(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[Starlear]

Sssshhhh the mistress is listening and she already has plans...

I will sacrifice the piece of lemon meringue pie in front of me in her honor, in hopes that her plans err more on the side of devious death than on "Hard, but fair enough to not be as hard as another commander". Give us wings of 4 silent running rail-de-lances, SJA. <3

 

[Fenris Wolf]

I think it will make PP better, a lot of clans and groups left PP precisely because they felt stupid grinding knowing that there are people grinding against them and there is not a chance that they can do anything about it.

Don't get me wrong... bit confused here... but, isn't that just like real life?

Let's say that you work for G-Fang Plumbers, a small town company and the on;y plumber in town.

Along comes about plumber, B-Fung Plumbing and they start to take your customers away.

Your company grinds to get more customers, the other company does the same... there you go, Powerplay.

No?

 

[Lheim]

Alternatively, folks..

If we, as elsewhere has been suggested, made PvP death 'free' .. there'd be little reason to implement a bonus to open PP.

 

[Lestenio]

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

I think the logic is some what flawed.
Consider a player who enjoys PP but has no interest in any perceived PvP risk (real or otherwise), and they are perfectly happy in a PG or in solo. What do you realistically think is going to happen to them when they get told they can continue to play, but their contribution will be meaningless.

a) will they realise the error of their ways and completely change their playing habits by switching to open and suddenly embracing pvp

b) continue as is regardless

c) decide that PP isn't worth the effort and do something different while sticking to the game mode they enjoy

For every handful of players your proposed change makes happy, you'll have buckets of players choosing option c

 

[Kristov]

I disagree.

either you apply it to the BGS and the player's minor faction too, either you don't apply it at all, why a different treatment between players that want to compete using PP and players who want to compete using the BGS ?

You said after the PP release that it was fine if a majority of players didn't like PP, but now it seems that you want to force every player that want to interact between groups to use the PP mechanisms and not the BGS...

Because NPCs have no influence on PP, it's purely player driven, while the BGS is influenced by NPCs as well as players, bit a huge difference there, and they both work in different ways to achieve different end results as well, which you should be fully aware of, so why this line of argument?

 

[GilliganTX]

And here's the problem, people are tossing about equality and equity, and neither of those applies here, this is about balance, that's it. Each mode is supposed to be the same overall game experience as every other mode, the only difference between them is to be the social interaction you want, none, friends only, or everyone. Otherwise, doing PP in any mode should be the same as doing PP in any other mode. That's not how it's working however, it never has, and this proposal will correct that imbalance, and that's all it does, correct the imbalance between the modes directly for PP, by giving the Powers a modifier, no reward is giving directly to the player. It will work, the modifier will need to be messed with to get it correct, but it will work for the direct purpose of fixing the imbalance between modes for PP.

Again, I am not in favor of this proposal, it WILL fix the imbalance, but it's just a bandaid over a much deeper problem, which is that PP is just messed up and needs to be redone totally, and it should be an Open only option due to it being a directed player vs player game mechanic, that's per FD no less so no one can argue that point...not that they will let something like facts get in the way...

I disagree, I think equality is an important thing to consider here taking FD's past promises of equality into account. If they had never made that promise it would be a non-issue. But they did make that promise, and it has to be taken into consideration when discussing anything that is going to affect how one mode effects the BGS vs the others.

Other than that I agree.

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Because NPCs have no influence on PP, it's purely player driven, while the BGS is influenced by NPCs as well as players, bit a huge difference there, and they both work in different ways to achieve different end results as well, which you should be fully aware of, so why this line of argument?

AFAIK NPC's do not effect any changes to minor factions influence, besides being exploded by players.

 

[Kristov]

I disagree, I think equality is an important thing to consider here taking FD's past promises of equality into account. If they had never made that promise it would be a non-issue. But they did make that promise, and it has to be taken into consideration when discussing anything that is going to affect how one mode effects the BGS vs the others.

Other than that I agree.

And that's why you keep driving me nuts in this thread and I haven't touched your arguments on that very subject, because I see where you are coming from, it's a logical standpoint based on real facts, so it's hard to describe why it's not the proper point and I'd rather not try since we both agree on the big picture end, it's easy for me to ignore the little stuff

 

[Ozric]

Alternatively, folks..

