PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

[Derath]

Translation: Trade ships are useless in open coz the only thing open is for is PvP.

So, you're back. You didn't answer my question earlier I note.

Apologies i've not read all the thread as i've read its like many times before but just picked up on this.

trade ships are useless in open, even though they are the bread and butter of piracy I always used to posting on the forums about buffing them, freighters in space games just don't follow these sort of rules they are usually slow but tough, ED trade ships are slow and extremely vulnerable. The irony is if they ever make the AI semi effective this will become the case in solo as well and they will finally have to buff the trade ships . The terrible stats are everywhere a T9 needs a 8A shield to match a 4A on an FDL, 8A shields cost as much as a maxed out FDL (160mil)

The ship budgets in ED are just not thought out well enough, they pretend that they are trying to make them follow some logical path but they just don't, trade ships are just bad, cobra, asp, clipper, python, conda/cutter/corvette are all better than the tradeship variant and completely invalidate them, the only reason you fly a tradeship is because you can't afford the difference between what you are in, and what you should be flying right now.

 

[Lateralus]

All due respect but I have to disagree as well. You only have to look at any of the video interviews with DBOBE where they speak about griefing to see his naivety... "It's going to be primarily a cooperative game, pvp will happen of course but it will be rare and meaningful, and we'll have strong consequences to moderate antisocial behaviour". You can see how well that worked out - consequences are laughable and practically non-existent, open is all about pvp, and the only reason it's rare is coz all the victims have fled to mobius or solo because it's pretty much meaningless.

FD's view on that seems to have liberalised since those videos were made - they probably realised that 'griefing' is a very specific scenario and shouldn't just be applied to any situation where a clean player is killed by another player. Doing so would discourage players from becoming criminals, and FD clearly want a percentage of players to play the role of criminal (pirate, assassin, psycho etc).

One thing I do agree on though is that the criminality/consequences system is pants and needs to be more robust. Last night I was in a high-security system killing authority ships and clean mission targets and there was no security response at all - pretty weak.

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Apologies i've not read all the thread as i've read its like many times before but just picked up on this.

trade ships are useless in open, even though they are the bread and butter of piracy I always used to posting on the forums about buffing them, freighters in space games just don't follow these sort of rules they are usually slow but tough, ED trade ships are slow and extremely vulnerable. The irony is if they ever make the AI semi effective this will become the case in solo as well and they will finally have to buff the trade ships . The terrible stats are everywhere a T9 needs a 8A shield to match a 4A on an FDL, 8A shields cost as much as a maxed out FDL (160mil)

The ship budgets in ED are just not thought out well enough, they pretend that they are trying to make them follow some logical path but they just don't, trade ships are just bad, cobra, asp, clipper, python, conda/cutter/corvette are all better than the tradeship variant and completely invalidate them, the only reason you fly a tradeship is because you can't afford the difference between what you are in, and what you should be flying right now.

Agreed, why a hulking unit that is a T7 is made of matchsticks I will never know... and you're right, the T9 is not much better (and getting it open-worthy costs a fortune).

 

[Sandmann]

Apologies i've not read all the thread as i've read its like many times before but just picked up on this.

trade ships are useless in open, even though they are the bread and butter of piracy I always used to posting on the forums about buffing them, freighters in space games just don't follow these sort of rules they are usually slow but tough, ED trade ships are slow and extremely vulnerable. The irony is if they ever make the AI semi effective this will become the case in solo as well and they will finally have to buff the trade ships . The terrible stats are everywhere a T9 needs a 8A shield to match a 4A on an FDL, 8A shields cost as much as a maxed out FDL (160mil)

The ship budgets in ED are just not thought out well enough, they pretend that they are trying to make them follow some logical path but they just don't, trade ships are just bad, cobra, asp, clipper, python, conda/cutter/corvette are all better than the tradeship variant and completely invalidate them, the only reason you fly a tradeship is because you can't afford the difference between what you are in, and what you should be flying right now.

Yeah you're right.. they should be tanks, and now they're eggshells.

