PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

As someone who mostly plays in solo and mobius, but keeps an open mind: what is in it for me? Every time I get interdicted (especially if I'm flying the kind of juicy target a pirate would want) I risk losing quite a few million in uninsurable cargo because the "pirate" is actually a murder hobo - and as we've seen recently, there are few enough real pirates that when one does show up, it merits a post on Reddit. If real piracy was commonplace, that would not happen. For people like myself to want to play the sheep in this game, there has to be some guarantee built into it that the worst that would happen is that I get my drives and cargo hatch shot out, and that I lose some profits. That also has to be balanced by some incentive other than an adrenaline rush, so overall it's worth my while to risk it.
 
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A few to kick off:

1) Several wanted levels increasing in severity, linked to consequences;
2) Increased rebuy costs with wanted level;
3) Possibility of replacement ships not being fitted with weapons / FSD-Interdictors - the Pilots' Federation may not allow wanted pilots to receive such replacement equipment fitted to their replacement ship.
4) Increasing police response with wanted level;
5) Removal of docking privileges in Minor Faction / Power / Major Faction stations and bases (escalating depending on wanted level);

Yes please.
 
I completely agree with those who say that punishment isn't important. The only level of punishment for a player killer that I would find acceptable under the present circumstances would be one that stopped them from doing it at all.

What I care about is having my game progress halted or set back to amuse someone else. The rebuy on my Cutter is around 20 million. Add 10 million credits worth of cargo and that adds up to about 3-4 hours trading. I'm not going to trade for 3 hours in order to provide entertainment for a psychopath. Same with BH. My Python rebuy amounts to at least a couple of hours of RES play. Add the bounties I'll lose if I get killed and we're back to the 3-4 hours setback.

On the Hutton Orbital community goal I decided to take part in Open as it was very much a joint effort. I spent ages preparing for it, I fitted out the Anaconda I had at the time for trade, flew all the way there, spent several hours being filled with mugs by others doing the goal, then halfway to the destination I was attacked by another Anaconda that was set up for killing. My low shields lasted for a few seconds and then I was looking at the rebuy screen. All that work, both on my part and on those who had filled my hold gone to waste, just so that Johhny McPewpew could feel a few moments seal clubbing satisfaction. I haven't been into Open since and am unlikely to again.

In all the best PvP games you die, you respawn, you continue. I used to be heavily into Battlefield 1942. I never minded being killed in that game because I just respawned back at base, got back into my Spitfire or my tank and carried on.

If being killed by another player just meant that I went back to the last station I was at with no rebuy and retaining the cargo or bounties I was carrying and I'd happily play in open. As it is it's solo or Mobius all the way for me. Who cares what bounties the killer gets? Not me.

Rebuys are fine if my death is due to my own mistake. If I boost into an asteroid or fly into a sun then it's my own fault, I'll quietly mutter some choice words and then get on with my game, but I'm not going to put myself into the hands of a seal clubber.
 
I am afraid that the PVPer is only interested in killing other players, not in any negotiation and I doubt interested in the long term future of this game as they will go on to something else that gives them a new buzz.
This results in other types of play moving away from open and so the pirates have no players to pirate other than PVPers.
I am interested in all play styles of the game and find Möbius a little empty compared with open, but I am staying away from open until it gets some attention by FD.
If Wings were suspended I would go back as I would stand a chance against one PVPer but not four which is what happens, why does this happen, because they do not want you to get away they are only interested in the kill.
 
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Sounds overall like people want those who commit the worst offence of destroying a player (not npc) who is not a legitimate target, as in not flagged as a specific mission objective or not wanted, to effectively be made an Outlaw.

The consequence of this are then as they are outside of the law, nothing lawful will apply to them. No insurance discount rebuy (so its full price when they are destroyed) and no non-anarchy system support are two things that seem the most obvious.

And also missions available to other players to actively hunt outlaws could be added to encourage interaction.

But remember if you put this in place, you also have to have a method to remove the Outlaw status that is achievable in a reasonable manner for at the end of the day, the outlaw has paid for the game and the "sandbox experience" the same as any other player.
 
