warship (which I did as soon as I could).
So I am not surprised if traders do log out when it gets hot. Can't really blame them. I don't usually play in Open, but if I were flying a Type 7 full of cargo in Open, the only thing that could prevent me from combat logging would be roleplaying.

I don't think combat logging has anything to do with the crime and punishment system in Elite. Who cares if the pirate gets high bounty on their head or if they are immediately hunted down when you've just lost 20 million? The only things that could be an incentive for players not to combat log is either to survive each hostile encounter, so no PVP mode, or to have more options to protect themselves effectively (other than buying a warship). You can't really enforce punishment for combat logging (and Frontier won't do that, combat logging is a relatively unimportant issue, as in: it's hard to blame them for that), so if there is no stick they can use, they better think about some carrot and convince more players to stay online when in combat, even when loosing.

 

[GluttonyFang]

The same is true for people who go to open knowing that they'll encounter combat loggers and then complain on the forums. The only difference is that combat logging is considered an exploit, but it still sounds like "mommy, they don't want to play with me" in my opinion.

Your personal opinion on combat logging doesn't trump the developer's perspective, the one in the wrong here is the crime and punishment system and the combat loggers. Combat loggers are people that think they can just shove the chessboard off the table whenever the game doesn't go in said people's favor, and we classify this type of people as those inept in adapting to society and upholding basic respect for themselves and others, it's anti-social in its very root.

Mobius isn't a solution. It lacks official support and has a member cap. 95% of all Elite players don't know that Mobius exists because they don't visit the forum. They most likely don't even know that they are combat logging.

Mobius recently received official support and attention in removing Cmdr on an account scale instead of a Cmdr scale to deal with the SDC, you either ignored this intentionally or you don't pay attention to the status quo. In what contemporary online game do you find combat logging ever appropriate, common sense doesn't fail just because it's a space sim. There is no official support for PvE nor PvP, there is official support for Elite: Dangerous but both sides seem to be very happy to strong-arm FD and see it as appropriate. Mobius is a great example of people making the game work in their favor in a legitimate fashion through covenant.

You'll agree with me that the same is true for people going sidey clubbing in the starter systems. I think we should distinguish between someone who isn't interested in PvP and has no time for beeing someones toy and someone who attacks others and leaves the game as soon as he realises that he is going to lose. You may argue that both are using an exploit but there is still a difference in morality.

That is a problem of crime and punishment, which the developers are already paying attention to. Being in Open equates the demand for respect for the mode and other players (as long as there is no cheating) regardless of what unfair disadvantage one is at. Wanting only a portion of the features in Open and quitting the moment the wind doesn't blow one's way is childish.

Many online games don't have the problem with combat logging because the players don't care if someone leaves the game. That's true for most FPS games where everybody can join and leave as they want and sport games where you'll get an automatic win if someone leaves the game. It's annoying when your opponent leaves because in the end you want to play the game against someone but you still get rewarded.

If a ship drops all its cargo/50% of the cargo when it combat logs, you will not ever see say another word about combat logging.

I still think that the best short term solution would be to go the same way like DayZ/Minecraft by handling the problem ourselves. We just need to create a private group with a PvP code of honor - everyone who doesn't play by the rules gets kicked:

Open: PvP / combat logging
Mobius: No PvP / no combat logging
Suibom: PvP / no combat logging
Solo: No PvP / no combat logging

While I agree that this doesn't solve the problem of combat logging in open and FDEV should continue to work on a solution it would at least provide a solution for those who are complaining continuously.

Tell me what sane trader is going to play on a private PvP server for the sole purpose of being a target for pirates, tell me.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Lol, no. Pretty far fetched. "It hurts others" - it does NOTHING like it. A minute game time wasted is all - a minor "hurt" compared to the "hurt" of not playing what I want to play.

I think you'll retract that statement when:

BH:

-Target ships disappear 75% of the time at 25% hull or 25% PP

Trading:

-Cargo hold loses all its content upon landing at the target station 75% of the time

Exploration:

-75% of the time scan data is not registered

Mining:

-75% fragment synthesis fail to create metal/mineral

etc

Tell me it's okay when this happens to every profession and play style.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If a ship drops all its cargo/50% of the cargo when it combat logs, you will not ever see say another word about combat logging.

Firstly Frontier would need to have an infallible system of detecting combat logging - in all its forms. Secondly, a cargo drop probably wouldn't be acceptable to those players who just want to blow ships up for the emotional effects.

Tell me what sane trader is going to play on a private PvP server for the sole purpose of being a target for pirates, tell me.

Those who play in Open already?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Tell me it's okay when this happens to every profession and play style.

Player/player piracy is not directly equivalent to trading, exploration or mining in that it specifically ignores the vast majority of targets (players likely carrying more valuable cargo acknowledged - hopefully this will be "fixed" by increasing the value of NPC cargoes).

 

[GluttonyFang]

Firstly Frontier would need to have an infallible system of detecting combat logging - in all its forms. Secondly, a cargo drop probably wouldn't be acceptable to those players who just want to blow ships up for the emotional effects.

That I find satisfied easily by the proposal OP gave.

Those who play in Open already?

Unlikely, for that a PvP "server" attracts more Pkers than Open, and some appreciate Open for being a place where players that don't clearly class themselves either PvP or PvE. Little to no trader is going to specifically aim to be attacked, they want to retain the element of possibility of cooperation/bystander.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Player/player piracy is not directly equivalent to trading, exploration or mining in that it specifically ignores the vast majority of targets (players likely carrying more valuable cargo acknowledged - hopefully this will be "fixed" by increasing the value of NPC cargoes).

It is equivalent in a legitimacy sense and advertised profession of play.

 

[Mohrgan]

What if every Piracy victim just self destructed to avoid paying off an attacker? Would there be a cry to remove that feature from the game? Piracy causes the most complaints and hand wringing of any other subject on here. FD says, and provides tools, so one can pirate. They never promised that it would support your entire game currency needs, and they never said it would be easy.

Combat Logging is an unfortunate occurrence, just like mode jumping to stack missions, and griefing. We as a whole just have to learn to get over it. If it takes a weekly Kumbaya meeting for some group therapy, so be it. Maybe we should make a mega-thread called the "Campfire" where you all can sit down and talk it out.