The reason I posted that though was coz the OP started a thread asking for what we'd want to see in open in order to come back to it... then a few pages later posted a fairly sadistic list of the things he enjoyed doing to other players. I suggested there was not much in his list to make us want to come back, so I asked HIM what would they need to put into open to get him to stop doing all of that, and predicted he'd say that nothing would stop him. He's failed to answer that question.

 

[KestrelPi]

Just learn to adapt and improve

I assume you mean to PvP conditions.

Why should I? I don't have to, or want to, because Frontier have provided various options (which could be better) for me to enjoy the PvE gameplay that I'm after. I have absolutely no idea what it gets me to adapt to play conditions that aren't interesting to me in the first place.

Despite the topic ostensibly being about how open should change, all these discussions end up with PvP players talking about how players who are currently playing PvE should change the way to play to make Open work for them. I'm still waiting for the big revelation about what that gets me except for additional hassle.

If you are trying to make the act of being pirated sound like a really exciting and vital part of the game that we should relish the opportunity of getting involved with... eh. No sale, so far.

 

[Majinvash]

Translation: Trade ships are useless in open coz the only thing open is for is PvP.

So, you're back. You didn't answer my question earlier I note.

Your selective reading aside.

Trading in open is easy peasy and carries no more risk than playing in Solo, If you know where you going to likely encounter danger.
I proved this while streaming, running a shieldless D rated conda carrying slaves for 3-4 VERY dull hours.
Back in the VERY early days of my ED career when Open was at its busiest, I tried rare trading in my T6 for about 3 days and realised what a terrible choice it was.
I then changed to the Cobra and was never caught again. I learned how to get better.

Even in a blissful utopian version of this game where gankers/griefers/saltminers didn't exist, there would still be pirates in a CG.

So your rare and meaningful PVP would still result in you having the worse choice of ship for the given situation.

Also what post of yours did I miss? Uptil midday today my content was moderated and some stuff got posted hours if not days after I wrote it.
I would hate to think any of my adoring public was feeling undervalued.

Also to your recent post about DB saying what he wanted with Elite. PVP is rare statistically speaking and often very meaningful for the weaker player.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Lateralus]

If you are trying to make the act of being pirated sound like a really exciting and vital part of the game that we should relish the opportunity of getting involved with... eh. No sale, so far.

Unfortunately FD inadvertently gave players a choice in this by making NPC pirates so terrible (they either just start shooting or make vague demands - but are easily escaped from). This should not be a choice a trader gets to make, as it should be a mandatory hazard to the trading profession. Roll on 2.1..

 

[Derath]

Yeah you're right.. they should be tanks, and now they're eggshells.

The reason I posted that though was coz the OP started a thread asking for what we'd want to see in open in order to come back to it... then a few pages later posted a fairly sadistic list of the things he enjoyed doing to other players. I suggested there was not much in his list to make us want to come back, so I asked HIM what would they need to put into open to get him to stop doing all of that, and predicted he'd say that nothing would stop him. He's failed to answer that question.

Ahhh my apologies for jumping in halfway I just like to vent about how bad the tradeships are!

 

[Sandmann]

FD's view on that seems to have liberalised since those videos were made - they probably realised that 'griefing' is a very specific scenario and shouldn't just be applied to any situation where a clean player is killed by another player. Doing so would discourage players from becoming criminals, and FD clearly want a percentage of players to play the role of criminal (pirate, assassin, psycho etc).

One thing I do agree on though is that the criminality/consequences system is pants and needs to more robust. Last night I was in a high-security system killing authority ships and clean mission targets and there was no security response at all - pretty weak.

As with everything ED has evolved over time though it shows you the mindset they started with. Pretty well everything they've done since then (on this topic at least) has been a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and always with the intent of changing it as little as possible from it's original vision instead of accepting that the original vision was flawed because it "relied on the kindness of strangers" too much. They're talking about bumping law and order in v2.1, and there's the proposal sandro put forward in the "pvp is unfair" thread not long before that too, so we'll see if this second "consequence" update actually has some of the required teeth. (I'm quite happy to see that a lot of what sandro put into that proposal is almost a cut & paste of what I was suggesting the first time around, so I'm a bit hopeful.)

