PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

[Kristov]

> Honestly, I would be sold on SC if I could run my own server.

I've not paid too much attention to that aspect myself, quick search reveals... https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/286482/private-servers-offline-game second post has the info. And.. https://youtube.com/watch?v=yLjk2UvfFRA&t=16m43s

I think you'd love the game for your stories and videos, although the current state of the alpha is not conducive to that at all, the 3rd person view camera is just that in FPS or in your ship, there's no remote camera that you can control. Still, it's rather impressive visually, and the physics are very much what we have in Elite: Dangerous, funny that huh


Star Citizen is the persistent universe MMO, Squadron 42 is the single player/coop game that sits alongside the PU but isn't part of it, for anyone backing the game now, it's 2 separate things, I backed a while ago so I have complete access to both, and they did that because some folks JUST want the Squadron 42 game while others just want the Star Citizen MMO, not both...and because it makes them more money. I'm a fan of Chris Roberts and these products I've backed, I'm not stupid or blind however

 

[Jypson]

I've not paid too much attention to that aspect myself, quick search reveals... https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/286482/private-servers-offline-game second post has the info. And.. https://youtube.com/watch?v=yLjk2UvfFRA&t=16m43s

I think you'd love the game for your stories and videos, although the current state of the alpha is not conducive to that at all, the 3rd person view camera is just that in FPS or in your ship, there's no remote camera that you can control. Still, it's rather impressive visually, and the physics are very much what we have in Elite: Dangerous, funny that huh


Star Citizen is the persistent universe MMO, Squadron 42 is the single player/coop game that sits alongside the PU but isn't part of it, for anyone backing the game now, it's 2 separate things, I backed a while ago so I have complete access to both, and they did that because some folks JUST want the Squadron 42 game while others just want the Star Citizen MMO, not both...and because it makes them more money. I'm a fan of Chris Roberts and these products I've backed, I'm not stupid or blind however

That's great news! I backed it as well many moons ago, but was really only keeping an eye on Squadron 42 lately for obvious reasons More space games are a win in my book!

 

[Julio Montega]

A few to kick off:

1) Several wanted levels increasing in severity, linked to consequences;
2) Increased rebuy costs with wanted level;
3) Possibility of replacement ships not being fitted with weapons / FSD-Interdictors - the Pilots' Federation may not allow wanted pilots to receive such replacement equipment fitted to their replacement ship.
4) Increasing police response with wanted level;
5) Removal of docking privileges in Minor Faction / Power / Major Faction stations and bases (escalating depending on wanted level);

Let me bring in my perspective:
1) so same as Star Citizen? Would be O.K. for me if the stakes are Smuggling/Smuggling highly dangerous illicit cargo/ assault/ robbery/murder
2) increased rebuy cost with higher wanted level? Sorry nope, i am very friendly with a high tech mafia, why will they charge more funds, while i am friendly with them and they are independant?
3) see my answer to suggestion 2)
4) yes, totally needed, and cop-killers should be answered with special-forces
5) yes, tied to that special faction, that'd be o.k. and immersive

ow about adding in something for the players to appeal?
The bounty board is crap, it is neither actual nor very accurate.
Let us do the following:
CMDR a is a known murderer in system a) which belongs to a cluster of independant worlds or a major faction,
now the cops will be organised like real world cops, in districts.
They have the power to wake scan and track that player, posting every single sighting in that district
to a bounty board, that updates every 10 minutes.
This way you give player bounty hunters a lead, and can have rapid response teams ferreting out their hideouts,
if the CMDR a is a lazy and not foresightful person.

When CMDR a however fled to another district of law enforcement, the info-flow is slower, decreasing incremential with the distance to the
system of his killing spree (or whatever other act of unlawfulness he comitted).

