PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

[Caointean]

1) Increase the bounties.
2) Make sure the bounty is deducted from of the wanted CMDR savings when someone claims it (+ fees for transfers also paid by the wanted CMDR). That would prevent bounty farming between two wanted players.
3) Have a real NPC police response depending on system security level/permit status. (Yes, I don't understand how a wing three FDL and a Corvette have been able to go on a murder rampage in Beta Hydri while the new fed capital ship was being built without being chased by one thousand police corvettes and 2 Faraguts.)
4) Increase in insurance cost when the wanted players rebuys his ship, based on the number of crimes committed in a row.

That's all I can think of now

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Wow Maj, i'm impressed with your thread. Good question and fairly well phrased... if a bit brutally honest

Very possibly the first time i've given you rep.

In answer to you question, ill break it down into two parts.

What sort of crime and punishment system would get me into open?

Frankly speaking. I can't think of anything. I bought ED on the understanding that it would be largely a PvE game, that modes would allow me to choose who played with (and without), and PvP would be rare and meaningful. Unfortunately, its neither rare (if you are in the right/wrong systems), and often anything but meaningful. If i'm willing to fly in open, that means accepting the possibility of PvP. As someone who isn't a master of PvP, and really i have little desire to become one, and i'm not willing to fly a combat ship fitted for PvP to give myself a chance, I have to accept my only option is to run from any PvP encounter. So, why bother in the first place? Either the PvPer gets an easy kill, or they don't get PvP because i run.

Frankly speaking, being jumped by 4 players in silent running fitted FAS holds zero interest for me. No matter how they change crime and punishment or offer incentives, i did my time in Open, i have no intention of ever returning.

What sort of crime and punishment system do i think might attract other people into Open?

Probably been said a dozen times. Different tiers of criminal ranks. High sec being actually secure, with NPC gankings for players who get a high wanted status and commit crimes there. Run or die, that's how it should be in high sec for dedicated criminals. At the same time, i'd like to see some actual incentive for criminal style gameplay (even for PvE criminal gameplay), with higher criminal status bringing you high paying missions and status with criminal organizations, possibly even then access to specific modules that help more with criminal activities. Like Archon's laser, but more effective, or faster working hatch breakers (i think you'd quite like that Maj?). Take that Elite Dangerous marketing meme, choose your career, and make it mean something. Make it hard, if not damn near impossible to get rid of a heavy criminal status, but be more forgiving for minor incidents (like random stray shots). And of course, close stupid exploits like jumping in a Sidewinder and getting killed to clear your wanted status. The police shouldn't forget you are a wanted criminal just because your ship was blown up and you had to use your escape capsule.

Hope that helps somewhat.

EDIT: I'll just add my support for the previous comments that no matter what FD do, i don't think it will cause a significant shift in the number of players playing in Open. Those who are willing to accept the risk of PvP are already there. Those that arn't are already in group/solo or are in Open but just haven't grokked that you can switch modes. Strangely enough we still get periodic questions from people thinking different modes means different saves :O

 

[EddyRockSteady]

So whenever somebody rams you exiting the station while you turn your ship and prepare for jump, you not only incur a large penalty for rebuy and cargo (a low-shielded T9 won't survive long against station and NPCs), you would also have to pay the rebuy cost of the NPC, adding further to your damage.

perpetrator

noun [C] UK

› someone who has ​committed a ​crime or a ​violent or ​harmful ​act:

So, the act of ramming would be considered a crime and as a consequence, as I said, the perpetrator would be responsible for the buyback cost of the destroyed ship.

As for NPC buyback amounts, I thought this discussion was about PvP? As such, NPC consequences are irrelevant - I am referring to Player vs Player interaction only.

 

[Chaz]

A PvP on off flag is about the only thing that would tempt me into Open.

10-20 years ago I used to enjoy playing multiplayer FPS's. Team Fortress, Counter Strike, the Battlefield games. Now I'm older and my tastes have changed and I no longer care for competitive online gaming. I have zero interest in it, I don't want to do it. Been there done it, bored of it. Elite offers me a way to play without all that and to play cooperatively with friends. All the crime and punishment changes in the world would not tempt me into Open as I simply just don't want to bother with that sort of gameplay at all, period.

