the station bandit last night

[Erimus Kamzel]

I really think the prevalence of this type of game play is being a bit underestimated right now. Ganking at any cost is not something enjoyed by a minority, strange as that seems, it's very popular, legitimate and essential if you want an open world to play in.
Problem is you create a dichotomy and with it an eternal balancing act to keep both sides happy.

FD appears on the face of it to have put some thought into controlling 'griefing'.
But what is preventing continuous character recreation?
Massed disposable 'free' sidewinders on a popular starting station undock, a third party waiting to scoop. Delete and recreate commanders rather than pay the 'fine'. If not that, it'll be some other cunning workaround

This issue was raised a while ago. Eve Online was plagued by disposable alts, I hope ED won't be.

One suggestion was the ability to click on any character and see what 'aliases' he's gone by (i.e. what other characters have been associated with that account in the past). That would at least prevent players from hiding antisocial behavior behind a disposable and temporary character.

As for ganking, when you think about it, Elite will be...

• a gameworld on a completely different scale to all other multiplayer gamewords that have gone before. 70,000 inhabited systems already makes it 7 times larger than Eve Online. And 100,000 billion destinations beyond that makes it the largest play area, ever. The chances of meeting a ganksquad could be infinitesimal.
  
• No artificial choke points (like jump gates) forcing people together to interact and fight.
  
• No territorial ownership, again no artificial mechanics to force interaction and conflict.
  
• Hyperdrives that allow you to travel anywhere (if in range and you have the fuel).
  
• Grouping systems that allow you to avoid potential hotspots by dropping into solo online mode and avoid player hotspots if they happen to be your route.
  
• Ignore lists where players can scour the forums and take names of the most notorious outlaws, log in to the game, and add them to their own personal ignore list - cutting down the chances of ever being instanced with said players.
  
• a solo online mode.
  
• private groups.

With that little lot in a players arsenal to avoid antisocial players I'm wondering how common gank squads will get in ED, if at all?

 

[gazzareth]

FD appears on the face of it to have put some thought into controlling 'griefing'.
But what is preventing continuous character recreation?
Massed disposable 'free' sidewinders on a popular starting station undock, a third party waiting to scoop. Delete and recreate commanders rather than pay the 'fine'. If not that, it'll be some other cunning workaround

The clean 3rd party can also kill the offender and take the bounty, makes it a whole industry....

G

 

[Paulo_B27]

Coolio

@ Erimus - Sounds perfect and very well thought out.

 

[Barns]

...
[*]No artificial choke points (like jump gates) forcing people together to interact and fight.

Unless it's been changed then I don't believe this is true. As I understand it, the first person jumping into a system creates the "entry point" for all further jumps into that system, until there are no players left there at which point it's cleared again. So if a pirate jumps into a system, hangs around, any more player jumping in will arrive nearby to said pirate (with some degree of random distance yet to be determined).

It's explicitly (FD said so at the time) designed this way to encourage "player interaction" i.e. PvP.

I don't like it.

 

[Bolthammer]

I wasnt on last night, but from what your telling it sounds like good fun within the gamemechanics. Ofcourse you shuld be able to camp and put a station into quarantine. If you dont like it you shuld make a group and take them out or make a run for it. If FD intend for Zelada to be a safe zone i wuld think they added heavier patrols and defence. We know the final game will have billions of systems (some for all) and easier way for you to hide away from nasty people.

Sorry about your wife. Hope she will get better soon.

 

[Barns]

I wasnt on last night, but from what your telling it sounds like good fun within the gamemechanics.

Good fun for the ganker perhaps, not the gankee. An enjoyable game should be fun for both the victor and the loser. When you're jumped with no alternative destination or escape route and no chance to win, it's not "fun". It's selfish behavior on the part of the ganker with no consideration to the other party's "fun". If we approve of selfish me me me gaming, then fine, support this playstyle. I'd prefer it if we tried to play in a way that made the experience fun for everyone, though, especially when the options are very limited to escape undesirables (as in now, in alpha).

 

[Bolthammer]

Unless it's been changed then I don't believe this is true. As I understand it, the first person jumping into a system creates the "entry point" for all further jumps into that system, until there are no players left there at which point it's cleared again. So if a pirate jumps into a system, hangs around, any more player jumping in will arrive nearby to said pirate (with some degree of random distance yet to be determined).

It's explicitly (FD said so at the time) designed this way to encourage "player interaction" i.e. PvP.

