(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[Gedemon]

The forums, I'm not going to start digging through the posts for that information, but it's not exactly a secret or anything, PP is the only purely player driven mechanic in the game, everything else, including the BGS, is influenced by NPCs, and I don't mean the ones you kill.

So basically you're just saying that your memory is better than mine ?

That's totally possible, but I won't believe it until I read it. And I'm pretty sure it was never mentioned in any dev update or patch note.

What I do remember is NPCs spawned accordingly to the state of BGS, not the other way (spawned NPC influencing the state of the BGS in other way than being killed by players)

 

[GluttonyFang]

Question for powerplayers.

If you are flying a clipper or other equally fast ship, is it possible for any PvPer to actually stop you from making your deliveries? What is the chance? With a ship like that, can't you even just boost and low wake out without issue from most ships?

Not an expert on interdicitons since the changes, are there any ships at the moment where you have to be particularly bad to escape an interdiciton (small ships are better yes)? Can you just run and laugh? Is that still possible?

I think you see where i'm going here of course. Is a bonus valid for the delivery actions. You get interdicted by NPCs anyway right, they slow you down in your objective. Does it being a PC make a difference if you are in the right ship?

Using Clipper already limits one's delivery capacity, not to mention it makes systems that have only medium landing pad off limit. Whereas if said individual does not have to worry about player opposition can fly a much higher capacity ship without worry about NPCs being able to do anything.

Not to mention I have blown up my fair share of combat Clippers in my Clipper/FAS/FDL, if they are running delivery (which reduces the shield class on the Clipper most likely due to efficient carrying), it's not hard to intercept.

Even if they run prismatic A7 + 4 SBs which reduces the carrying capacity to 120 if full up on cargo racks, with only 10% power left to put on any weapons (which means pretty much none, even 4 turreted pulse lasers [low energy cost] causes over capacity), with a laden jump range of 14.5 Ly and 51 Ly in total without a fuel scoop. 648 MJ of shield (4 Pips) is like paper for any combat outfitted ship of its same class and if there's two attackers of the same class, forget it.

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How about telling the government not to pay G-Fang Plumbers more, but to do something about the group of bandits or to pay a bonus after direct interaction with the bandits?

I know, don't understand the example

Well, now I think you know you're intentionally making examples unequal, I don't think I even need to explain why it's again, a misunderstanding of my example.

 

[Cosmos]

I hope that those who would normally be opposed to the suggestion by Sandro would take time to carefully consider it. The game is by and large 99.99 PvE at present, with a solo and private group mode available. Thats already a lot for players who are verhmently against any adversarial play. Open in my view is kinda pointless as it stands and a small incentive to play in Open surely has to be a good thing for the game. (this being an MMO people do expect to see other players)

I think it will offer a way for players to focus their energies a bit more constructively when it comes to adversarial play and its a tiny compromise in the scheme of things. I see the potential not just for adversarial play but I would think it would make for greater and more meaningful co-op play too amongst people supporting the same power. Course, PP is optional and we can still play it in solo or pg if we choose. I reckon we should consider that its better for the game if ED supports different styles of play, its not exactly changing a whole lot but it would throw a bone to players who like this sort of thing. Surely a win win? To say no to this stikes me as being unfair to the rest of the player base and a little short sighted.

I think it would be good for the game and lets see how it works out?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Well, now I think you know you're intentionally making examples unequal, I don't think I even need to explain why it's again, a misunderstanding of my example.

Well, I'm looking at a different part of the exampl. You are trying to explain the effect, I'm looking at the game design. Wondering if an other solution would be possible and maybe better.

Edit: Addition: after reading Sandro's responses to the thread I guess no other solution is wanted as making Open Mode more attractive is part of the intention (and not just making the modes equally valid).

 

[Tuub t Tute]

The issue with that analogy is that G-Fang Plumbers are working actively against a group of bandits continuously disrupting the company's work, but B-Fung Plumbing gets no interference whatsoever. Both groups work for the government, yet the government pays both group the same.

Guess who's going to work for G-Fang Plumbers? The insane.