Piracy is a key element of the game, it does not pay well, but sometimes you get a big fish.
Piracy curently is not very immersive, police response is rudimentary, hardly anybody is looking for you,
unless you kill start-winders without stopping.
It does not really affect the economy, and you don't get "prestige" with the mobsters for pulling off hard maneuvers,
neither can you get info on big convoys by hacking or waylaying and so on.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Let me bring in my perspective:
1) so same as Star Citizen? Would be O.K. for me if the stakes are Smuggling/Smuggling highly dangerous illicit cargo/ assault/ robbery/murder
2) increased rebuy cost with higher wanted level? Sorry nope, i am very friendly with a high tech mafia, why will they charge more funds, while i am friendly with them and they are independant?
3) see my answer to suggestion 2)
4) yes, totally needed, and cop-killers should be answered with special-forces
5) yes, tied to that special faction, that'd be o.k. and immersive

1) Same as the original game, 31 years ago (although a few more levels would be nice - three may not be enough) - if Star Citizen have chosen the same system....
2) Insurance and replacement ships provided by the Pilots' Federation - wanted level gained from killing other members could be taken into account when calculating insurance rebuy cost and outfitted items
3) As 2).
4) .... and MoM™ could let loose her Minions of War!
5) It could also cover rather large volumes of space, making making a run for it quite the challenge.

 

[gravityStar]

What would John Locke do?

I never played it, but I must admit, when this thread popped up, my first thought was "What would Ultima Online do?".

I wanted to explore that as a small thought exercise. I went to http://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/player/the-murder-system/ and got a nice high-level overview. I transliterated some of the terms and include an adapted text below:

Guide to understanding the Murder System

Attacking an innocent character in OpenPVP, or other area having the PVP ruleset, is considered an attempted murder. If the victim dies before the criminal flag timer ends, the attacker is guilty of murder, regardless of whether he actually administered the killing blow.

A murdered character can elect to report his murderer(s), reporting can take place some considerable time after the actual attack. If you are reported in five or more successive murders you will highlight Wanted to other players and come under the restrictions that apply to murderers. If this transformation occurs in a PVE ruleset area you will be instantly transported to OpenPVP.

Restrictions

You may not login to OpenPVE.
Lawful stations will not trade with you
You may not access missions for lawful organizations
Anyone can attack you without becoming criminal
Security forces will not protect you if you are attacked
You are not able to respawn in a station with a lawful government, instead you'll spawn in a nearby station with anarchy government.
Wing members will share your ‘Wanted’ status and are also freely attackable
Murderers can enter Lawful systems; however, should they choose to attack anyone within the lawful system, security forces will respond.

Murder Counts

There are two different kinds of murder counts, short term and long term. When you murder another player you receive both a short-term and a long-term murder count.

Short Term

Each 8 hours of playtime removes one murder count, unless a further murder is committed in that time.
Committing a further murder re-sets the timer on the partially-decayed count, plus adding a further count to the total.

Long Term

Each 40 hours of playtime removes one murder count, unless a further murder is committed in that time.
If you acquire 5 or more long-term murder counts you become “Wanted.”
Your long-term count is always equal to, or greater than, your short-term count.
Committing a further murder re-sets the timer on the partially-decayed count, plus adding a further count to the total.

Determining Your Status

To check your current ‘Wanted’ status check your status panel. It will list your short and long term counts.

Pardons

A forged pardon, obtained as rare salvage, will remove one murder count.

A Forged Executive Pardon is more powerful, and will remove all murder counts from a character. This item is bought from select lawful stations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mind you, I'm not advocating all of this, but for instance, I was surprised by the wingman thing. And I do think that needs to be included; Wingmen should share Wanted status.

 

[Zelos1983]

Yes, as I said, you have the option to play this online multiplayer game without seeing other players, but the fact remains that it's an online multiplayer game, that aspect never changes regardless of the mode you pick, David presented it as such from day 1 and that's something that is pushed in the advertising, online multiplayer game.

Wrong. It's a single player game with optional multi-player elements.
Plus, Elite has always been single player.

The compromises for multi-player have already ruined much of the game, therefore we must be vigilant that the minor issues in PvP do not cause further rule changes.