I don't like it.

But then again some like it. I think you can pick some of the other 399 billion systems to do your buisness in. I think a few people worry to much about a problem that will be very small in the final game.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Thanks Delazure - Agree completely.

It's a game, should be fun right?

You just don't get it, do you?

Getting ganked is not fun for the player being ganked.

The real problem here is not so much the 'anything goes' thing. It's the 'anything goes and I'm going to do it where you cannot avoid it'. Testing griefing where the in-game defenses are not yet there (and we all know they are not there) is not testing, it is gratuitous griefing. It is also incredibly selfish. And hiding behind 'its just testing' or 'its an alpha anything goes' merely underlines how childish it is.

When A4 hits, and there are multiple space stations, then this sort of thing would cause much less of a rumpus, because those of us who do not want to play the silly games, can just ignore those that do, by going somewhere else. Doing it when there is just one station is indefensible.

 

[Barns]

But then again some like it. I think you can pick some of the other 399 billion systems to do your buisness in. I think a few people worry to much about a problem that will be very small in the final game.

Perhaps, but the point was that "no choke points" (an oft-stated thing) isn't really true. The current design will suffer from some of the problems that Eve has with its jump gates being camped by gank squads. The design is artificially clumping players to preferentially support one playstyle (PvP combat). Maybe it'll all come out in the balancing wash, perhaps the randomised distances will be large enough that escape will usually be possible for a trader jumping in, but I suspect based on apparent current FD thinking that PvP combat will be forced much of the time. Wait for the announcement of the ED equivalent of warp scramblers and nets.

Personally I think pirating should be an active pursuit where you go out and seek your prey, not lurk passively waiting for someone to jump to you. And if you and your gank squad want to blockade a whole system, the design shouldn't allow you to do this with just a handful of players - you should need dozens and dozens to cover every potential approach. Forcing everyone into a single entry point makes it too easy and passive for pirates.

 

[Bolthammer]

Good fun for the ganker perhaps, not the gankee. An enjoyable game should be fun for both the victor and the loser. When you're jumped with no alternative destination or escape route and no chance to win, it's not "fun". It's selfish behavior on the part of the ganker with no consideration to the other party's "fun". If we approve of selfish me me me gaming, then fine, support this playstyle. I'd prefer it if we tried to play in a way that made the experience fun for everyone, though, especially when the options are very limited to escape undesirables (as in now, in alpha).

Alpha is a different beast that final game. Agree. But then again I hope people will be able to make life miserable or hard for enemies and competitors. If you have the cash you shuld be able to hire bountyhunters or pirates looking for your enemies 24/7 untill your satisfied or out of cash. If you dislike this playstyle - then you shuld not have become a enemy or you shuld take your buisness out of the contested systems. I hope people can roleplay evil tranport moguls or just plain dictators holding systems.

My fondest memory in gameing is when im hunted by the badest players or im the process of finally getting revenge over some idiot whom killed me months before.

If people dislike these things there will be very safe systems and offline mode. So i see 0 problem.

There is no parallel between 1 station alpha vs full game. Alpha4 will bring even more outcry because I will be even easier to hunt and hide as pirate.

 

[Mobius]

im not one to really complain,, but this was beyond a joke in my eyes

3 (that I know of) users were guarding the station , and also following you in , I was the one ducking as you all came through the door way,, next thing I know they are blowing the crap out of me ,,

you should add these players to your KOS list,

 

[Barns]

When A4 hits, and there are multiple space stations, then this sort of thing would cause much less of a rumpus, because those of us who do not want to play the silly games, can just ignore those that do, by going somewhere else. Doing it when there is just one station is indefensible.

Only 5 systems in A4 according to the newsletter. I can bet they'll all get simultaneously blockaded easily enough by player groups of a certain inclination. Let's hope the stations have decent defenses at least with police patrols.

 

[Adept]

Are you going to be okay mate? Do you want some tissues to dry your eyes?

Hilarious! Honestly your post is making me chuckle.

This is a sand box game. You can do what you like.

You may want to check out David's Bafta speech. It doesn't look like he subscribes to the EVE version of sandbox, or griefers being allowed to "do what they like"

I'm frankly astonished to see that you seem to think there is some accomplishment in a 3 vs 1 gank against a totally unprepared target. Glorifying and finding fun in just pwning others in situations where there is no risk and no challenge suggests a rather grieferlike mentality.