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Rebuys are fine if my death is due to my own mistake. If I boost into an asteroid or fly into a sun then it's my own fault, I'll quietly mutter some choice words and then get on with my game, but I'm not going to put myself into the hands of a seal clubber.

Which is when some folks come in to argue that it's 100% your fault you got killed if you went into space in any ship that isn't optimised for PvP...
 
I am afraid that the PVPer is only interested in killing other players, not in any negotiation and I doubt interested in the long term future of this game as they will go on to something else that gives them a new buzz.
This results in other types of play moving away from open and so the pirates have no players to pirate other than PVPers.
I am interested in all play styles of the game and find Möbius a little empty compared with open, but I am staying away from open until it gets some attention by FD.
If Wings were suspended I would go back as I would stand a chance against one PVPer but not four which is what happens, why does this happen, because they do not want you to get away they are only interested in the kill.

I'm personally interested in seeing piracy generally improve, and adding consequence to death will contribute to this somewhat.

Either way, regardless of another player's motives, I want to see the game improve.

Which is when some folks come in to argue that it's 100% your fault you got killed if you went into space in any ship that isn't optimised for PvP...

It's either the player's fault or the game designer's fault. If a player goes out into the world alone as a dedicated trader, it's his fault for dying since he went in underprepared. However, the fact that many ship configurations simply don't work under the current system is a glaring fault on FD's part.
 
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As someone who mostly plays in solo and mobius, but keeps an open mind: what is in it for me? Every time I get interdicted (especially if I'm flying the kind of juicy target a pirate would want) I risk losing quite a few million in uninsurable cargo because the "pirate" is actually a murder hobo - and as we've seen recently, there are few enough real pirates that when one does show up, it merits a post on Reddit. If real piracy was commonplace, that would not happen. For people like myself to want to play the sheep in this game, there has to be some guarantee built into it that the worst that would happen is that I get my drives and cargo hatch shot out, and that I lose some profits. That also has to be balanced by some incentive other than an adrenaline rush, so overall it's worth my while to risk it.

The risk of destruction should always exist in this game, there should never be any guaruntees that you wont be killed. FDs biggest mistake was making the AI of NPCs so poor that solo became easy mode by default, encouraging non-combat players to flock to it to offset risk.
Hopefully FD's AI improvements will make the risk equal in solo, groups and open, so this particular argument won't exist anymore. Mode choice shouldn't be about risk-evasion.
 
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The risk of destruction should always exist in this game, there should never be any guaruntees that you wont be killed. FDs biggest mistake was making the AI of NPCs so poor that solo became easy mode by default, encouraging non-combat players to flock to it to offset risk.
Hopefully FD's AI improvements will make the risk equal in solo, groups and open, so this particular argument won't exist anymore. Mode choice shouldn't be about risk-evasion.

Yes, mode choice should be about avoiding or having interaction with other players, NOT about any advantages it gives, which is exactly the state of the modes now. People play Solo or Group because it's safe, excuse me, what? The NPCs are the same in all 3 modes, they shouldn't be SAFE in any mode, there should always be a real and present threat of destruction, but there isn't. People are flying around in ships without shields in Solo and Group because they don't fear the NPCS, and that's just all kinds of messed up.

Here's to hoping the NPC scripting improvements actually do something to make the mode choice purely about social interaction, like it's supposed to be.
 
Yes, mode choice should be about avoiding or having interaction with other players, NOT about any advantages it gives, which is exactly the state of the modes now. People play Solo or Group because it's safe, excuse me, what? The NPCs are the same in all 3 modes, they shouldn't be SAFE in any mode, there should always be a real and present threat of destruction, but there isn't. People are flying around in ships without shields in Solo and Group because they don't fear the NPCS, and that's just all kinds of messed up.

Here's to hoping the NPC scripting improvements actually do something to make the mode choice purely about social interaction, like it's supposed to be.

