Simple Fix to Combat Logging

Vyrsai · Mar 10, 2016

xondk said:
This is quite an accusation, you are basically saying "I am right and you are wrong" in the post above this too?

The internet is real, very real, games a very real, that they happen on a screen and not with a football in hand, doesn't change that one bit, it is the same investment of energy/time/emotions that people put into them, it is entertainment, it is supposed to be fun, EULA/TOS are things there to ensure it remains such. Yet you are accusing people of not being able to tell the difference? because they have a different opinion then you?

It's because he took the blue pill.

fennster · Mar 10, 2016

I consent to reading this thread, it's hilarious.

Do I consent to being part of a computer game?

only if they choose to use my likeness or a representation of me, and I oblige.

Do I consent to being part of a online cyberspace, with it's own set of rules, absolutely.

Tron? Come on.

xondk · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
If the EULA/TOS said anything about consenting to PVP being a requirement for playing in open, it might be relevant. It doesn't, so it isn't...

It is part of the game? so.....? I don't understand why you say this.
PvP is a part of the game, you chose to play it in an open mode where there are other people that 'can' attack you?, you chose to play in a mode where you can be attacked by others?

AJW · Mar 10, 2016

xondk said:
This is quite an accusation, you are basically saying "I am right and you are wrong" in the post above this too?

The internet is real, very real, games a very real, that they happen on a screen and not with a football in hand, doesn't change that one bit, it is the same investment of energy/time/emotions that people put into them, it is entertainment, it is supposed to be fun, EULA/TOS are things there to ensure it remains such. Yet you are accusing people of not being able to tell the difference? because they have a different opinion then you?

Yes, playing games is a real activity, engaged in by real people. And when other people claim that those people have 'consented' to something, they need to demonstrate real consent, rather than claiming that the game developers can do it for them.

Vyrsai · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
Yes, playing games is a real activity, engaged in by real people. And when other people claim that those people have 'consented' to something, they need to demonstrate real consent, rather than claiming that the game developers can do it for them.

You are giving consent to partake in what the game allows. It allows PVP, it doesn't allow combat logging. /thread

xondk · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
Yes, playing games is a real activity, engaged in by real people. And when other people claim that those people have 'consented' to something, they need to demonstrate real consent, rather than claiming that the game developers can do it for them.

Well you have consented, and though usually such claims are only made very defensively, as in "you are playing in open so I can attack you!", even though playing in open does not mean they should attack everyone, see EULA/TOS, and theoretically they are not doing anything wrong in attacking you, and this is why the EULA/TOS is there, game wise, mechanical wise, there is nothing illegal when it comes to griefing, nothing, nada, it is a fully legit blow people up mechanic in the game, the game does not currently give the one griefing a proper punishment.
However they most certainly are violating the heck out of the EULA/TOS, which is why it is there, and again, to repeat, given the gray area, that is why frontier is making said changes to consquences.

Vyrsai said:
You are giving consent to partake in what the game allows. It allows PVP, it doesn't allow combat logging. /thread

Exactly, because combat logging has been clearly stated is against the rules, and it is a very clear subject, there's no "Maybe" with combat logging, though the odd connection drop can happen, but other then that, very clear cut case.
Griefing is unfortunately gray, because people can and do make up reasons that are complete lies but "could" be possible, without knowing the person on the other side of the screen it is impossible for frontier to say it is a lie.
But that's why they are fixing the consequence / crime & punishment system.

Vyrsai · Mar 10, 2016

xondk said:
Well you have, though usually such claims are only made very defensively, and theoretically they are not doing anything wrong in attacking you, and this is why the EULA/TOS is there, game wise, mechanical wise, there is nothing illegal when it comes to griefing, nothing, nada, it is a fully legit blow people up mechanic in the game, the game does not currently give the one griefing a proper punishment.
However they most certainly are violating the heck out of the EULA/TOS, which is why it is there, and again, to repeat, given the gray area, that is why frontier is making said changes to consquences.

Exactly, because combat logging has been clearly stated is against the rules, and it is a very clear subject, there's no "Maybe" with combat logging, though the odd connection drop can happen, but other then that, very clear cut case.
Griefing is unfortunately gray, because people can and do make up reasons that are complete lies but "could" be possible, without knowing the person on the other side of the screen it is impossible for frontier to say it is a lie.
But that's why they are fixing the consequence / crime & punishment system.