 

[defekt]

All due respect but I have to disagree as well. You only have to look at any of the video interviews with DBOBE where they speak about griefing to see his naivety... "It's going to be primarily a cooperative game, pvp will happen of course but it will be rare and meaningful, and we'll have strong consequences to moderate antisocial behaviour". You can see how well that worked out - consequences are laughable and practically non-existent, open is all about pvp, and the only reason it's rare is coz all the victims have fled to mobius or solo because it's pretty much meaningless.

^ QFT

Dave of Braben spoke well of what he envisaged PvP would be like in Open but the reality really could not be further from his view. This reality in no way invalidates Dave of Braben's vision, I'd very much like to play in the ED universe he described; however, it highlights how naively the mechanisms were designed to facilitate his vision. Crime & Punishment in ED is so far off kilter it, arguably, does nothing. The damage this has done, and is doing, to Open must be considerable - for folks on both sides of the PvP equation. (I'd like nothing more than ED to have a viable 'career' pirate option, but it simply doesn't right now.)

There are many areas where ED has been somewhat awkwardly designed and assembled -- PP for example, what a giant waste of time and money that disconnected mess turned out to be -- but, to my eye, by far the most impactful of these errors has been the Crime & Punshment and System Security systems.

 

[Sandmann]

Ahhh my apologies for jumping in halfway I just like to vent about how bad the tradeships are!

Vent all you like, you're preaching to the choir here.

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^ QFT

Dave of Braben spoke well of what he envisaged PvP would be like in Open but the reality really could not be further from his view. This reality in no way invalidates Dave of Braben's vision, I'd very much like to play in the ED universe he described; however, it highlights how naively the mechanisms were designed to facilitate his vision. Crime & Punishment in ED is so far off kilter it, arguably, does nothing. The damage this has done, and is doing, to Open must be considerable - for folks on both sides of the PvP equation. (I'd like nothing more than ED to have a viable 'career' pirate option, but it simply doesn't right now.)

There are many areas where ED has been somewhat awkwardly designed and assembled -- PP for example, what a giant waste of time and money that disconnected mess turned out to be -- but, to my eye, by far the most impactful of these errors has been the Crime & Punshment and System Security systems.

Can't argue with anything you've said here. +1 to you.

 

[Majinvash]

I assume you mean to PvP conditions.

Why should I? I don't have to, or want to, because Frontier have provided various options (which could be better) for me to enjoy the PvE gameplay that I'm after. I have absolutely no idea what it gets me to adapt to play conditions that aren't interesting to me in the first place.

Despite the topic ostensibly being about how open should change, all these discussions end up with PvP players talking about how players who are currently playing PvE should change the way to play to make Open work for them. I'm still waiting for the big revelation about what that gets me except for additional hassle.

If you are trying to make the act of being pirated sound like a really exciting and vital part of the game that we should relish the opportunity of getting involved with... eh. No sale, so far.

You say PVP conditions?

I am talking generally but with a bias to what is likely to happen in Open and to keep relevant to the last few posts, trading in a CG.
You are only fortunate that the NPC's are so comically terrible that you think PVP is such a threat.

If they made NPC's any form of challenge, my explanation about using the right ship would be 100% on point

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Tetryl]

It actually comes down to you. YOUR bad choice in ship and unrealistic expectations.

Expecting the weakest worst ship in the game to be suitable for a hostile environment is your mistake.
Blaming others for killing you is just a by-product.

Well, let's compare it to a situation in the real world. We do have piracy (the criminals on boats kind, not the copying of copyrighted stuff kind). It's usually concentrated in some places with limited or failing government (some spots in Africa and Asia in particular). The pirates are using relatively poor equipment, because it's not exactly the world's most lucrative job even if it beats the averages for their region, but their tools are good enough to deal with unarmed cargo ships.

The situation in Elite in Open seems to be more like having fleets of modern guided missile cruisers lying in wait in front of major US and European harbours, blowing up random container ships and supertankers just for a laugh, without apparent profit motive.