I wasn't aware that you interviewed every single Solo/PG player and came to this conclusion. Do you have a source to support your statement, or are you just throwing around bogus accusations? Here is a source for you, I play solo/PG because I do NOT want PvP. Not only is PvP extremely unbalanced and unfair, it's also a total risk, zero reward system for anyone not doing strictly combat. ANYONE doing trading, exploring, smuggling, mission running, or any other non combat oriented task in Open is at total risk while offering absolutely zero reward for engaging in PvP, especially unwanted PvP. This is why, I guarantee, that most people who play in Solo/PG do so, it's not a run away scared, easy mode, get away free game mode, it's a mathematically logical and intelligent self preservation against unfair odds choice. The same reason you don't get into a boxing match with a Tiger, or a running match with a Cheetah, is the same reason many people, I'm sure, stay in Solo/PG, because it's a guaranteed loss to go to against it. Just because the title says Dangerous, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun, and obviously Open isn't fun to most people who play, otherwise, a LOT more people would be in Open.
 
If you attack and destroy someone out right for absolutely no reason then:
1. The now wanted criminal should have exactly the amount of a new ship, equal to the player's that they just destroyed, removed from their account and put in theirs. If they don't have it then a percentage is taken off of all their new transactions and given back.Think of it as garnishing your wages.Plus an active criminal record for that jurisdiction.Plus the fine.
Any new violations increases the fines. If you try to avoid the paying fines for murder a galactic police force comes after you.
2. This doesn't mean you can't destroy another player, just that there has to be a logical reason to it.IE:No waiting at a pad and destroying players as they leave, Just because you wish to protest gameplay you don't like.
Hanging out in ervate and griefing new players in a conda.yada ,yada,yada.

Hit an offender in the pocket book. It seems to mean quite a lot to a lot of people, that bottom line.
 
I wasn't aware that you interviewed every single Solo/PG player and came to this conclusion. Do you have a source to support your statement, or are you just throwing around bogus accusations? Here is a source for you, I play solo/PG because I do NOT want PvP. Not only is PvP extremely unbalanced and unfair, it's also a total risk, zero reward system for anyone not doing strictly combat. ANYONE doing trading, exploring, smuggling, mission running, or any other non combat oriented task in Open is at total risk while offering absolutely zero reward for engaging in PvP, especially unwanted PvP. This is why, I guarantee, that most people who play in Solo/PG do so, it's not a run away scared, easy mode, get away free game mode, it's a mathematically logical and intelligent self preservation against unfair odds choice. The same reason you don't get into a boxing match with a Tiger, or a running match with a Cheetah, is the same reason many people, I'm sure, stay in Solo/PG, because it's a guaranteed loss to go to against it. Just because the title says Dangerous, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun, and obviously Open isn't fun to most people who play, otherwise, a LOT more people would be in Open.

So, they play in Solo/Group to be safe? That's what you just said, you realize that? ONLY Players are a danger to you, not NPCs, so you avoid other players. Excuse me, but the NPCs should be just as dangerous as the players, especially since you see so many more NPCs than players in Open. But you keep telling yourself that you don't fear the NPCs, only the players, and you don't play in Solo/Group to be safe....
 
So, they play in Solo/Group to be safe? That's what you just said, you realize that? ONLY Players are a danger to you, not NPCs, so you avoid other players. Excuse me, but the NPCs should be just as dangerous as the players, especially since you see so many more NPCs than players in Open. But you keep telling yourself that you don't fear the NPCs, only the players, and you don't play in Solo/Group to be safe....

lol, you people are over the top, I play solo/pg to avoid PvP, nothing else. Even if it were the most perfectly balanced game in the history of games, I still wouldn't play open. Why the hell don't you people get this? People simply DON'T WANT PVP. The fact that there is a zero reward, total risk system involved is just icing on the cake, one more incentive to KEEP me, and I assume many others, in solo, but it's far from the primary reason. What is the reward for killing another player? What is the reward for being killed by another player? What is the reason for killing/being killed by other players? The answers? Nothing. Nothing. None. It does indeed add a level of security to go to solo/pg, but it's not the reason why most do. Though, in my defense, it is absolutely 100% illogical to even play in Open if I am not looking for a player versus player fight.