Also the word "griefing" gets thrown around as a catch all to being engaged and destroyed half the time.

AJW · Mar 10, 2016

Vyrsai said:
You are giving consent to partake in what the game allows. It allows PVP, it doesn't allow combat logging. /thread

Nope. On cannot consent to something without being aware of it. A simple statement of fact. The EULA says nothing about consenting to PvP. Neither does the menu. Any claim that clicking on 'open' amounts to consent for PvP is therefore false. Personally, I don't think that such consent is necessary - but the fact is that people in this thread (and elsewhere) claim that all sorts of antisocial behaviour is permissible in open because merely playing there constitutes 'consent'. A nonsensical argument used to justify all sorts of stupidity. The sort of argument put forward by people trying to deflect attention from the fact that combat logging (the supposed topic of this thread) is symptomatic of larger behavioural problems. The sort of problems that lead newcomers (who often clearly don't know what goes on in open) to disconnect after being ganked for the umpteenth time. Or to complain on this forum after being ganked, only to be told that they have 'consented' to something they weren't aware of. A bit more respect, and a bit more allowance for the fact that not everyone has the same expectations of the game, will do a lot more to solve the combat logging problem than all the vacuous explanations for why it is all everyone else's fault but the antisocial elements who invent such bogus 'justifications'.

Vyrsai · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
Nope. On cannot consent to something without being aware of it. A simple statement of fact. The EULA says nothing about consenting to PvP. Neither does the menu. Any claim that clicking on 'open' amounts to consent for PvP is therefore false. Personally, I don't think that such consent is necessary - but the fact is that people in this thread (and elsewhere) claim that all sorts of antisocial behaviour is permissible in open because merely playing there constitutes 'consent'. A nonsensical argument used to justify all sorts of stupidity. The sort of argument put forward by people trying to deflect attention from the fact that combat logging (the supposed topic of this thread) is symptomatic of larger behavioural problems. The sort of problems that lead newcomers (who often clearly don't know what goes on in open) to disconnect after being ganked for the umpteenth time. Or to complain on this forum after being ganked, only to be told that they have 'consented' to something they weren't aware of. A bit more respect, and a bit more allowance for the fact that not everyone has the same expectations of the game, will do a lot more to solve the combat logging problem than all the vacuous explanations for why it is all everyone else's fault but the antisocial elements who invent such bogus 'justifications'.

You remind me of a little kid sticking it's fingers in it's ears and repeating, "I can't hear you, I can't hear you" over and over.

AJW · Mar 10, 2016

Vyrsai said:
You remind me of a little kid sticking it's fingers in it's ears and repeating, "I can't hear you, I can't hear you" over and over.

You remind me that arguing with idiots in internet forums is a waste of time...

Vyrsai · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
You remind me that arguing with idiots in internet forums is a waste of time...

Not gonna touch that one.

fennster · Mar 10, 2016

Ah, but did you consent to it?

Vyrsai · Mar 10, 2016

fennster said:
Ah, but did you consent to it?

Haven't you been paying attention?

Consent is just a figment of our imaginations and we are also in Tron.

Aewarin Jameson · Mar 10, 2016

What is implied consent ?

What has consent got to do with breaking the game rules by combat logging ?

*munches popcorn*

KaizoMK · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
You remind me that arguing with idiots in internet forums is a waste of time...

Right back at ya, sugar pop. I can't believe we're still even having a conversation about consent here.

GluttonyFang · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
At this point, since you appear to be having difficulty distinguishing between reality and the game, I'd recommend that rather than seeing your law professor, you talk to a member of the medical profession.

I suggest you actually open your mind for once, but you have already demonstrated much difficulty in doing so, so I won't force you for your own health.

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xondk said:
Interesting post, will read document, brief scanning looks interesting, there's been a lot of idea's by many, and similar idea's and this seems to sum it up good, but will read completely tomorrow, when I'm not heading to bed.

Sure, looking forward to your potential feedback

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AJW said:
Personally, I'd only play solo unwillingly, since it appears that doing so for any length of time leads to people not knowing the difference between it and reality. Not healthy...

It is indeed quite unhealthy to see the narrowness of one's mind.

Oogie Boogie · Mar 10, 2016

Liqua said:
- Make penalty for murder harsh
---- Fines paid off by you upon death ( +10% to stop bounty farming players )
---- Blow up too many of faction X and the stations start to turn on you / deny entry
---- Revoke membership to Federation of Pilots
---- Increase response by police (more, faster, larger fleets)
---- Increase response by BHs
- Etc etc etc

I think the green one would hurt... no Founders World for some times.

