PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

[PANTHER STARFORCE]

As a Mobius member and PVE'r I think the biggest problem is the false misconception that all we want is some soft cuddly safe-space for us to curl up and cry in when we log in to ELITE. Couldn't be further from the truth. People have joined the Mobius movement because the game is broken. There is virtually no balance to crime-vs-punishment... as has been stated by countless other threads.

I think the core PVE group isn't scared of death or challenge... we're simply frustrated by the lack of realism and balance.

For example... If you're a notorious murderer... eventually your picture should be posted at the nav beacon across every star in civilized space and every law-man & vigilante should be gunning for you. You should have a bounty in the millions. And honestly... as someone playing the crazed murderer... I can see this being prestigious. I mean what psychopath wouldn't want to be able to brag on the forums that they are THE MOST WANTED. But of course... being a psycho in career... should come with challenges. Like trying to find places to land... period. Or not having 30 money hungry CMDRs chasing you across the stars to get that sweet multi-mil bounty. There's none of this in ELITE and THAT IS GAME BREAKING. The simulation is simply devoid of massive portions of the critical loop required to be complete. It's half done and frustrating.

The game needs balance on both sides... There needs to be a real risk to people who want to make a career out of the dark side of ELITE. But also real reward that comes as notoriety, Bounties and sky high wanted levels. Heck... I might even consider becoming a space-B4ST4RD if everytime I jumped in to a high-wealth/population system a capital ship warped in to intercept me Boss Status!

I think it's probably boring for players on both sides of the fence right now. I mean I'm not a sociopath, but I just can't imagine hanging out by a nav point with a corvette and slagging noobs in sidewinders all day is a white knuckle thrill ride.

-EJIRO

 

[Agony_Aunt]

There is nothing FDEV can do that will make players play back in Open ( the ones who do want to play with others ) all the time they have access to other risk free modes that offer equal rewards.

I wonder if FDEV realise this and if this is the case, why bother wasting time and resources?

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Its highly possible, although it doesn't apply to everyone. But yeah, perhaps in a majority of cases its true.

FD should realize this, maybe this is understood with Sandro's recent comments. He doesn't expect people to switch modes for those who are dedicated to group/solo, he hopes it will cause people who normally play in open to stop switching modes to achieve PP goals. I think he also fails to understand the mentality here of the players, and if implemented it will not have the desired result.... but i diverge, no need to bring that topic here.

Agony
The Voice of Aunty

 

[Jypson]

Its highly possible, although it doesn't apply to everyone. But yeah, perhaps in a majority of cases its true.

FD should realize this, maybe this is understood with Sandro's recent comments. He doesn't expect people to switch modes for those who are dedicated to group/solo, he hopes it will cause people who normally play in open to stop switching modes to achieve PP goals. I think he also fails to understand the mentality here of the players, and if implemented it will not have the desired result.... but i diverge, no need to bring that topic here.

Agony
The Voice of Aunty

[squeeeee]

 

[Chaz]

The answers are what I expected, there have been some excellent mechanic suggestions but to summarise what I took from the thread.

There is nothing FDEV can do that will make players play back in Open ( the ones who do want to play with others ) all the time they have access to other risk free modes that offer equal rewards.

If PvE'ers aren't likely to play in Open then why does that matter to you that we are playing in a "risk free" mode as you put it and are getting equal "rewards". What does it matter to you how well I do at trading or improving my naval rank with a faction, so that I can A rate an Anaconda or finally get access to a Cutter. If I'm never going to play in Open and use it against you, why should you care? You seem to be under the delusion that people who play in solo or the Mobius group are some how in direct competition with you. Only you can't do anything about it, and that really eats you up.

Your "I hunt players." list is pretty much a summary of the kind of people I don't want to spend my leisure time with. Why would I want to go out of my way and spend my free time with unpleasant people?

 

[Alanpurus]

I only play Open when I am a very long way from the Bubble. I would play Open in inhabited space if there was a good chance of being able to get effective help quickly in the event of an interdiction. The sheer frustration of being targeted and killed by groups of CMDRs actually makes me shake with resentment and anger, as there is no defence against three or four ships who immediately zap and ram you to wipe out your shield, and then blast you to bits before you literally have a chance to do anything, even run away. The whole game structure favours the aggressor in every way, because their intent is to attack the defenceless as an aggressive group. There's simply no defence against people who play the game like that, and the OP suggests that he is not at all perturbed by having bounties in the millions on him, so that's not an issue. I'm afraid I am very much of the opinion that persistent player-murderers should be reduced to stock Sideys, or be restricted from jumping out of their last victim's system until they get hunted down and killed themselves.