If we, as elsewhere has been suggested, made PvP death 'free'

Surely that's a joke?

 

[GilliganTX]

And that's why you keep driving me nuts in this thread and I haven't touched your arguments on that very subject, because I see where you are coming from, it's a logical standpoint based on real facts, so it's hard to describe why it's not the proper point and I'd rather not try since we both agree on the big picture end, it's easy for me to ignore the little stuff

It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.

 

[Kristov]

It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.

Damn Fedrat...

 

[Jansteffen]

Can we at least remove the ability to repeadetly switch back and forth between open and solo all the time? I'm fine with people choosing to play solo only, but I'm NOT fine with people abusing solo for 2 minutes as a crutch to bypass other players. If you switch from open to solo there needs to be a period of time (Like 1 day) before you're able to go back into open again.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Question for powerplayers.

If you are flying a clipper or other equally fast ship, is it possible for any PvPer to actually stop you from making your deliveries? What is the chance? With a ship like that, can't you even just boost and low wake out without issue from most ships?

Not an expert on interdicitons since the changes, are there any ships at the moment where you have to be particularly bad to escape an interdiciton (small ships are better yes)? Can you just run and laugh? Is that still possible?

I think you see where i'm going here of course. Is a bonus valid for the delivery actions. You get interdicted by NPCs anyway right, they slow you down in your objective. Does it being a PC make a difference if you are in the right ship?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Can we at least remove the ability to repeadetly switch back and forth between open and solo all the time? I'm fine with people choosing to play solo only, but I'm NOT fine with people abusing solo for 2 minutes as a crutch to bypass other players. If you switch from open to solo there needs to be a period of time (Like 1 day) before you're able to go back into open again.

Urk... did Sandro consider this? What is to stop people switching modes between source and destination when doing PP deliveries?

 

[Midnight Sun]

Surely that's a joke?

Well, why not?

I won't go into Open because my activities usually end up with me carrying a bunch of vouchers or merits that I have to cash in before I get exploded. If that wasn't an issue, I wouldn't mind so much getting exploded. Cos really, there's enough grind already.

 

[Bacalao]

Don't get me wrong... bit confused here... but, isn't that just like real life?Let's say that you work for G-Fang Plumbers, a small town company and the on;y plumber in town.Along comes about plumber, B-Fung Plumbing and they start to take your customers away.Your company grinds to get more customers, the other company does the same... there you go, Powerplay.No?

No, no, no. Those companies are only competing if the plumbers from G-Fang and B-Fung smash each others faces in with wrenches over and over and over and over.

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Urk... did Sandro consider this? What is to stop people switching modes between source and destination when doing PP deliveries?

I believe one of his earlier posts addresses this issue, though not with any specifics.

 

[Brimstone]

Question for powerplayers.

If you are flying a clipper or other equally fast ship, is it possible for any PvPer to actually stop you from making your deliveries? What is the chance? With a ship like that, can't you even just boost and low wake out without issue from most ships?

Not an expert on interdicitons since the changes, are there any ships at the moment where you have to be particularly bad to escape an interdiciton (small ships are better yes)? Can you just run and laugh? Is that still possible?

I think you see where i'm going here of course. Is a bonus valid for the delivery actions. You get interdicted by NPCs anyway right, they slow you down in your objective. Does it being a PC make a difference if you are in the right ship?

If the players that interdicted you are also in a Clipper, sure. If it's a wing of Clippers with high damage weapons, absolutely. The ship you fly doesn't really matter in this type of arguement.

 

[YinYin]

You are confusing equality with equity.


At present, the modes are all treated equally by frontier.

What makes the modes different is their populations.

That difference in populations results in inequitable results between the groups regarding powerplay.


Many seem to be viewing that inequity as inequality, which is not the case. The modes are absolutely treated equally by the developers. Zero distinction is made regarding a mechanics effectiveness or usability between the groups. The nature of the groups returns a difference in equity.

Since I suspect quite a few don't understand the difference between equity and equality, here is a popular simple picture:

Our three modes are currently treated equally, resulting in the situation on the left.