It would be considered quite ridiculous if that were to happen in real life, and it feels just as nuts in Elite. It's not playing with a profit motive, there seems to be no story justification for the existence of such gank gangs, so you could say it's immersion-breaking: a reminder you're not in some future universe with a real world, but just a game populated by people who mainly want to blow others up, even if it's really out of character for the lore to do it in that way.

Ideally, knowing the universe, one should be able to make an educated guess about where it might be safe to fly a mostly defenceless cargo transport. In practice, those places end up being the most dangerous, because a gank gang decided to park and ambush in the spot where they expected to find lots of defenceless transports. And even a small gank wing can be disproportionately effective because the targets, which might easily outnumber them, are spread out in parallel universes (instances).

 

[Sandmann]

Your selective reading aside.

Trading in open is easy peasy and carries no more risk than playing in Solo, If you know where you going to likely encounter danger.
I proved this while streaming, running a shieldless D rated conda carrying slaves for 3-4 VERY dull hours.
Back in the VERY early days of my ED career when Open was at its busiest, I tried rare trading in my T6 for about 3 days and realised what a terrible choice it was.
I then changed to the Cobra and was never caught again. I learned how to get better.

"I flew around the deserted areas of space in one of the meanest looking ships at the time (even though I'd turned it into a flying hull) and didn't get attacked." Wow, there's a surprise.

"Then I flew around in one of the most vulnerable looking ships there was to some of the busiest areas of space and got clobbered." Again, what a surprise.

"Then I changed to the fastest ship in the game and the clobbering stopped". The surprises are unending.

Seriously, you're just proving my point here.

Even in a blissful utopian version of this game where gankers/griefers/saltminers didn't exist, there would still be pirates in a CG.

So your rare and meaningful PVP would still result in you having the worse choice of ship for the given situation.

You're forgetting (probably intentionally) that in that "blissfull utopian version of this game" there'd also be strong consequences, adequate police responses, and so on. Yes there'd be a pirates, there'd be a very good reason (MEANINGFUL PvP, remember?) for the pirates to be there coz they follow the loot. But they couldn't just hang around ganking at will anymore so trading to a CG in open would then become a lottery instead of a suicide run. No one wants a sterile safe universe, but what we have now is a free for all with fish in a barrel.

Also what post of yours did I miss? Uptil midday today my content was moderated and some stuff got posted hours if not days after I wrote it.
I would hate to think any of my adoring public was feeling undervalued.

I'll address that below. (Wow, adoring public eh? How IS that ego of yours? Dream on, batman.)

Also to your recent post about DB saying what he wanted with Elite. PVP is rare statistically speaking and often very meaningful for the weaker player.

Rare, yes... like I said - we all left, which is WHY you started this thread. You however seem to be conflating "distressing and unpleasant" with "meaningful". This is perhaps the reason you don't "get" the argument.

OK to my earlier message... you said

I hunt players. Even the worst player is more challenging than an NPC. Sometimes I "Boil them up" for LOL's but usually because they do not do as they are told.
I pirate players because they can interact and are unpredictable. Also and this is a given, they carry the best booty.
I usually pirate in a Python or Corvette, both have upwards of 64tonnes of cargo space and collector limpets.
I don't cargo scan, 1) it is a waste of a utility slot and 2) because 99% of the time if you hunt in the right systems, the only people there in trade ships are there to Sell Something. That 1% I sometimes make dance for me. ( True story )
I stream A LOT and can usually be seen stalking around Cemiese, regularly taking in full hauls of Abandoned Imperial Slaves.
While steaming you will see that my Empire rank is not high enough for a Cutter, you will also hear my distaste for Cutters as they are OP. ( A for effort Jediben )
Sometimes, I will fly with SDC and blow players up because there is nothing else to do. Also as previously stated NPC's are not a challenge to me.
I LOVED to fly my Viper and Dual PA Vulture, taking on the biggest baddest ships I can find because I love the challenge. ( Currently this isn't really viable because the current meta and hull reinforcements make it near impossible to inflict enough damage with either of these two ships.)
I have pirated in my FDL in The New Caribbean, which didn't have any cargo space. Simply to keep the notoriety of The Code in peoples minds. ( Seems to have worked )
I went in Mobius over a year ago and Pirated all the players I could find, it was a lot of fun. They are still salty over it.