So I play in Private to have a better chance to live against single NPC interdictors. To answer the OP, there is NOTHING you can do to get me to turn up and be killed by the likes of you. You must be several kinds of insane to actually think anyone would take you up on that, cos you clearly don't care about bounties, fines or landing restrictions.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

It's a question a lot of people are asking, and have been for a while now..

It is in the interest of everyone, regardless of game style/mode to have a credible crime and punishment system in place..

Derisory comments do nothing to further the discussion..

I don't know why but someone's motivation are super helpful to me when giving someone data. If the person has genuine reasons for asking a question I'll be inclined to answer. When I discovered this guy is just a ganker I lost all interest in helping him out. It's just the law of consequences.

 

[askavir]

Genuinely surprised no one has said I cheat, combat log or wont fight unless i am in a wing yet.
That is the usual goto but kudos for your attempts, i rate it 5/7. ( I will even rep them )

I believe I was pretty clear about my intentions but people wishing to stand on their ickle soap boxes and bleat about how I just grief, just to try and impress others on this forum with their deep knowledge of my play style is awesome. It shows that whatever I am doing in game, I am doing it right!

Actually along the thread there were quite a few valid suggestions by several people.

I was one of those who offered a suggestion that was neither too complicated nor it involved some kind of "magic" punishments.

My idea is simple and involves only 2 steps:

1 - The value of the bounty should scale to the value of the insurance rebuy of destroyed ships, regardless of such destroyed ships are players or NPCs (same rules should apply for everyone). I'm sure you can agree that the bounty values are absolutely ridiculous right now. Assault of theft without resulting in ship destruction should keep having lower bounty penalties.

2 - If player with a bounty is destroyed by a bounty-hunter after being identified as wanted, in a system where and when the bounty is active, the bounty value is deducted from the felon's credit account. No magic nor instant punishments, bounty hunters will still have to work for their prize (and with really worthy bounties, perhaps they will, more action for you and your mates), and killing now has a potential downside to it instead of being the current red carpet that does not benefit anyone in the long run.

Seems fair and realistic to me.

Dealing potential penalties to felons per se won't bring players back to open, but if such mechanics lower the amount of kills and instead replace them mostly by actual piracy, maybe current or new open players will stick around more.

 

[KaizoMK]

I don't know why but someone's motivation are super helpful to me when giving someone data. If the person has genuine reasons for asking a question I'll be inclined to answer. When I discovered this guy is just a ganker I lost all interest in helping him out. It's just the law of consequences.

Then help yourself, or help the game.

 

[Majinvash]

Actually along the thread there were quite a few valid suggestions, so I have to assume that you either didn't read or didn't care much.

I was one of those who offered a suggestion that was neither too complicated nor it involved some kind of "magic" punishments.

My idea is simple and involves only 2 steps:

1 - The value of the bounty should scale to the value of the insurance rebuy of destroyed ships, regardless of such destroyed ships are players or NPCs (same rules should apply for everyone). I'm sure you can agree that the bounty values are absolutely ridiculous right now. Assault of theft without resulting in ship destruction should keep having lower bounty penalties.

2 - If player with a bounty is destroyed by a bounty-hunter after being identified as wanted, in a system where and when the bounty is active, the bounty value is deducted from the felon's credit account. No magic nor instant punishments, bounty hunters will still have to work for their prize (and with really worthy bounties, perhaps they will, more action for you and your mates), and killing now has a potential downside to it instead of being the current red carpet that does not benefit anyone in the long run.

Seems fair and realistic to me.

Thank you for your kind words but I read every single reply.

To respond directly

Both of the points you have made wouldn't make a difference in ganking, it's too hard to die if you are good and credits are irrelevant.
I can make 60mil in just over an hour at Robigo and escape from any situation I wish to.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Tetryl]

1 - The value of the bounty should scale to the value of the insurance rebuy of destroyed ships, regardless of such destroyed ships are players or NPCs (same rules should apply for everyone). I'm sure you can agree that the bounty values are absolutely ridiculous right now. Assault of theft without resulting in ship destruction should keep having lower bounty penalties.

Wouldn't that encourage low-consequence ganking of newbie Sidewinders?

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Then help yourself, or help the game.

That's the problem, I'm not sure if it's helping the game to give information to someone that seeks to manipulate it for their own ends.