This proposed boost would aim to achieve the situation on the right, only lifting the small open boy to better engage with power play though (potentially not rising him high enough - or in fact too high).

 

[Derath]

Since I suspect quite a few don't understand the difference between equity and equality, here is a popular simple picture:

http://dev.primarycarematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/HealthEquity-e1430160356168.jpg

Our three modes are currently treated equally, resulting in the situation on the left.

This proposed boost would aim to achieve the situation on the right, only lifting the small open boy to better engage with power play though (potentially not rising him high enough - or in fact too high).

Hahahahaha I love the image + rep for rendering the difference so well.

 

[Carmaki]

On this same train of thought, would you be pleased if NPC's were buffed to be as hard (and thus as likely to successfully kill you) as other players? Because that's what true equality among all modes would be. Right now, Solo and Private are not equal to open - they are significantly easier. For true parity across modes, the less risky modes would need to be made just as difficult. Or, alternately, you could reward people for taking the higher risk and going to Open.

I would be okay with it. If they decide to buff NPCs to that point, then well... It certainly make the game more difficult, but at least no one would have some 'advantage' simply because they play on a certain mode.

 

[Cosmos]

Hello Commanders!

Spoiler

Lots of lively debate here, for sure, but let's keep things civil, please. I understand that this is an emotive subject, but remember, that's never an excuse for being rude.

So, just to let you folk know a little more of the reasoning behind the concept of an Open Play bonus, I thought I'd pop this out.

Elite Dangerous is a game where you can just as easily play solo, in groups or as part of a nation, as it were.

In general, there aren't mechanical befits within the game to push you towards one style of play over another.

However, there are a few aspects of the game that are specifically aimed at utilising the fact that the game has multiplayer facets, one of these is Powerplay.

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

In addition, Powerplay has rules to handle direct Commander-Commander confrontation. Indeed, this is the core conceit: the system encourages justifiable piracy and homicide for a higher purpose. It’s my belief that Powerplay will always be at its best when opposing Commanders interact directly, whether in an expansion conflict zone or through interdiction.

So it feels natural (to me) to look at ways to encourage Commanders to use Open Play. However, It’s also fairly clear that human opposition is potentially, and generally speaking, much more of a significant threat than NPCs.

Now we have to consider probabilities. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you might never run into a human opponent in a control system, even playing in open. The fact remains however, that you *might* instead run into several. And this is on top of the standard NPC threat, which is identical in all play modes.

What’s more, the more pledged Commanders that play in Open, the greater the likelihood there is of human interaction and conflict.

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

And there’s another point to make here, that’s quite simple but also fairly undeniable, is that playing in Open you don’t just meet other Commanders pledged to Powers. You meet *all* other Commanders. That includes all sorts of scum and villainy (character persona only, of course).

So what would an Open Play Success bonus actually achieve? The idea is that it’s a reward for taking the additional risk, whether the risk actually manifests or not.

If you care about Powerplay, and care that you power does well in it, then playing in Open is a “force multiplier” for your Power’s strength.

If you generally play in a Private Group or in Solo, it’s also a gamble, because in addition to all the NPC challenges you have the possibility of opposing Commanders engaging you.

If you already play in Open then you could treat this bonus as a reward for working with the game to make it the best it can be for all involved.

As to the size of the bonus, well, that’s up for grabs. Clearly it would have to be reasonably large to have the potential to cause significant change, but I’m not too worried about the details of that at the moment, I’m more interested in what folk make of the concept in general.

Of course, it’s equally important to remember that this is, at the moment, just being raised as an idea, nothing more. Everyone’s opinion is equally valid, even in disagreement, and all feedback is useful.

Pinch me, I must be dreaming! It gets my thumbs up, Open does need a bit of love and an incentive for folk to play in it. Its certainly a step in the right direction and would spice up PP even in its current state. I still think the PP mechanics and gameplay are rather wanting atm and hope that will be addressed to.

My feeling is that along side this and hopefully improvements to PP it might focus players energy who like adversarial play into something rather more meaningful and enjoyable. The concept of PP was never a bad one but its implementation didn't do the concept justice.

I'd say its the right move for the game even though some will protest. Whilst it will increase the value of adversarial play I also think it will unify players too when we are required to work with others in our power.

Go for it Sandro