I would say that the vast majority of people that choose the PvE play style do so for similar reasons. They would rather play alone or co-operatively because that's just the way they want to spend their free leisure time.

Unfortunately it seems that there's a good few PvP players that are of the mindset that because they enjoy PvP then anyone that plays in a PvE or Solo mode must be "hiding" because they're afraid of the conflict and can some how be tempted back out. When the simple fact of the matter is many people choose to play PvE because that is what suits their mentalities. That being the case, changing the crime and punishment system or incentivising Open with rewards isn't going to change that.

 

[Jypson]

...What I am interested in is the **level** of consequences that would need to be seen to get players out of the safer private/solo modes and into what will be inherently the more dangerous Open...

There is no way I could answer for anyone else, so this an answer from me only.

Personally, I'm not interested in playing Elite with other people. It's not a matter of perceived difficulty or safety, I just don't want you, or anyone else in my game. I'm just not a multiplayer kinda guy, never have been.

There is no change to the games crime/punishment mechanics that would change my mind about playing in anything but Solo...or maybe a very tiny Private Group.

---

On a side-note, there is some work to be done on the crime/punishment mechanics for the entire game. As I stated higher up in the thread, I took a BB mission to kill 55 civilians in a neighboring system just to see what the games AI would do about it. Short answer, not a thing. The only time I got hassled at all was when I killed a few civilians right in front of the fuzz at the Nav Beacon. That doesn't seem right, right?

 

[Kristov]

Right off the bat...

Pirates don't need other players to be pirates, did you know that Maj? Nope, they don't, but griefers need other players, can't grief without targets after all. And I'm wondering which one you are...

Nah, just kidding man, I know exactly which one you are, so does everyone else.

 

[DaveB]

Well FDEV today started that all modes are not equal and that there should be incentive to play in Open.

This is a step in the right direction.

Hopefully after they make it viable to Powerplay in Open, they will also buff the trading.

Maybe Piracy isn't dead.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

You wish. Sandro made a comment about PP specifically, which is - as I acknowledged in his thread - potentially a place where it might be OK to reward PvP over popping NPCs. However all the folks with a long history of blethering in the open vs solo threads immediately jumped on it wanting it to be more than that. Will those folks ever stop urinating in the well and spoiling the entire game for reasonable PvPers like yourself? Probably not.

 

[Anopheles]

A pvp flag would need some very interesting lore behind for it to be remotely viable, otherwise it's a whole herd of cows in the china shop of suspension of disbelief.

Its a simulation with a game attached. Space should be hard, dirty and unpredictable, otherwise its just a very complicated game of go fetch. I'd personally rather live in Space Somalia than space Sweden.

I do agree that a proper part of the simulation should be a robust and realistic crime and punishment.

This needs:

Safe space
Lawless zones
These zones should be like the economy and fluctuate. Some zones should become safer, some less so. This would make pilots responsible for their own travel decisions and make the simulation feel more alive. Naturally bigger profits should be in the less lawful zones.
Persona no grata status in 'civilized space'.
More expence needed to repair and outfit in lawless areas on supply and demand.
A sort out of the currently broken PVP system to encourage bounty hunters and pug posses.

I'd also have a risk bonus in open trading of a straight 20% (so as not to affect the overall market).

I'd also educate on the risk and rewards of playing in open and tell people to be relaxed about losing time or credits to players. It really isn't a matter of getting to a set point, it really is,all about the journey.

 

[Viscera]

I felt it would be good to respond in this thread with some of my thoughts, as I am a "non-open mission runner".

I play on a laptop, using a keyboard and mouse, and yet I enjoy the game and my time spent puttering around in it, doing missions and exploring strange sights. I have done combat (pve) but mostly I only fight interdictions. This hopefully tells you I tend not to fly out and out Cargo vessels, and have some resiliency built into my ship.

I could play in Open, but at present find the risk outweighs the reward,

What usually happens is I may complete a couple of missions, and then get interdicted by a player and blown up. I do not find the attacks thrilling or exciting in anyway. I usually do not have the time to find them engaging in any way at all, and spend longer in the rebuy screen than I do in the preceding fight. I then find any money I have earned previously from when I logged on is now wasted on insurance cost.