 

[tailesin]

Its highly possible, although it doesn't apply to everyone. But yeah, perhaps in a majority of cases its true.

FD should realize this, maybe this is understood with Sandro's recent comments. He doesn't expect people to switch modes for those who are dedicated to group/solo, he hopes it will cause people who normally play in open to stop switching modes to achieve PP goals. I think he also fails to understand the mentality here of the players, and if implemented it will not have the desired result.... but i diverge, no need to bring that topic here.

Agony
The Voice of Aunty

Genuinely surprised no one has said I cheat, combat log or wont fight unless i am in a wing yet....

<I Chopped it down - I'm not worried about motivations really, it's not relevant to this discussion - Majinvash, you started a decent conversation, don't rise to the "other" folk>

Back on Topic.

The answers are what I expected, there have been some excellent mechanic suggestions but to summarise what I took from the thread.

There is nothing FDEV can do that will make players play back in Open ( the ones who do want to play with others ) all the time they have access to other risk free modes that offer equal rewards.

I wonder if FDEV realise this and if this is the case, why bother wasting time and resources?

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Guys - I think you're both wrong, I also think that Sandro's recent comments more refer to the forcing of people over to open only for PP. A change in PP like he suggested won't get people to move, there is not enough there. I could go through the list again, but that's a bit redundant. So just making it harder to identify players from the crowd (my points 1, 2 & 3 - I think, my brain is not working today) would pull some people back and other "Crime and Punishment" mechanics would pull more back. I have always said that I would play in open more if there was a balanced system, because it has to work for both sides. I would even be in favor of separating the player characters in open and solo/private if a good system was introduced - by that I mean a date split (not pick one or the other), what you have on that date is what's copied.

Is a change going to happen? The one thing that we can take for Sandro's comments is that there will be changes to PP for now, but really just PP. Not go over what he said as really it's only partially relevant to this, but I don't think all he said will change much even to what it's aimed at (5C and Sabotage). That however is for a different thread.

I might have too much faith in the player base in ED, but I hope sensible changes are made and if so the players will return to open......

The Voice of the "Kickstarter Brigade

 

[askavir]

Wouldn't that encourage low-consequence ganking of newbie Sidewinders?

Well we can't have sunshine and rain at the same time.

A destroyed T9 or Cutter faces a far, far bigger loss than the guy in the loaned sidewinder... So the deterrent should scale accordingly.

Maybe we could have a somewhat harsh base bounty for killing, that would then increase according to the rebuy cost of destroyed ships. How's that?

 

[KaizoMK]

That's the problem, I'm not sure if it's helping the game to give information to someone that seeks to manipulate it for their own ends.

Don't insult FD like that.

 

[Querty Out]

...
There is nothing FDEV can do that will make players play back in Open ( the ones who do want to play with others ) all the time they have access to other risk free modes that offer equal rewards.
...

That's a bit pessimistic. You may not get the players that just want to play Solo back into Open but there are many that mix modes or are sitting on the fence. These are the ones that may move to Open (or choose Open more often) with some incentives from FDev. I'd even go as far as accepting a PVE flag worked in lore wise somehow as a possible solution. At least you'll have a lively Open universe. You can then work on some incentives to encourage switching the PVE flag off; that will be a can of worms though. Gluttony Fang already posted his link earlier; there are some good ideas in his doc.

 

[Majinvash]

That's a bit pessimistic. You may not get the players that just want to play Solo back into Open but there are many that mix modes or are sitting on the fence. These are the ones that may move to Open (or choose Open more often) with some incentives from FDev. I'd even go as far as accepting a PVE flag worked in lore wise somehow as a possible solution. At least you'll have a lively Open universe. You can then work on some incentives to encourage switching the PVE flag off; that will be a can of worms though. Gluttony Fang already posted his link earlier; there are some good ideas in his doc.

But you are agreeing with what I am saying sorta.

Unless there is a carrot to playing in Open, people wont come back.
There is no punishment for crime, short of putting the offender back into a sidewinder. That is big enough to "scare" player killers. I know this, I am one.
So lets say that give us HUGE fines, for being naughty. NO drama, It would have to be balanced to allow for players to be criminals and making credits is easy.
That coupled with the incredible ease at which you can escape any situation and how fast you can kill a non PVP ship.
What ever they do, the risk will be higher than the safer modes.
Safer modes that give the exact same rewards. As we know no one "wants" to be a victim of crime, why would they allow that option IF there is a safe alternative?
That is the failure of the game design.
IF there was a bonus for playing in open, people might see that bonus balances out the increased risk.
FDEV know this by dropping the bomb today that they want to buff PP in open. Its a great start.
But imagine the poop storm if they then say you get a % bonus on all activities in Open.

