PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

[JosiahD]

The reason this is interesting to me, is that being a Pirate, we need victims. Sorry but this cannot phrased any other way.
Also shocking to many, we do not shy away from challenge.

Remember though you already have plenty of 'victims' to choose from - they're called NPCs. Expecting to be able to be a successful pirate in this game if one bases that solely off attacking nothing but players is flawed to begin with. Piracy needs to be more rewarding (eg improved cargo being carried by NPCs), but as a whole, not simply from the perspective of exclusively targetting players and ignoring the other targets available to you. I get that you want PvP, but relying on piracy alone for that fix isn't ever going to work too well I suspect.

 

[BlueLumen]

For me, I don't play solo/pg because I want a solo/friend experience. I do it because I have ZERO interest in PvP, especially with the unbalance and zero reward. But you bring up balance then they demolish our favorite ships to "make them balanced", goodbye 900MJ shields on the FDL, hello 70% damage reduction on huge HP's, and welcome all ships to the T9 maneuverability club. You bring up reward, and chances are it will be a poorly implemented system that really doesn't reward anyone in the end, except of course the greedy no good pirate that MUST have player targets, even though there are NPC T9's floating around with Gold, Imperial Slaves and Palladium, granted, not very many, but again I guess that's why they want player targets because we always have the "high value" cargo, few good trade routes don't have Palladium or Imperial Slave, or other similarly valuable cargo. For this, I will never enter open, not until PvP is completely 100% optional, no "this rule and that rule", no " you must be flagged PvP here", completely optional. At this moment the only way to make it optional is by simply not going into open, and that's where I'm not going, and if they remove solo/pg and force open, Say goodbye to my annual "season pass" money. #OPTIONALPVPINOPEN

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Something people have overlooked a lot when discussing crime and punishment is financial incentive for the pirates and murderers. Everyone talks about higher punishment for random and pointless murder which I agree with, there should also be more actual financial incentive for criminally minded players to transact with their victims in a more thoughtful way. Currently piracy and murder is not profitable, and I believe if financially incentivized correctly (tricky and open to abuse) that would have a greater affect on the problem than simply trying to discourage random gankings.

Example:

A pirate pulls over a trader and demands some cargo which the trader drops. In addition to the dropped cargo, the pirate can demand protection payment from the target through the dialogue window. Like the conversation option from ye olde days of Elite when you could speak to NPCs. So the trader agrees the payment, but it's not paid by him but rather the trading federation or whoever. Of course if the pirate opts to just blow the guy out of the sky after grabbing the loot, the trader has no reason to agree to pay the protection money.

Preventing this from abuse: a period of cooldown per player, maybe 24 hours. To prevent pirates from repeatedly grabbing protection money from their friends.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

For me, I don't play solo/pg because I want a solo/friend experience. I do it because I have ZERO interest in PvP, especially with the unbalance and zero reward. But you bring up balance then they demolish our favorite ships to "make them balanced", goodbye 900MJ shields on the FDL, hello 70% damage reduction on huge HP's, and welcome all ships to the T9 maneuverability club. You bring up reward, and chances are it will be a poorly implemented system that really doesn't reward anyone in the end, except of course the greedy no good pirate that MUST have player targets, even though there are NPC T9's floating around with Gold, Imperial Slaves and Palladium, granted, not very many, but again I guess that's why they want player targets because we always have the "high value" cargo, few good trade routes don't have Palladium or Imperial Slave, or other similarly valuable cargo. For this, I will never enter open, not until PvP is completely 100% optional, no "this rule and that rule", no " you must be flagged PvP here", completely optional. At this moment the only way to make it optional is by simply not going into open, and that's where I'm not going, and if they remove solo/pg and force open, Say goodbye to my annual "season pass" money. #OPTIONALPVPINOPEN

Don't worry, FD have made it clear that solo is here to stay.

If the PvP miniority have a problem with this, well, the only way they're gonna' change things is by buying out FD.

 

[Arjin]

The only way any punishment system will ever work is if the punishment is so severe that it literally forces players to stop killing other players, which is not gonna happen. The punishment isn't the problem as it only mitigates some of the crime (too steep of a risk for some) others will just carry on and find a way to get through it.

Here is what it boils down to, for example, why would someone risk 15mil in creds ship+cargo when they don't have to? oh wait because that guy/gal that just killed me gets a stiffer penalty oh that's fun im in... not. It's the LOSS of creds/time of the player killed that matters there is no compensation, there is no redress, just eat it and move on. That is why it's essentially pointless, those that want to play in open.. great. those that want to play in solo/pg.. great.