 

[Barns]

I hope people will be able to make life miserable or hard for enemies and competitors.

Where is the fun in making life miserable for someone? A real person? Shouldn't you both be having fun? Why does it have to be at the expense of someone else's fun?

It's just a sad commentary on the human condition, I suppose.

 

[Bolthammer]

Only 5 systems in A4 according to the newsletter. I can bet they'll all get simultaneously blockaded easily enough by player groups of a certain inclination. Let's hope the stations have decent defenses at least with police patrols.

If they implement a chat im sure the truckpilots and asteroidhumpers can coordinate some sidewinder suicide on the evil people But dont forget that the few alpha systems will have endless range and shuld have multiple places to drop out of supercruise near. So these few systems will in my view have thousands of places to go if i understand the game correctly. The evil people cant be everywhere.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Perhaps, but the point was that "no choke points" (an oft-stated thing) isn't really true. The current design will suffer from some of the problems that Eve has with its jump gates being camped by gank squads. The design is artificially clumping players to preferentially support one playstyle (PvP combat). Maybe it'll all come out in the balancing wash, perhaps the randomised distances will be large enough that escape will usually be possible for a trader jumping in, but I suspect based on apparent current FD thinking that PvP combat will be forced much of the time. Wait for the announcement of the ED equivalent of warp scramblers and nets.

A possible workaround to that is then to only jump into a lawless system once you've dropped into a solo group. You'll never meet any waiting player pirates. Just NPCs. The point is if someone is determined to avoid pvp yet still wants to experience other multiplayer interactions there are a few extra 'safety nets' that players can implement if they plan ahead. I still think the sheer size of the gameworld Frontier are giving us would have been enough though, but that's just me

Personally I think pirating should be an active pursuit where you go out and seek your prey, not lurk passively waiting for someone to jump to you. And if you and your gank squad want to blockade a whole system, the design shouldn't allow you to do this with just a handful of players - you should need dozens and dozens to cover every potential approach. Forcing everyone into a single entry point makes it too easy and passive for pirates.

I agree. And I think when travelers get wise to these sorts of tactics the solo group will be used extensively to bypass them. Hopefully that will force pirates to give up on passive wait and bait tactics.

The early days of the game are going to be interesting times as player behavior evolves and different play styles emerge :smilie:

 

[Barns]

If they implement a chat im sure the truckpilots and asteroidhumpers can coordinate some sidewinder suicide on the evil people But dont forget that the few alpha systems will have endless range and shuld have multiple places to drop out of supercruise near. So these few systems will in my view have thousands of places to go if i understand the game correctly. The evil people cant be everywhere.

Depends how the system entry point thing is implemented in A4. If everyone drops out of hyperspace at the same point (or nearby), camping spawn points will be trivial for evildoers. Fingers crossed it's done randomly in a sphere though, which would make it very hard to blockade a system.

My bet is (and we'll hopefully soon see how far wrong I am) : everyone arrives into a current "instance" in a system, or creates a new one if there are none or all are full. Which means if the only people in a system is Johnny Pirate and his mates, and FluffyTrader jumps in, he's guaranteed to land near the pirates.

 

[Bolthammer]

Where is the fun in making life miserable for someone? A real person? Shouldn't you both be having fun? Why does it have to be at the expense of someone else's fun?

It's just a sad commentary on the human condition, I suppose.

I think you put to much into my words. But im not playing the game to satisfy peoples needs or make them happy. Its a game where i live out wierd fantasies, play nice or total bad guy. We might end up as best friends ingame, you might also destroy my cargo containers by accident and end on my kill list.

 

[Barns]

A possible workaround to that is then to only jump into a lawless system once you've dropped into a solo group.

This is exactly what I expect many players to do. However we don't yet know the mechanics of how you switch groups. It's entirey possible (probable, I'd say) that you can only switch groups at login time. Which would mean logging out and back in again to go from "All" to "Solo". You can probably only log out safely at a station, making the whole process quite cumbersome.

Still, preferable to being ganked

 

[Barns]

I think you put to much into my words.

You did say "I hope people will be able to make life miserable..." - what was I supposed to read into that? Personally I hope it's impossible for any player to make life "miserable" for another player. Cause frustration, losses, yes of course, but not "misery". That's too reminiscent of Eve and its whole "HTFU" attitude which, frankly, stinks of jerk-dom.