 

[Lateralus]

The current level of consequences for crime in Elite Dangerous is a bit like this;

[video=youtube_share;yMxY0Lxo_ow]https://youtu.be/yMxY0Lxo_ow[/video]

 

[jollyro]

Hi there, poor Pirate. I was playing always in open play until last Thursday. My Rank is not right in this forum, I am actually competent. I never went off a good fight, I even have killed the one or other pirate. I am doing mostly trade and I like to discover, do some missions and all want is having some fun. Last Thursday I was going to do some deliveries for the new community goal, hauling computer parts, not even expensive goods. When I arrived nearly at the station, I was intercepted by 4 (four) human pirates in Gunships in my A Class Asp. No word, no talking at all, just firing all together, before I could even react or my FSI got cooled down I was already exploded. Cost me 2.5 mill in insurance to get my ship back and I lost the freight, Data for about 150000 and some older bounties. Ok,      happens.
I was loading again, starting again and, guess what, got attacked by the same 4 idiots again. I was trying to avoid another death and lost, so I had already my weapons ready when they interdicted me, this time the going to zero trust even worked, so I was trying to escape and fought back. I opened fire on one of the gunboats and this actually lost its shield, was firing chaffs , reloading my shields with my new installed shield bank and was trying to escape. 3 seconds before I could jump one of the Gunboats rammed me , I lost my shields and all 4 started to fire. 2 seconds later my ship exploded again, I was really        this time, this has nothing to do with fair fight or having fun. I wanted to quit the game completely, I did not play for two days. Now I was back, but I will only go in solo mode. I don't wanna be a target for trigger wild idiots anymore. As long, as this is going on, I will not go back into open. I loose and this guys even gain in reputation for being such      ?
They need to figure something out for cases like that. Live and let live was always my credo, but I have trouble enough in real life, the game should be something like a little vacation from that, I do not want to have more of this in my little time off.

 

[DanaM]

Jollyro:
Sorry to hear about your meet up with the murder squad. Real PvP heroes, aren't they?

I do not want to have more of this in my little time off.

And there it is. The thing the "I'm a PvP Pro, Bro. Everyone should have to play in Open" crowd just can't get.

 

[Lateralus]

Hi there, poor Pirate. I was playing always in open play until last Thursday. My Rank is not right in this forum, I am actually competent. I never went off a good fight, I even have killed the one or other pirate. I am doing mostly trade and I like to discover, do some missions and all want is having some fun. Last Thursday I was going to do some deliveries for the new community goal, hauling computer parts, not even expensive goods. When I arrived nearly at the station, I was intercepted by 4 (four) human pirates in Gunships in my A Class Asp. No word, no talking at all, just firing all together, before I could even react or my FSI got cooled down I was already exploded. Cost me 2.5 mill in insurance to get my ship back and I lost the freight, Data for about 150000 and some older bounties. Ok, happens.
I was loading again, starting again and, guess what, got attacked by the same 4 idiots again. I was trying to avoid another death and lost, so I had already my weapons ready when they interdicted me, this time the going to zero trust even worked, so I was trying to escape and fought back. I opened fire on one of the gunboats and this actually lost its shield, was firing chaffs , reloading my shields with my new installed shield bank and was trying to escape. 3 seconds before I could jump one of the Gunboats rammed me , I lost my shields and all 4 started to fire. 2 seconds later my ship exploded again, I was really this time, this has nothing to do with fair fight or having fun. I wanted to quit the game completely, I did not play for two days. Now I was back, but I will only go in solo mode. I don't wanna be a target for trigger wild idiots anymore. As long, as this is going on, I will not go back into open. I loose and this guys even gain in reputation for being such ?
They need to figure something out for cases like that. Live and let live was always my credo, but I have trouble enough in real life, the game should be something like a little vacation from that, I do not want to have more of this in my little time off.

My condolences..

Thing is, what would you have done if they had been NPCs? Quit the game?

 

[Julio Montega]

1) Same as the original game, 31 years ago (although a few more levels would be nice - three may not be enough) - if Star Citizen have chosen the same system....
2) Insurance and replacement ships provided by the Pilots' Federation - wanted level gained from killing other members could be taken into account when calculating insurance rebuy cost and outfitted items
3) As 2).
4) .... and MoM™ could let loose her Minions of War!
5) It could also cover rather large volumes of space, making making a run for it quite the challenge.