Players will not flock back to open just because murderers now have a harder time after killing someone it doesn't change a damn thing for them.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

The only way any punishment system will ever work is if the punishment is so severe that it literally forces players to stop killing other players, which is not gonna happen. The punishment isn't the problem as it only mitigates some of the crime (too steep of a risk for some) others will just carry on and find a way to get through it.

Here is what it boils down to, for example, why would someone risk 15mil in creds ship+cargo when they don't have to? oh wait because that guy/gal that just killed me gets a stiffer penalty oh that's fun im in... not. It's the LOSS of creds/time of the player killed that matters there is no compensation, there is no redress, just eat it and move on. That is why it's essentially pointless, those that want to play in open.. great. those that want to play in solo/pg.. great.

Players will not flock back to open just because murderers now have a harder time after killing someone it doesn't change a damn thing for them.

I'm mostly a PVE player, and a more mature gaming environment would get me to go back into open. Can't speak for anyone else but there it is.

 

[Arjin]

I'm mostly a PVE player, and a more mature gaming environment would get me to go back into open. Can't speak for anyone else but there it is.

Understood, but there is nothing FD or anyone can do to make it be more mature. It sucks that people suck but what can anyone do about it without creating Elite: Unicorn. Solo/PG is the only option.

 

[Itaki]

Level of consequences:

1. A lingering record of how piratey you are. Like when you are scanned your total number of recent kills is visible even if you aren't currently wanted. Or make a criminal history scanner a purchasable module like a KWS or even part of the KWS. Real Life law enforcement agencies (and now even civilians) have extensive criminal history information available to them. Criminals are not just either Wanted or Clean. There are dangerous ex-offender systems to alert cops to people who have committed major crimes in the past but are now 'free.' There are non-extraditable warrants (aka stay out of my town warrants) to alert cops.

Maybe just tie all recent kill info to the KWS by module rating.

E-rated KWS provides 24 hour kill history.
D - 2 days
C - 3 days
B - 5 days
A - 7 days.

2. LOCAL SYSTEM ONLY consequences.
1st Homicide in a particular system in 24 hours (say, a CG system for instance) - Warrant issued, lazy police response.
2nd Homicide (defined as CMDR or Cop killing btw) - Warrant, upgraded police response.
3rd Homicide - Cops will kill pirate whether you're in local space or supercruise. No docking at Large stations.
4th Homicide - 24 hour ban from the system. You can wreak havoc somewhere else for a day.

3. If this were reality we would have an interstellar police agency like Concord (or the FBI or Interpol) with inter-system 'warrant service' jurisdiction. One of these agents could now and then harass a wanted pirate.

4. Real police also gather information as to where a criminal frequents or lives and do stake-outs, waiting to bust them.

 

[Majinvash]

Well FDEV today started that all modes are not equal and that there should be incentive to play in Open.

This is a step in the right direction.

Hopefully after they make it viable to Powerplay in Open, they will also buff the trading.

Maybe Piracy isn't dead.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Sandmann]

Well FDEV today started that all modes are not equal and that there should be incentive to play in Open.

This is a step in the right direction.

Hopefully after they make it viable to Powerplay in Open, they will also buff the trading.

Maybe Piracy isn't dead.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Err no... let's not exagerate... Sandro had an idea about powerplay specifically, he said nothing of rebalancing modes in general. He's also had a (much more detailed) idea about crime and consequence, on more than one occasion and so far nothing's eventuated. See this is why devs almost never talk to us about ideas and plans, coz people treat it like gospel and get all over excited and expect it to actually happen, and to happen they way THEY want, and for it to be in the next update.

Stay calm and cogitate.

 

[Sugarat]

Thread is TLDR tbh.. so anything I add has probably already been stated..

My CV: played since Gamma exclusively in Open.. 99% of in game experience has been PvE but the PvP I have experienced, whether it be me instigating the fight or me as the target, has been fun and enriching

I would like to see a rising scale of criminality as with the original games.. something GTA does well with an increased security response/difficulty level depending on the crime being committed..

High security/Low profit systems and vice versa would make the game more interesting, add to that higher profits for smuggling in High security systems.. Anarchy systems should be exactly that, and therefore offer the highest profits..

Scaling denial of docking rights dependant on "bad boy" status is a great idea.. and realistic denial, far too easy to dock atm with a wanted status..