And I replied:

Well, that's very honest and forthcoming of you. Given that the basic premise of the thread was to enquire as to what we'd require to make us want to come back to open so you can continue to get your kicks by doing all that to us, it might be more useful to ask YOU what sort of consequences and mechanisms would be required to make you STOP doing all that, since none of it seems terribly enjoyable from our perspective.

My prediction is that you'll tell us that there's nothing that would stop you from acting that way, to which I'd have to reply that in that case there's nothing that would make us want to include you in our game time. I'd be very happy to be wrong though, so do go right ahead.

Would love for you to answer it now that you're "unmoderated" (whatever that means).

 

[Majinvash]

Honestly lost with what point you are trying to make.

But I did reply to your post, go back a couple of days and check. The moderation meant that although I wrote it, MOD's didnt post it.

Well, that's very honest and forthcoming of you. Given that the basic premise of the thread was to enquire as to what we'd require to make us want to come back to open so you can continue to get your kicks by doing all that to us, it might be more useful to ask YOU what sort of consequences and mechanisms would be required to make you STOP doing all that, since none of it seems terribly enjoyable from our perspective.

My prediction is that you'll tell us that there's nothing that would stop you from acting that way, to which I'd have to reply that in that case there's nothing that would make us want to include you in our game time. I'd be very happy to be wrong though, so do go right ahead.

There is a solution but its one I have been shot down about already because it would make the whole game more challenging and invite other game mechanics like making blockading possible.

My thread can be found here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=208483

But to give as short a TLDR as I can produce.

The only way to stop player killers is to have other player killers stop them. There are plenty of teams out there who want to play the good guys.
All the time there is ZERO risk to a player killer, all the fines and slight inconvenience with docking wont make a shred of difference.

I want challenge, in fact I invite it. This is why I PVP not PVE.

If I knew that pirating in Cemiese was a risk to me and my credits, I would have to decide if the risk was worth it.
I could certainly be chased out by a Wing and then as long as they remained, not want to return.

Unless they change Submit Highwake and Masslock not effecting Highwake, there is nothing that can be done that a player killer cannot escape from with ease. Which means they have no risk for their actions, no matter what their payout might be.

If you sort that, combat logging and the 15seconds timer. All the fines and bounties will be worth something. Until then, it does nothing as it is no risk to the PVP player.

But as you will see, the effects of this would be far reaching and everyone starts throwing EVE terms in and we go back to hoping fines will work. Which they will not.
You need a HUGE solution to fix a HUGE problem. A bandaid will not make a difference. Its a community issue that needs a community fix.

If you matched a huge increase of me being caught and killed with large fines, it WOULD effect how I play. But it would need both.
This would still have to be married with a boost in some way to traders who play in Open because the increased risk would still be there.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Robert Maynard]

The only way to stop player killers is to have other player killers stop them. There are plenty of teams out there who want to play the good guys.

The game world is too big for bands of roving PKKers to get to scene of the "interaction" in time to stop the target being destroyed, in most cases....

 

[Majinvash]

The game world is too big for bands of roving PKKers to get to scene of the "interaction" in time to stop the target being destroyed, in most cases....

Not arguing with that, there would have to be other tools eventually to help this.

But certainly in CG's and known high value trade routes, this would make a huge impact.

Even in those FEW cases, it would be more effective than any NPC deterrent.
It would also make escorts viable. Currently, I could jump in, gank and highwake out a T6 being escorted by 3 Cutters ( example )

And I am under no illusion it would be an instant fix, but it would make an impact as the risk to the attackers would increased exponentially.

People asked what it would take for me to stop. Nothing.
To make me much more selective and very careful, is the positive start right?

My Pirate Python would not survive being attacked by a defence wing containing another Python ( Masslock ) if I couldn't highwake.

I also know it would make attacking larger targets easier but as I said, it would be a community solution to a community problem.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Sandmann]

But I did reply to your post, go back a couple of days and check.

Must have missed that - my apologies.