So all playing in open usually gets me is a large slice of wasted time.

But there is something that should be said before i go any further

I am not against open in any way. I accept that it is an area of the game that pretty much any style of game play is to be encouraged and allowed to flourish within all reason.

So pretty much as long as you do not just sit outside the starting station and keep blowing up the same beginning player time and time again, most things are fine, including random acts of violence against my ship.

This is what Open is. I accept that.

If I do not want it, I can play in a group (which I do, a very popular one) or in Solo (which I do sometimes too purely as the connection speeds are so much better).

So on the whole, all is (or should be) fine.

But sadly there are some players who think this is not right.

I am unsure why but they think I should have to ply my trade in open where they can impose their play style on me, or suffer being effectively called a coward and accused of hiding away.

I actually think I am just not being stupid, and am enjoying the game in the way I wish to, whilst still being able to progress my gaming experience in the form of getting a better ship or higher upgrades etc etc, rather than just paying insurance costs and losing my trade goods again and again.

But something inside does make me want to play in Open. I think it is the part of me that basically says why should I have to miss out. I do not think I am really missing much by not playing in open, but even so the feeling is there.

Ok all that background aside now, lets look to what would make me want to play in open, in any capacity other than with a fully tanked up small ship designed for no purpose other than staying alive long enough to run away, which lets be honest, is all I could reasonably expect to do at present.

I am not dismissing the following two ideas in any way, but I am going to point out what if any effect they have on my style of play and as to whether it effects where I would do it.

Firstly increased bounties do not make me want to risk my credits. They do not give me any benefit. Will they stop the average open attacker from destroying me and costing me credits? No.

Does increased security make me want to risk my credits. Again no, overall I do not see any way this helps me. I am usually dead long before any security is going to drop in and robin hood my behind out of the fire.

At present I will cut to the chase and say I have not seen an idea which actually makes it worth my while to switch to open play and take the risk with my time.

The only thing that realistically makes Open an option is better profit for doing what I do. You effectively need a mission that is failed if you enter any mode other than Open whilst you have it. It needs to pay slightly more than it would normally to compensate for the risk of performing it in open offers. This is about the only thing I could say - Make the Reward equal the Risk.

So not the most helpful offering I guess, but it may give you a glimpse of what I feel the problem really is.

Yes the crime and punishment does need an overhaul, and it does need to happen, but I do not see that this will truthfully have any effect on getting the average player to take that risk and leave themselves open to a fast and expensive loss by playing with the sharks in open.

Cheers, John.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

A pvp flag would need some very interesting lore behind for it to be remotely viable, otherwise it's a whole herd of cows in the china shop of suspension of disbelief.

Weapons fitted to Pilot Federation ships have controllers fitted which will not fire again against other members of the Pilot's Federation unless agreed upon by both parties.

There you go, that's your lore.

 

[Jediben]

Majinvash doesn't 'Pirate' anyway - he interdicted, forces people to dump cargo or kills them and then jumps out. There is no cargo space on his ship and no cargo is collected and sold. He isn't making a living selling the proceeds, he is just making other player's lives worse. The fact that he is in a Cutter half the time is just another snub to players who didn't exploit the 'Seeking weapons' or the old bounties to amass huge balances.

 

[jasonbirder]

Some things that would make Crime/Consequences more sensible...and in line with the imaginary "Elite Universe"

Wanted status...scaling from System...to local group of worlds...to Power...to the entire Federation/Imperium/Alliance depending on the frequency/severity of the crime...it seems daft that I can commit multiple murders in one system - jump 3-4 light years away to a system under the influence of the same powers and that Wanted status not to carry over...

Insurance...in what world would an insurance company pay out for a ship destroyed carrying out criminal acts...no more insurance cover when you're wanted!

Seizure of assets...why wouldn't the assets (docked ships?) of wanted criminals be seized when they're docked at civilised worlds in regular communication with systems a CMDR is wanted in?

I'm sure there's more that wouldn't require major changes...would give a more realistic feel to the consequences of crime...and wouldn't require Frontier to come down for or against PVP activity...keeping both PVP and PVE groups happy and encouraging more people into open...