You want NPC's to be just as "dangerous" as players? So you want to take 100% of the fun out of the game? You want T9's loaded with ~6 mill worth of cargo to be bombarded by 3 FDL's? a Corvette? A wing full of Anaconda's? You want ~30 mill re-buy + cargo Cutters to just be totally wrecked by wings of 3 or 4 NPC's, all with nearly zero chance of success for the victim just to take fun away? You want fully loaded combat Corvettes sitting in the middle of the Galaxy prepared to two shot the first Asp that comes along that spent 3 hours a day, every day for 4 months gathering exploration data? You want NPC's to sit outside of stations prepared to annihilate the first player ship to un-dock? This is what you want for the game? This is why there will remain such few players in open. It's not a safety concern, it's avoiding stupidity. #OPTIONALPVPINOPEN

And one last thing, I certainly do fear NPC's. It's a bit fearful when a wing of 3 Viper Mk III's interdict and drop in on my Asp while smuggling, followed by a couple security vessels and I just barely escape with 24% hull, or when an FDL with a wing of 2 Pythons attack me for my invisible cargo, or when that security eagle boost rams me while I'm half way out of the mail slot in my Corvette and he bounces off and dies, and the entire station and 8 other security vessels start firing. I have plenty a challenge in Solo.
 
Thank you for your kind words but I read every single reply.

To respond directly

Both of the points you have made wouldn't make a difference in ganking, it's too hard to die if you are good and credits are irrelevant.
I can make 60mil in just over an hour at Robigo and escape from any situation I wish to.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Well dying is currently too hard because no combat-minded skilled players will currently give a damn about hunting a player killer or killer wing for their 110k bounties while himself risking a multi-million rebuy.

If killers suddenly start floating around carrying 80 million credits bounties from whole sessions of wrecking expensive ships, perhaps this will change. We might actually see the birth of bounty-hunter groups.
 
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PvP'ers want excitement and the thrill of the hunt. So FD should give it to them. PvP should have a "battle agreement" stage where a CMDR transmits a battle invitation to another CMDR. If it's accepted, no harm no foul to either CMDR. If it's rejected and the CMDR still attacks he gets an assault charge. If he kills the CMDR, he gets a murder charge. If he gets killed, sucks to be him.

If a player wants to commit murder, then their status should be set to murderer and they should be treated as such. That means their name gets put on bulletin boards with a bounty on their heads, and System Security hunts them till their dead. Murderers should also be barred from insurance on their rebuy. You wanna kill people? Then accept the risk and consequence.

Hey, that sounds exciting to me.

B-b-buh-but what about rammer/griefers? Ah, glad you asked. Base the murder charge of the velocity of the ship. Whoever was going fastest is tagged the murderer. Easy-peasy.
B-b-buh-but what about people who intentionally fly in your line of fire? Yeah, you need to watch where you're shooting anyway so no help there.
B-b-buh-but what about Anarchy Systems? Hey, what happens in Anarchy stays in Anarchy.
 
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lol, you people are over the top, I play solo/pg to avoid PvP, nothing else. Even if it were the most perfectly balanced game in the history of games, I still wouldn't play open. Why the hell don't you people get this? People simply DON'T WANT PVP. The fact that there is a zero reward, total risk system involved is just icing on the cake, one more incentive to KEEP me, and I assume many others, in solo, but it's far from the primary reason. What is the reward for killing another player? What is the reward for being killed by another player? What is the reason for killing/being killed by other players? The answers? Nothing. Nothing. None. It does indeed add a level of security to go to solo/pg, but it's not the reason why most do. Though, in my defense, it is absolutely 100% illogical to even play in Open if I am not looking for a player versus player fight.