The only way to stop player killers is to have other player killers stop them. There are plenty of teams out there who want to play the good guys.
All the time there is ZERO risk to a player killer, all the fines and slight inconvenience with docking wont make a shred of difference.

See, that MIGHT work if this were an arena or small game... but it's not. It's got 40 billions stars and it's thousands of thousands of lightyears across. Plus it assumes that the whole game revolves around combat rather than that just being one of 4 main parts of it. It's also the same laughable argument that the NRA uses - "The only thing that's gonna stop people shooting each other is if we have more guns!" Yeah, right, coz that's worked so well up to this point.

I want challenge, in fact I invite it. This is why I PVP not PVE.

See again, it's hard to take this seriously when you'd just described yourself as pretty much a seal clubber in the earlier posting. How much challenge IS that?

It's also hard to take you seriously when everyone's advocating "step up security, put in real policing" etc and you're arguing against it. It sounds like you DON'T want a challenge, you want PC fish in a barrel.

 

[sic]

1. The only place for pirate is in anarchy system.. else criminal WILL be hunted down by security within 5 minutes..
No matter who is the system owner, if it's secure, criminal will be treated as criminal, no matter you're friendly or allied..

Anyway, how the hell are secure system being 'SECURE' if there's a mindless murderer flyin around??

2. Any interdiction attempt must be chased by security in cobra FDL anaconda cutter corvette wings..
and them cops must arrive before you can charge your FSD, and more police every 5 minutes..

So even you can kill your weak prey within seconds (FDL railguns *cough*).. you must work your way to escape the police..

And if you're hunting with your friends, you're going to be overwhelmed eventually..


hmm.. since there'll be distress call, other player might come and help the police (or help you)..


3. Read number 1, Docking is always refused for murderer/wanted until the bounty/status expired...
And when it's on, it's never dormant, no matter how many times the murdered killed by cops/security/players..

4. If you are murderer and you're dead in space, you can not spawn in your prev station unless it's in anarchy system..
so if you want to be criminal, move all your ship to your pirating nest..

5. A kill will gets you wanted status for 7 days.. 2 kills will get you 21 days,... 3 kills = 63 days, 4 kills = 189 days.. so on..

6. You can pay to clear your crime though.. 1 kills 7 million, 2 kills 21 million, 3 kills 63 million,... so on..



So.. to be a criminal:
1. You gotta have a plan..
2. you gotta have a ship.... a fast one, agile one, deadly one.. EXPENSIVE ONE!!
3. you gotta have a technique, kung-fu, tai-chi, karate or military knowledge..
3. you gotta have your people, friends who you can work to do A REAL CRIME..



Without all this,.. you can just get into your suicidewinder and murder players like nobodys business..
And even with all this, Im not going to play open if there's nothing I want to do with/to other player..


----------
tl;dr;

just dont read..

 

[Sandmann]

And even with all this, Im not going to play open if there's nothing I want to do with/to other player..

While I agree with a lot of what you've just said, this is probably the most pertinent point. Everything else will significantly reduce the amount of stuff going on in open that makes people leave... but unless there's actually something IN open why would you go back? I keep saying it... no-one plays a game that isn't FUN for them, so if you've got a bunch of people who obviously DON'T think PvP is fun and you want to make them want to come to open, you've got to make open FUN ENOUGH to make them want to tolerate the PvP (and no, no amount of extra PvP is going to do that).

 

[sic]

While I agree with a lot of what you've just said, this is probably the most pertinent point. Everything else will significantly reduce the amount of stuff going on in open that makes people leave... but unless there's actually something IN open why would you go back? I keep saying it... no-one plays a game that isn't FUN for them, so if you've got a bunch of people who obviously DON'T think PvP is fun and you want to make them want to come to open, you've got to make open FUN ENOUGH to make them want to tolerate the PvP (and no, no amount of extra PvP is going to do that).

That's what Im actually struggling with that..

I think.. and I hope not.. they should just have one mode = Open... with all that above..
so there's no other choice for soloer but to 'meet' people.. and no other choice for criminal wannabe but to play 'smart'..


btw, endless spawning security/cops/police IS the definition of security.. not immersion breaking..