1) True in the original Elite you were clean/wanted/fugitive. But what could you do to reduce your level? Hack? Look for Amnesty? Punishment without a means of rehabilitation is crap,
that only leads to "bounty free sidewinder boom"-maneuvers. Not very immersive.

2) The Pilot's Federation is located in Shinrarta Dezhra, right? There are dozens of systems on the blacklist who surely operate without involving the Pf, otherwise officials would have contacted
the Pf to cancel replacements for Pirates and Pirate clans beforehand.
Illegal operations do not require the Pf knowing about their business.
Don't get me wrong, i think vitamin c (connections) will even allow you to bribe federation officials or trade in favors at the imps,
not to speak of the mercantile alliance.
You see, i do not get, why rebuy should rise with wanted levels.
The only effect this would have is more trading for those who want to PvP and/or Pirate.
The fresh pilots would be batted aswell with a change in the current rebuy.

 

[Sandmann]

My condolences..

Thing is, what would you have done if they had been NPCs? Quit the game?

I've never been ganked by a wing of 4 npc's which have the coordination to stop me escaping, short of dropping into an SSS on my own, and even then you can still get away. Even if it happened they wouldn't hang around looking for the chance to do it again after the rebuy.

See, FD built scaling into the game and didn't include ganking because they wanted to see reasonable challenges not overpowering, unwinnable ones and for the game to be fun for the players, not annoying/upsetting. A small percentage of PvPers however don't share those goals, in fact their goals ARE to game unfairly and spoil it for other players which is why a large percentage of players want nothing to do with them.

So your question is irrelevant and misleading because that action could ONLY be achieved by players, not NPC's.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

3 stage ban. first warning 24 hours, second 3 days, 3rd, permanent. "Ruining" the game for other people is a real issue in the game and just one more reason why so many people play in PG/Solo. Intentionally ruining or "grieving" the game for other people should be a serious offense not taken lightly, after all, this is a business, this is how the company makes money, less money to be made when people are driven from the game.

Then likewise I propose any trader that refuses to hand over their cargo faces:

1. Their ship being stolen
2. Their bank account being stolen
3. Their life being ransomed
4. If nobody pays their ransom, they are executed and start over in a sidey with 100 cr

If you're going to make an unrealistic reply expect unrealistic consequences for the traders, too.

 

[BlueLumen]

Then likewise I propose any trader that refuses to hand over their cargo faces:

1. Their ship being stolen
2. Their bank account being stolen
3. Their life being ransomed
4. If nobody pays their ransom, they are executed and start over in a sidey with 100 cr

If you're going to make an unrealistic reply expect unrealistic consequences for the traders, too.

lol, you're not too... never mind. Being a pirate isn't being a "griefer", it surely can be implemented into the game without being bad like it is now. A "griefer" are the people sitting outside stations killing players as they exit for no reason, or the combat ships in the middle of the galaxy killing players who have done months of work, or the "killers" that interdict traders just to kill them, no pirating involved. I mean come on dude, get your act together, you couldn't have possibly not know that, or that, "that" is what was being referred to. The people preventing money from entering the pockets of Frontier should be banned, and those people are the ones chasing people away from the game just because they want to shoot other players just for s and giggles, they ruin the game, drive people away and lose Frontier money when those players don't buy the next "season" because they quit due to a bad experience.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

lol, you're not too... never mind. Being a pirate isn't being a "griefer", it surely can be implemented into the game without being bad like it is now. A "griefer" are the people sitting outside stations killing players as they exit for no reason, or the combat ships in the middle of the galaxy killing players who have done months of work, or the "killers" that interdict traders just to kill them, no pirating involved. I mean come on dude, get your act together, you couldn't have possibly not know that, or that, "that" is what was being referred to. The people preventing money from entering the pockets of Frontier should be banned, and those people are the ones chasing people away from the game just because they want to shoot other players just for s and giggles, they ruin the game, drive people away and lose Frontier money when those players don't buy the next "season" because they quit due to a bad experience.

I've heard pirates called lots of things around here... griefers, murderers, psycopathic basement dwelling rejects and more. I've seen some incredible things come out against them so it is impossible to know what one poster or another is thinking--except for a notorious few pvp haters.