You want NPC's to be just as "dangerous" as players? So you want to take 100% of the fun out of the game? You want T9's loaded with ~6 mill worth of cargo to be bombarded by 3 FDL's? a Corvette? A wing full of Anaconda's? You want ~30 mill re-buy + cargo Cutters to just be totally wrecked by wings of 3 or 4 NPC's, all with nearly zero chance of success for the victim just to take fun away? You want fully loaded combat Corvettes sitting in the middle of the Galaxy prepared to two shot the first Asp that comes along that spent 3 hours a day, every day for 4 months gathering exploration data? You want NPC's to sit outside of stations prepared to annihilate the first player ship to un-dock? This is what you want for the game? This is why there will remain such few players in open. It's not a safety concern, it's avoiding stupidity. #OPTIONALPVPINOPEN

And one last thing, I certainly do fear NPC's. It's a bit fearful when a wing of 3 Viper Mk III's interdict and drop in on my Asp while smuggling, followed by a couple security vessels and I just barely escape with 24% hull, or when an FDL with a wing of 2 Pythons attack me for my invisible cargo, or when that security eagle boost rams me while I'm half way out of the mail slot in my Corvette and he bounces off and dies, and the entire station and 8 other security vessels start firing. I have plenty a challenge in Solo.

Struck a nerve huh...

Well dying is currently too hard because no combat-minded skilled players will currently give a damn about hunting a player killer or killer wing for their 110k bounties while himself risking a multi-million rebuy.

If killers suddenly start floating around carrying 80 million credits bounties from whole sessions of wrecking expensive ships, perhaps this will change. We might actually see the birth of bounty-hunter groups.

No, you'll see the exact same thing that happened when player bounties did get into the millions, people killing each other to get rich quick, which is why the bounties are so low now.

Proper crime and punishment won't make a bit of difference for most, they play Solo to avoid any other players, period, there's nothing you can do to that will change that, see BlueLumen's oh so eloquent response, see the people who constantly say there needs to be a PvE only Open, you won't remove that fear. Still needs to be in place, that way it will keep the gankers down a bit in Open, not much though, like Maj said, money ain't hard to come by at all, I'm not a PvPer. I'll do it, but it's not my thing in Elite: Dangerous, I'm an explorer, my sig should make that clear enough, unlike what BlueLumen thinks, and I do play in Open except when I'm out in the Black, hi res screenshots you know. I've lost 1 ship to PvP, my Anaconda no less, cost me a few minutes of lost time..oh no! I smashed multiple Pythons and Anacondas into planets and moons jacking around, the rebuy doesn't mean a thing to me, that's an hour of trading at most.

And then there's the little fact that pirates don't need other players to do their profession, NPCs don't tend to clog, don't put up much of a fight, and you can get rich off them at no risk, just takes a little bit, but hey, no clogging at all! Griefers need other players, that's it, not pirates, please do keep that in mind. This comes from someone who started off as a pirate in this game, players and NPCs both were my targets, never had a player stick around though, they all would just vanish, and I was clear in supercruise that I was a pirate and wanted cargo, so... Made plenty off NPCs though, got some decent bounties on my head, and sat outside Gorbachev station killing all the system authority ships until there were no more, there's only a limited amount of them you know. Then I docked at Gorbachev station, repaired, rearmed, left and stopped being a pirate, that's just so jacked up it's not funny. Made credits easy, no risk all, no repercussions for being the bad guy in the heart of the Federation, yeah, no.
 
Struck a nerve huh...
No, you'll see the exact same thing that happened when player bounties did get into the millions, people killing each other to get rich quick, which is why the bounties are so low now.

That's why the other part of my original post specifically stated that the bounty value, if claimed, should be deducted from the criminal's credits balance:

Actually along the thread there were quite a few valid suggestions by several people.

I was one of those who offered a suggestion that was neither too complicated nor it involved some kind of "magic" punishments.

My idea is simple and involves only 2 steps:

1 - The value of the bounty should scale to the value of the insurance rebuy of destroyed ships, regardless of such destroyed ships are players or NPCs (same rules should apply for everyone). I'm sure you can agree that the bounty values are absolutely ridiculous right now. Assault of theft without resulting in ship destruction should keep having lower bounty penalties.

2 - If player with a bounty is destroyed by a bounty-hunter after being identified as wanted, in a system where and when the bounty is active, the bounty value is deducted from the felon's credit account. No magic nor instant punishments, bounty hunters will still have to work for their prize (and with really worthy bounties, perhaps they will, more action for you and your mates), and killing now has a potential downside to it instead of being the current red carpet that does not benefit anyone in the long run.

Seems fair and realistic to me.