The arguments about this game are circular, the threads and talks of punishments are repeated and stated in a variety of different ways.
Although many are great ideas. Just wont stop player killers and make Open safe enough to risk going into it without a bonus for doing so.
New players come in, they make the same posts we made a year ago, people make the same arguments about why its that way and how it must never change.

If you and I are still playing this game in a years time, if they haven't change the mode hoping or given incentive to balance the risk of Open.
New players will still be amazed that it exists as a concept and very quickly realise that if they want to make money, they can do it without ANY chance of a player attacking them. Their only challenge being NPC's. NPC's that they can never make too taxing because of the poop storm that would open up with terrible players.

As always, I cannot make a statement of comment on this game without it coming back to Open vs Solo. Its impossible because THAT is the cause of so many issues.
Then good posts get merged and the circle starts again.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[tailesin]

That's a bit pessimistic. You may not get the players that just want to play Solo back into Open but there are many that mix modes or are sitting on the fence. These are the ones that may move to Open (or choose Open more often) with some incentives from FDev. I'd even go as far as accepting a PVE flag worked in lore wise somehow as a possible solution. At least you'll have a lively Open universe. You can then work on some incentives to encourage switching the PVE flag off; that will be a can of worms though. Gluttony Fang already posted his link earlier; there are some good ideas in his doc.

I really can't say how strongly I agree with this - It seems like you guys have given up in which case just cut the two games (for want of a better explanation, because in effect it is two game) apart now and be done with it. Is that really what everyone wants? It is what FD wants? I can't believe either of those two and if I wrong then it's a very very sad day..............

 

[xXCheeChowXx]

I remember when I started playing there were people with bounties in the billions, if I am not mistaken, If I am, there were bounties in the 100's of millions for sure.....What was the reason for the bounty cap of a million?

 

[Trafalgar Law]

I remember when I started playing there were people with bounties in the billions, if I am not mistaken, If I am, there were bounties in the 100's of millions for sure.....What was the reason for the bounty cap of a million?

I heard that the gold sellers were using the huge bounties to transfer credits to other players i.e. build up a big bounty, get killed by the relevant player at a pre-arranged location. So Frontier capped the bounties.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Okay, if you want players in Open then there has to be real consequences for those who commit the act of murder as that seems to be the recurring issue players have playing in it.
Having this would deter prospective "gankers" from being able to act as they currently can...as in no penalty.
Murder is murder and should have the most response from the police that is possible. This would involve that players who actively engage in acts of murder to be hounded out of systems, or even A Power's territory once their notoriety reaches a certain level. But basically, it starts from when the first murder is committed. Do it in a Powers territory too much and you'll find yourself hounded in every system they control.
So, how to do this:
Well, there are wings of multiple numbers of NPC Sidewinders, 8 is the most I've seen but I've heard more, but what if they became Condas, FAS's etc...would that not be enough to deter the player killing community that it's not a wise choice of action?
A player wing can only do 4 so it's entirely possible and even if the PK'ing wing fends off one, for no reward, they just keep on coming and things only get worse.
I remember what happened when you shot at a station in 1984 Elite, same should happen in this game as in they just kept on coming...especially considering you can be killed by means of a parking violation.

This would allow pirates to still pirate as long as they are only interested in getting the cargo and not killing the player. Sure, they may be "wanted" and a target of opportunity but it would allow them to exist without too much aggression against them, as long as they don't commit murder.

As far as penalties against the "bad guy", it can't be like it currently exists as it's far too easily avoided. It should be that you are flagged as bad until you pay hefty reparations and / or because you are involved in a high risk profession that your insurance costs go through the roof. The secret to Piracy should be that you get to steal cargo without killing another player. That should be the game as far as drawing as little attention to yourself, by way of fines which can be paid off, yet still be stealing things successfully. There should be a response against this but not to the levels of if any PK'ing goes on.

If you lose the plot and start killing things then the law and far harsher penalties await. It's not difficult to disable a ship and steal it's candy without destroying it and there's good gameplay in that, in all modes.

There should be exceptions. Control systems where PP is viable would be one unless that can be seperated in some way, general anarchy systems with no factions and also systems controlled by an anarchic style of Government.

If you're legit and trading, these would be the systems you would avoid and they are easily identified if you make the effort to look.