The folks who "murder for lulz" in noob systems--or trader murderers (not pirates) can be bad for the game, but simultaneously the mentality of "I should be able to fly around and not be harmed and do as I please," is just as bad.

Back when I was a kid my dad taught me to beat up the bully and would even look the other way if I did it on the playground at school in front of teachers and got called into the principles office and sent home. He lived up to his word when I did. What Elite is missing is players who stand up for what they believe in (criminals being purged) by actually doing it in the game.

But back to killing players for lulz, the definition will vary by player. None will hold the same definition. Some think all piracy is bad. Some think bumping someone in a mail slot is an egregious violation and others think taking up a landing pad is worthy of execution. Do I kill nubs for lolz? Heck no! I think it is pretty lame. But the punishment should fit the crime.

These aren't real people being killed. They are digital spacecraft in a digital game that we play in our spare time. It's like playing cops and robbers in the back yard with toy guns.

 

[smiths121]

Open PvE player with occasional PvP (where I practice running).

I do not think changing Crime and Punishment will bring too many players back to open. Open is inherently more dangerous simply because it is the only mode where PvP Piracy and Bounty Hunting can occur. Communit y Goals, Rare Runs and Long Range Smuggling create nice target locations for pirates. As things stand, this sort of activity is best done in Private or Solo from a pure risk/reward point of view.

Piracy is very rare in open, being killed for laughs even rarer. This forum has done a lot to emphasise the risk of of Open perhaps greatly exaggerating the difference.

I am coming to the conclusion that Open needs more reward to offset the real risk and the exaggerated risk. I think CGs should have a bonus pay out if all activities for the CG are in open. Cargo (rares and normal) should have a better sell price if it was purchased and remained at all times in open on the trip.

Only by adjusting the risk/reward equation can you encourage PvE players back into open.

Simon

 

[Jack Schitt]

Thing is, what would you have done if they had been NPCs? Quit the game?

I can't speak for the OP but personally, yes; if the game ever starts throwing wings of four tanked, fully armed, ramming FASs against clean players in trade-build Asps without a very good reason (SSS, CZ, Anarchy systems if the new C&P changes come in) then I will quit the game.

 

[EdzUp]

I think it's daft that pvp or even Pve piracy and murder is allowed in systems that are in close proximity to main home systems.

How to fix this is simple, just work out the light year distance from the HQ system to the target system and this denotes the spawn chance of police, pirates and traders.

For example: Sol would have 75% chance of police, 24% chance of traders and 1% chance of pirates ( there is always some idiots).

However a anarchy system out on the fringes could have 80% chance of pirates, 15% chance of police and 5% chance of traders.

All calculated by distance and government type. Yes players can pirate, pvp etc but police response would be severe and Deadly if you pirate in or near a home system.

 

[Kristov]

I can't speak for the OP but personally, yes; if the game ever starts throwing wings of four tanked, fully armed, ramming FASs against clean players in trade-build Asps without a very good reason (SSS, CZ, Anarchy systems if the new C&P changes come in) then I will quit the game.

There was a good reason though, he was trying to fly supplies in to a CG, that's why a wing of 4 was there, blockading the CG. That's pretty much a given at any CG, there are always people who work against it. My 1 PvP death was delivering supplies to a CG, but my killer gave me fair warning and a chance to escape, I declined the offer, he won, damn good pilot, he earned it and I had fun, went back looking for a rematch but couldn't find him, couldn't find any of the blockaders after that. I personally don't like the people who just attack without any comms, that's just rather crappy to me, you should give everyone a chance to either turn around, drop cargo, or die, but I'm more the sporting type.

I would fully expect wings of gunships run by NPCs at a CG, same as I fully expect the players to show up that way, and FD should be tossing them in the mix for the CGs.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I would fully expect wings of gunships run by NPCs at a CG, same as I fully expect the players to show up that way, and FD should be tossing them in the mix for the CGs.

.... never forgetting that the game needs to be playable in Solo. Maybe when NPC Wing members are introduced then Wings of gunships at CGs could work out.