That's not a nice way to talk about Maj... he will get all antsy and start writing inflammatory posts

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

However, there are a few aspects of the game that are specifically aimed at utilising the fact that the game has multiplayer facets, one of these is Powerplay.

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

Thank you for this clarification of intention. Sure, it might seem obvious based on mechanics, but explicitly stating the intention is much better for ravening speculating masses that we are as your devoted fans.

If you already play in Open then you could treat this bonus as a reward for working with the game to make it the best it can be for all involved.

As to the size of the bonus, well, that’s up for grabs. Clearly it would have to be reasonably large to have the potential to cause significant change, but I’m not too worried about the details of that at the moment, I’m more interested in what folk make of the concept in general.

Of course, it’s equally important to remember that this is, at the moment, just being raised as an idea, nothing more. Everyone’s opinion is equally valid, even in disagreement, and all feedback is useful.

Is there a means to address this incentive without explicitly making it a bonus? If merit contributions in Open are worth double merit contributions in Solo or Private Group, you will see an unending array of complaints, even if personal merit counts are unaffected. How difficult would it be to separate 'success trigger' from 'merits delivered'? CMDRs earn merits for their activities. Nowhere are you suggesting that a CMDR in Open earns double merits for the same activity. You are suggesting, however, that the 'success trigger' should be easier to reach from merits earned in Open Play, right? Well, separate the trigger from the merit count, and you give yourself even more options for additional updates in the future. Hell, let's call them Action Points, because I'm really bad at names.

Player O earns 10 merits for every hostile ship destroyed in a Power Play Combat Zone. Player PG earns 10 merits for the same action. When both players deliver the merit vouchers, the UI displays the percentage towards the success trigger. One adds 15 action points while the other adds 10 action points towards the trigger. Everyone still sees the direct merit count remains the same, and the percentage towards the success trigger improves at a repeatable rate. This not only gives you a means to avoid far too many unthought bug reports and potential for updating the variety of Power Play tasks which contribute to the main actions.

Maybe there can be special missions or base assaults that contribute even more action points than they do to merit counts? Missions which require cooperative and competitive action for them to be achievable...

 

[Jypson]

Well, I'm looking at a different part of the exampl. You are trying to explain the effect, I'm looking at the game design. Wondering if an other solution would be possible and maybe better.

Indeed, treating the symptoms won't likely cure the disease. (no I don't think PvP/Open is a disease, don't take me too literally chaps)

 

[Deathwatch]

The forums, I'm not going to start digging through the posts for that information, but it's not exactly a secret or anything, PP is the only purely player driven mechanic in the game, everything else, including the BGS, is influenced by NPCs, and I don't mean the ones you kill.

Mate, try asking any guys whom know the background sim, they might have a "minor" influence but when they aren't in a state their influence is undetectable, Heck I argued to a number of my colleagues their was an effect from NPC's but it was more randomated server side than produced by NPC's but I was proven wrong by pure data evidence.

 

[Brimstone]

Sandro 2016

"We will make Open great again!"

 

[Bacalao]

The issue with that analogy is that G-Fang Plumbers are working actively against a group of bandits continuously disrupting the company's work, but B-Fung Plumbing gets no interference whatsoever. Both groups work for the government, yet the government pays both group the same.Guess who's going to work for G-Fang Plumbers? The insane.

No, there are members of both G-Fang and B-Fung that are going about their business with no concern for what the others are doing, in fact, they have no desire to even look around and see that there are plumbers from opposing companies also delivering pamphlets and they are enjoying their job very much (in a game this would be called fun). Other employees of G-Fang and B-Fung enjoy smashing each others faces in with wrenches over and over, or at least the possibility that some member of the opposing company might jump out from behind a bush and try to smash their face in as they deliver pamphlets. (in a game, they would also be having fun). Any employee at any time is free to go looking for some faces to smash without restraint or restriction (open), arrange an area where face smashing is prohibited/encouraged/mandatory amongst invited and willing participants (Mobius or any other group with whatever rules you want to have) or just deliver pamphlets all by themselves (solo) so long as they get their job done (have fun). Aren't these great companies?