 

[tailesin]

This usual round again I see...................

People seem to be posting their "CV's" so: I am one of the "Kickstarter Brigade" - I have a varied amount of time to play, depending on work and RL "stuff", so I don't like to waste my time. I mostly play in Private Groups because I don't like to waste my time.

Just a few idea's, no one of them that I haven't read or seen here or elsewhere before. Starting from, in my uneducated non-computer game programming way of thinking, the simplest:

1. Remove the PLayer Indicators - Yeah get rid of the hollow boxes and either remove the CMDR start of names or add it to everyone. PvP people do like to rather badly taunt PvE people by saying "in the real world.....". Well in the real world there are no indicators, there are just people......

2. Increase NPC Trade Traffic - In conjunction with number 1. I think this would (with a little NPC programming to offer to drop cargo - although this may be more complex than I think) make being an "actual pirate" rather than just a killer a more attractive option.

3. Cargo Insurance - I see an indicator for this (at least last time I had a good look), but it's not in game as far as I can see........... And yes I would say you have to pay extra for it, not get it as an automatic thing.

4. System Security Levels - Don't moan about me mentioning, but Eve-Online has this set up rather nicely. You can argue if it is perfect or not (it isn't IMHO), but it works. The security needs to be beefed up in those systems that are in the "core" area's and probably non-existent in the "Badlands".

5. Distress Beacons - Ship have a beacon for wing mates to warp in on, why not have the same for people under attack. The length of time it takes for help to come should depend on security level, system faction standing etc. It could also alert other players. This could also work to the Pirates advantage if everyone gets signalled. More fun for you guys, more pew pew!!!

6. Security response - The cops need to be more heavy handed (yes I know they kill you anyway), they need to come along in a force that gonna make you flee if you can't pull off a heist in time.

7. NPC Mercenary Hire - Why shouldn't merchants hire NPC ship to fly with them? I know the AI can be a little off at times, but it must be better than nothing. This might become redundant with the larger ships carrying fighters.

With these and other idea's added and then balanced I could see reasoning to separate the Solo and Open Games - to begin with, later Private. The popularity of some of the private groups (Mobus 1 & 2, EDC - plus others I guess) shows there a need for some changes. Sure many people do just play in open and that's good for them. Many people want the solo experience and I don't think they will move from that even with changes. They play in solo probably for as many reasons as there are people playing in solo. They want the original game feel with updated content, graphic etc. Let them do that (without handing out the usual abuse).

To people who say this is a PvP game - NO IT'S NOT. Its is an open sandbox game. You want PvP go to the Arena, try COD, Try The Division (I hear it's good). Open games need rules (well all games need them but...), these rules can either be enforced by the players (I have seen this one stated in these sort discussions before, but never seen it in practice on a large scale, with the exception of the Mobius Groups which are not perfect - A possible contender for this first is Naval Action, bit early to say) or by the game. The game enforces these by either having PvP area's/arena's (pick any MMO for an example of this!) or by in game mechanics (the Police and Security structures in EVE-online). Sometimes the PvP areas are in places where players who don't normally do PvP have to go (to complete quests etc), but not a great deal. I would rather see the game enforce than wait for the players to get organised. Having been in "guilds" before organising players (unless it's a very small number) is like herding cats (I only have two cats now, before I had six. I have tried herding them, as well as organising players.............)

Anyway enough from me, the "Kickstarter Brigade" man. I can see this turning into the usual bun fight and handbags at dawn, but let's hope not.

Peace (or War!! if you're that way inclined )

 

[Tetryl]

Understood, but there is nothing FD or anyone can do to make it be more mature. It sucks that people suck but what can anyone do about it without creating Elite: Unicorn. Solo/PG is the only option.

And the choice between Open or Solo is most likely going to make matters worse. Right now, there are many professions where going into Open makes very little sense. Why would a trader or miner go into Open, except to maybe chat a bit with a random guy who happens to be nearby while in transit or mining?

But if all those for whom Open doesn't make much sense go Solo, what will be left in Open? Just PvP murder players. Not even PvP pirates, because the only players left will be those, where all possible cargo space has been replaced by hull reinforcements. Maybe Powerplay people, if the recently discussed changes happen, but even then, that leads towards a future where Open is not a place for both friendly and hostile human interaction, but exclusively for hostile interaction. Everyone you might have had friendly contact with will have been chased to Solo/Private, because Open becomes the bad neighbourhood exclusively populated by crazy psychos.