PVP should be legitimate (its a space combat game after all) but wanted criminals and pirates should be spending time in Anarchy systems to avoid the law...only venturing out to strike their next victim!

 

[Anopheles]

Weapons fitted to Pilot Federation ships have controllers fitted which will not fire again against other members of the Pilot's Federation unless agreed upon by both parties.

There you go, that's your lore.

As long as there was a very expensive way to 'jack it' so it could be ignored. But get's reset when you go into Corporate Systems.....

That actually could go with the 'fluctuating danger' of space. If you enter 'safe space' the Pilot's Inhibitors kick in..... until it is not safe anymore with N'erdowells damaging the Inhibitor Relays.

In fact, Inhibitors could be switched off whenever a system goes anarchy or temporaily during Civil War. It could even be a Player Event to take down the heavily defended Inhibitor Relays.

If an Inhibitor is down then this can be relayed to any pilot attempting to travel to a system. THen they can decide to take the risk or not.

I think this could actually be the solution.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Majinvash doesn't 'Pirate' anyway - he interdicted, forces people to dump cargo or kills them and then jumps out. There is no cargo space on his ship and no cargo is collected and sold. He isn't making a living selling the proceeds, he is just making other player's lives worse. The fact that he is in a Cutter half the time is just another snub to players who didn't exploit the 'Seeking weapons' or the old bounties to amass huge balances.

We get this a lot. No proof is ever offered, but we're meant to believe you because 'you know'.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Majinvash doesn't 'Pirate' anyway - he interdicted, forces people to dump cargo or kills them and then jumps out. There is no cargo space on his ship and no cargo is collected and sold. He isn't making a living selling the proceeds, he is just making other player's lives worse. The fact that he is in a Cutter half the time is just another snub to players who didn't exploit the 'Seeking weapons' or the old bounties to amass huge balances.

Not relevant, Maj appears to have asked an honest question, and his playstyle is not under discussion here.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Kind of is relevant, when a wolf is asking a sheep what kinds of things would encourage them to become a target, it's useful to know the wolf's actual motivation for asking.

 

[Sugarat]

Kind of is relevant, when a wolf is asking a sheep what kinds of things would encourage them to become a target, it's useful to know the wolf's actual motivation for asking.

It's a question a lot of people are asking, and have been for a while now..

It is in the interest of everyone, regardless of game style/mode to have a credible crime and punishment system in place..

Derisory comments do nothing to further the discussion..

 

[ShimEnki]

"To get players out of private and solo modes" for many isn't about safety. Its about state, frequency-vibe. Its kinda like saying, how do we get people that enjoy listening to classical to come have latte in our
acid rock or heavy metal cafe. ---To succeed at this will mean you change your cafe to playing classical music.---not going to happen

Preference to one state of activity etc does not mean fear of other states. Fear based mindsets accompany PVP and that vibration of action, and its that vibration that functions as filtering blinders which gives rise to the notion that PVE minded players will ever be interested in PVP no matter how loud or low you play that music (consequences of murder etc). PVE mindsets do not make fearbased decisions.

Basically...look past the paintjob and examine under the hood. PVP rattles too much P

 

[KaizoMK]

A few to kick off:

1) Several wanted levels increasing in severity, linked to consequences;
2) Increased rebuy costs with wanted level;
3) Possibility of replacement ships not being fitted with weapons / FSD-Interdictors - the Pilots' Federation may not allow wanted pilots to receive such replacement equipment fitted to their replacement ship.
4) Increasing police response with wanted level;
5) Removal of docking privileges in Minor Faction / Power / Major Faction stations and bases (escalating depending on wanted level);

I don't think it's so reasonable to withhold weapons from players - I'd rather see their insurance go up, and the insurance of victims added to a murderer's bounty.

But more than consequence, we need a reasonable police response....it's so easy to just kill players if you're equipped for combat and they are not. Moreover, npc wings (along with general ai improvements) will give viability to traders, and then traders won't have to lean on buggy ai to run dedicated trading builds - in fact, that won't be possible with a more aggressive and better ai.