GluttonyFang · Mar 10, 2016

AJW said:
If the EULA/TOS said anything about consenting to PVP being a requirement for playing in open, it might be relevant. It doesn't, so it isn't...

Just keep dodging the question.

If PvP is non-consensual and every game mechanic available in Open/Group are all non-consensual, should we stop playing the game?

Already made distinction between consent and non-consent pages before this one, so won't repeat myself, but feel free typing away while covering your eyes.

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AJW said:
Yes, playing games is a real activity, engaged in by real people. And when other people claim that those people have 'consented' to something, they need to demonstrate real consent, rather than claiming that the game developers can do it for them.

No developers "consent" for anyone, people consent to the virtual world/environment the developers created and have total authority over. It's clear that you have an inability to comprehend concepts and simple reasoning that I laid out concisely.

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AJW said:
Nope. On cannot consent to something without being aware of it. A simple statement of fact. The EULA says nothing about consenting to PvP. Neither does the menu. Any claim that clicking on 'open' amounts to consent for PvP is therefore false. Personally, I don't think that such consent is necessary - but the fact is that people in this thread (and elsewhere) claim that all sorts of antisocial behaviour is permissible in open because merely playing there constitutes 'consent'. A nonsensical argument used to justify all sorts of stupidity. The sort of argument put forward by people trying to deflect attention from the fact that combat logging (the supposed topic of this thread) is symptomatic of larger behavioural problems. The sort of problems that lead newcomers (who often clearly don't know what goes on in open) to disconnect after being ganked for the umpteenth time. Or to complain on this forum after being ganked, only to be told that they have 'consented' to something they weren't aware of. A bit more respect, and a bit more allowance for the fact that not everyone has the same expectations of the game, will do a lot more to solve the combat logging problem than all the vacuous explanations for why it is all everyone else's fault but the antisocial elements who invent such bogus 'justifications'.

Sorry but the only bogus justification that comes close to my mind from this thread is that some people think they didn't give consent to PvP in Open and that somehow translates into legitimate right to combat log. Not saying that this is anyone's idea, but the thought itself is quite prominent.

I said this before and I will say this again:

GluttonyFang said:
Then don't step into a social environment where one knowingly encounter hostile interaction. This kind of argument is akin to a child throwing a tantrum when one does not get one's way.

Crime and punishment needs rework, there is no doubt, but to claim that certain interaction (save cheating with memory value manipulation back in the 32-bit client which is now much less rampant) are undesirable being a legitimate reason to combat log is beyond me when there are legitimate methods to avoid/escape undesirable circumstance and a 15-second combat log considered legitimate by the developers.

Mobius was created especially for those that want interaction without hostile interaction, people there are mature adults that agree to a certain rule set for certain kind of interaction just as people who play in Open that is full of unpredictable danger.

Combat logging isn't a rejection, it's a child's narcissism going unpunished and showing no respect whatsoever for open mode, no different than people that intentionally enter Mobius to disrupt the group.

PSA: Get out of Open if you have the mentality I described, you are not championing for any "human right," but instead throwing a tantrum like a child.

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AJW said:
You remind me that arguing with idiots in internet forums is a waste of time...

Indeed, but you see you remind me that arguing with idiots entertain me greatly when they dance about like monkeys on a string, so I find it great amusement watching them dance. The comedic value is priceless and a great opportunity for me to observe the depth of stupidity humanity can achieve. It often helps me wonder if I should take pity upon them or stomp them down a few more feet to see if the abyss plunges further, it has quite a lot of philosophical and scientific values that I take pride in recording.

I am greatly entertained.

GluttonyFang · Mar 10, 2016

Vyrsai said:
You remind me of a little kid sticking it's fingers in it's ears and repeating, "I can't hear you, I can't hear you" over and over.

Oh hey I'm not the only one! Repped!

babelfisch · Mar 10, 2016

Vyrsai said:
You are giving consent to partake in what the game allows. It allows PVP, it doesn't allow combat logging. /thread

But it doesn't say so anywhere, neither in the game or in the EULA. The only thing we have is a comment buried in a thread buried somewhere in this forum. 90% of the playerbase doesn't visit the forum. That doesn't mean that I am "pro combat logging".