We're not at that point yet, you do still find nice people in Open, but it's the logical evolution given the current incentives and disincentives - Open interaction would get better on average if Solo/Private were eliminated, but that would also make many ship types and configurations inpractical because they wouldn't be survivable against dedicated PvP builds.

 

[tailesin]

You can't now eliminate solo, it's there, so it has to stay.

IF FD did eliminate it the people playing in solo would then, quite rightly, be able to demand a refund if the rest of the game kept going. What about people who have bad connections to the internet? It might be harder to believe these days, but the connection here where I am (rural Scotland) is not very stable or very fast for that matter. That's not the individuals choice it's the state of technology available in the various locations Anyone who says "well move to a city then", and I have had that said to me (not about this game yet) I say that's an idiotic argument to make. No one here playing this actually purchased a 100% online game - Yeah you need a connection, but it was never intended to be 100% online........

 

[Tetryl]

I'm not advocating eliminating Solo. It's just that having the current situation, you have Solo, which is fairly safe. Then you have Open, which offers more than Solo mostly for PvP players who can kill freely with minimal risk, while it offers few positives and serious negatives for PvE players. The logical thing to do, is for the PvE players to stay away from Open. This will also eliminate the reason for the sensible in-character PvP players (pirates) to be in Open, because there's no reason for their targets to go there. End result: Open becomes the PvP murder ghetto, populated by the psychos and the occasional newbie who hasn't figured it out yet.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

Ensure that the buyback credit amount is deducted/paid by the perpetrator/CMDR responsible for ship destruction.

In other words, want to poo-poo? Be prepared to pay the other ship's insurance bill upon destruction. Credits should not be a problem as they are easily obtainable by the PvP'ers.

 

[Chrystoph]

Understood, but there is nothing FD or anyone can do to make it be more mature. It sucks that people suck but what can anyone do about it without creating Elite: Unicorn. Solo/PG is the only option.

Don't bash on Unicorns as harmless...

 

[Jypson]

I'm not advocating eliminating Solo. It's just that having the current situation, you have Solo, which is fairly safe. Then you have Open, which offers more than Solo mostly for PvP players who can kill freely with minimal risk, while it offers few positives and serious negatives for PvE players. The logical thing to do, is for the PvE players to stay away from Open. This will also eliminate the reason for the sensible in-character PvP players (pirates) to be in Open, because there's no reason for their targets to go there. End result: Open becomes the PvP murder ghetto, populated by the psychos and the occasional newbie who hasn't figured it out yet.

> I highly doubt it, there are many on the forums who are loud and proud to proclaim they only play in Open despite various player derived antics.

 

[Zelos1983]

What I am interested in is the **level** of consequences that would need to be seen to get players out of the safer private/solo modes and into what will be inherently the more dangerous Open.

The game mode decision is not based on consequences for me. But rather, at start, I decide whether to play alone (solo), with friends (group) or with strangers (open). There must be a valid reason to go into open, e.g. for community events (e.g. the Abraham Lincoln event last year).

Whenever I go into open, I count the ship I use for that mission as disposable. So when I get blown up by someone else -> no big deal. I don't care about consequences.

I don't think "consequences" should change, as it will be largely detrimental for gameplay. We see already huge issues with the bounty system (speeding mechanic) that haven't been fixed yet and negatively impact the game for everyone.

The reason this is interesting to me, is that being a Pirate, we need victims. Sorry but this cannot phrased any other way.
Also shocking to many, we do not shy away from challenge.

Why not pirate NPCs?
I do that sometimes for fun in anarchy systems. Interdict, shoot down their shields, fire hatchbreaker limpet and kill them if they don't retreat. Then scoop.

Edit: That is a good example of negative influence on gameplay:

Ensure that the buyback credit amount is deducted/paid by the perpetrator/CMDR responsible for ship destruction.

In other words, want to poo-poo? Be prepared to pay the other ship's insurance bill upon destruction. Credits should not be a problem as they are easily obtainable by the PvP'ers.

So whenever somebody rams you exiting the station while you turn your ship and prepare for jump, you not only incur a large penalty for rebuy and cargo (a low-shielded T9 won't survive long against station and NPCs), you would also have to pay the rebuy cost of the NPC, adding further to your damage.

 

[Im_Lost]

It should go back to how it was originaly. If you commit a murder, the bounty does not clear until someone either claims it or you pay it off. Plus you get no insurance. Though this time it should be a percentage of your overall wealth rather than a fixed sum.