It's just not viable to use many loadouts in open, and that's because a lot of loadouts only make sense in the context of wings. So between realistic/balanced police response, and realistic/balanced flight configurations, there ought to be little difference between pve and pvp.

After all, it's all about removing the differences between player and ai....right now traders can't go it alone against a player because players do things like shoot fast, shoot your thrusters, generally run more efficiently than ai for now. Let's make ai more deadly, and make the game playable for any build.

 

[Majinvash]

Genuinely surprised no one has said I cheat, combat log or wont fight unless i am in a wing yet.
That is the usual goto but kudos for your attempts, i rate it 5/7. ( I will even rep them )

I believe I was pretty clear about my intentions but people wishing to stand on their ickle soap boxes and bleat about how I just grief, just to try and impress others on this forum with their deep knowledge of my play style is awesome. It shows that whatever I am doing in game, I am doing it right!

But to be clear on my playstyle and intentions. "I WANT PLAYERS TO PIRATE BECAUSE NPC's ARE BORING AND PREDICTABLE"

Allow me to offer some truths. For those who have not heard of me or for those who apparently know me well.

I hunt players. Even the worst player is more challenging than an NPC. Sometimes I "Boil them up" for LOL's but usually because they do not do as they are told.
I pirate players because they can interact and are unpredictable. Also and this is a given, they carry the best booty.
I usually pirate in a Python or Corvette, both have upwards of 64tonnes of cargo space and collector limpets.
I don't cargo scan, 1) it is a waste of a utility slot and 2) because 99% of the time if you hunt in the right systems, the only people there in trade ships are there to Sell Something. That 1% I sometimes make dance for me. ( True story )
I stream A LOT and can usually be seen stalking around Cemiese, regularly taking in full hauls of Abandoned Imperial Slaves.
While steaming you will see that my Empire rank is not high enough for a Cutter, you will also hear my distaste for Cutters as they are OP. ( A for effort Jediben )
Sometimes, I will fly with SDC and blow players up because there is nothing else to do. Also as previously stated NPC's are not a challenge to me.
I LOVED to fly my Viper and Dual PA Vulture, taking on the biggest baddest ships I can find because I love the challenge. ( Currently this isn't really viable because the current meta and hull reinforcements make it near impossible to inflict enough damage with either of these two ships.)
I have pirated in my FDL in The New Caribbean, which didn't have any cargo space. Simply to keep the notoriety of The Code in peoples minds. ( Seems to have worked )
I went in Mobius over a year ago and Pirated all the players I could find, it was a lot of fun. They are still salty over it.
Do I care about others hurt feelings in a computer game? - This one I will let you guess.
Did I have a bad up bringing, am I mentally unbalanced, do I kick kittens. ( No, No, once but it dark and an accident (she is fine and can be seen often on stream) )
Is there a difference between what I do and NPC's? Nope. Just your feelings and that I am better at what I do, boosting in a straight line wont work.

So please continue your praise of my work, if you could make it more interesting and check your facts that would be awesome.

If you wish to check any of my work

https://www.twitch.tv/majinvash Most nights from 9pm GMT
https://www.youtube.com/user/dannyboi131313/videos Plenty of Video's of me pirating and some of just blowing stuff up.

Back on Topic.

The answers are what I expected, there have been some excellent mechanic suggestions but to summarise what I took from the thread.

There is nothing FDEV can do that will make players play back in Open ( the ones who do want to play with others ) all the time they have access to other risk free modes that offer equal rewards.

I wonder if FDEV realise this and if this is the case, why bother wasting time and resources?

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[DaveB]

Kind of is relevant, when a wolf is asking a sheep what kinds of things would encourage them to become a target, it's useful to know the wolf's actual motivation for asking.

If you see it that way, as if anyone not playing as a "wolf" is playing as a "sheep" then your viewpoint is understandable. Me, I'm a cat. I'll happily catch and eat the little birdies but when there's something bigger than me in the neighborhood I'm sensible enough to not start the fight. The yapping canine that challenges me might win but he's going to get a clawed nose in the process and I'm gonna be up a tree spitting defiance at the end of it

Sure, there's critter out there that can eat me, but if I get caught by one of them, that's at least 50% my fault...