Dealing potential penalties to felons per se won't bring players back to open, but if such mechanics lower the amount of kills and instead replace them mostly by actual piracy, maybe current or new open players will stick around more.
 
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lol, you people are over the top, I play solo/pg to avoid PvP, nothing else. Even if it were the most perfectly balanced game in the history of games, I still wouldn't play open. Why the hell don't you people get this? People simply DON'T WANT PVP...............

Persistent, aren't they?

Having watched this same "discussion" go in circles in multiple threads I believe the answer is 2 part:
1) Some people refuse to "get it" as another form of griefing ("watch me wind these PvE people up" posts<"Your just scared of my skilz. Just get good and you'll be fine"> or <"Mobius is sucking the life out of Open">) Yes, somebody actually said that! and

2) others are apparently unable to process the concept that other people are not like them. Impressive that so many seem unable to process/accept a) other people are different from me and b) that's OK.
 
That's why the other part of my original post specifically stated that the bounty value, if claimed, should be deducted from the criminal's credits balance:

Won't work, easy to keep your balance low enough that you can't pay it, and don't forget, you don't have to be a pirate to get a bounty, many missions will cause that to happen, so Solo/Group players will get just as hurt by that. There's a reason it's not done, it's not as easy as it seems to deal with that problem, which is why no docking when wanted in the system, bounties carrying over to all systems, enough minor factions have you wanted, the major power does as well, which means no docking in that Power's space at all, gotta head to another Power who you haven't angered or Anarchy space to dock. NPC hit squad that come after you when your bounty gets beyond a certain amount, the only thing that removes the bounty at that point is for them to kill you, keeps people from farming the bounties. These are deterrents that work, not great, but they do keep the run of the mill prats under control. Can't stop them, not possible, they'll always exist, but this helps and it gives those who ARE wanting to be pirates the consequences of their actions, which are sadly lacking currently. Works for Solo/Group as well as Open you know, being a pirate, it's not an Open exclusive thing, so you have to meter the punishments with that in mind, they need to fit the situation, not be emotionally laden overreactions.
 
I hunt players. Even the worst player is more challenging than an NPC. Sometimes I "Boil them up" for LOL's but usually because they do not do as they are told.
I pirate players because they can interact and are unpredictable. Also and this is a given, they carry the best booty.
I usually pirate in a Python or Corvette, both have upwards of 64tonnes of cargo space and collector limpets.
I don't cargo scan, 1) it is a waste of a utility slot and 2) because 99% of the time if you hunt in the right systems, the only people there in trade ships are there to Sell Something. That 1% I sometimes make dance for me. ( True story )
I stream A LOT and can usually be seen stalking around Cemiese, regularly taking in full hauls of Abandoned Imperial Slaves.
While steaming you will see that my Empire rank is not high enough for a Cutter, you will also hear my distaste for Cutters as they are OP. ( A for effort Jediben )
Sometimes, I will fly with SDC and blow players up because there is nothing else to do. Also as previously stated NPC's are not a challenge to me.
I LOVED to fly my Viper and Dual PA Vulture, taking on the biggest baddest ships I can find because I love the challenge. ( Currently this isn't really viable because the current meta and hull reinforcements make it near impossible to inflict enough damage with either of these two ships.)
I have pirated in my FDL in The New Caribbean, which didn't have any cargo space. Simply to keep the notoriety of The Code in peoples minds. ( Seems to have worked )
I went in Mobius over a year ago and Pirated all the players I could find, it was a lot of fun. They are still salty over it.

Well, that's very honest and forthcoming of you. Given that the basic premise of the thread was to enquire as to what we'd require to make us want to come back to open so you can continue to get your kicks by doing all that to us, it might be more useful to ask YOU what sort of consequences and mechanisms would be required to make you STOP doing all that, since none of it seems terribly enjoyable from our perspective.

My prediction is that you'll tell us that there's nothing that would stop you from acting that way, to which I'd have to reply that in that case there's nothing that would make us want to include you in our game time. I'd be very happy to be wrong though, so do go right ahead.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Impressive that so many seem unable to process/accept a) other people are different from me and b) that's OK.

... and this is exactly why the USA is in danger of getting a "president trump".
 
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