 

[Walter2]

The forums, I'm not going to start digging through the posts for that information, but it's not exactly a secret or anything, PP is the only purely player driven mechanic in the game, everything else, including the BGS, is influenced by NPCs, and I don't mean the ones you kill.

Sorry, Kristov, you are wrong.

If no player interacts with a system there are no changes to influence levels, apart from the daily top-slicing of fractions of a point from the leading faction that are distributed to the lowest rankng factions. Even this does not occur in every system: some are static until a player intervenes. This is regular observation that anyone in the less-frequented regions can make.

And perhaps my memory is as faulty as yours, but I recall DB stating that NPCs do not affect BGS, but I can't find the reference either.

 

[Deathwatch]

No, there are members of both G-Fang and B-Fung that are going about their business with no concern for what the others are doing, in fact, they have no desire to even look around and see that there are plumbers from opposing companies also delivering pamphlets and they are enjoying their job very much (in a game this would be called fun). Other employees of G-Fang and B-Fung enjoy smashing each others faces in with wrenches over and over, or at least the possibility that some member of the opposing company might jump out from behind a bush and try to smash their face in as they deliver pamphlets. (in a game, they would also be having fun). Any employee at any time is free to go looking for some faces to smash without restraint or restriction (open), arrange an area where face smashing is prohibited/encouraged/mandatory amongst invited and willing participants (Mobius or any other group with whatever rules you want to have) or just deliver pamphlets all by themselves (solo) so long as they get their job done (have fun). Aren't these great companies?

Change the dynamic to nations not companies, then you have all the backstabbing etc which is slightly less pronounced in small companies.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Since I suspect quite a few don't understand the difference between equity and equality, here is a popular simple picture:

http://dev.primarycarematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/HealthEquity-e1430160356168.jpg

Our three modes are currently treated equally, resulting in the situation on the left.

This proposed boost would aim to achieve the situation on the right, only lifting the small open boy to better engage with power play though (potentially not rising him high enough - or in fact too high).

Before I get branded as someone who doesn't understand the difference, allow me to clarify my use of claim in "inequality" is to be distinguished between numerical equality and proportionate equality as per Aristotle.

 

[Don Alvarez]

My opinion, as stated elsewhere, is the unforeseen result if open receives a PP buff will be the serious solo/group PP commanders will abandon PP, rather than continue with their contributions at a reduced rate or join the nightmare they perceive to be open. The only ones left will be the merit grinders who could care less about the greater strategies, and PP will become primarily an open affair.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Well, I'm looking at a different part of the exampl. You are trying to explain the effect, I'm looking at the game design. Wondering if an other solution would be possible and maybe better.

Edit: Addition: after reading Sandro's responses to the thread I guess no other solution is wanted as making Open Mode more attractive is part of the intention (and not just making the modes equally valid).

I'm looking at game design, too.

The reason why I find your criticism flawed is that you believe the combative PvP opposition needs to somehow be restricted or controlled, alternatively reward actual confrontation.

Then I would bring up the idea of insurance. Will I get run over by a car today? I don't know, but I'm going to buy life insurance anyway. Sure, when I actually get ran over, the insurance is going to shave off a few dollars from my medical bill, but regardless I'm paying life insurance not because I know precisely when I'm going to get run over, it's the possibility of getting run over that I cannot control. (Yes, stay in door, I might die or get hurt by something else)

Sure, the majority of the effect of the insurance should take place when actual injury or death occurs, but that doesn't bar it from being a constant running in the background by simply living in an environment where I can very much get injured easily (Open Mode).

 

[Robert Maynard]

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

* I would not want to introduce this into any aspect of the game except Powerplay because Powerplay is the only aspect of the game that explicitly uses the concept of adversarial multiplayer, as opposed to the more vague ways that minor factions operate.

Hope this info helps.

Indeed it does - thanks very much for the clarifications, Sandro!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

My opinion, as stated elsewhere, is the unforeseen result if open receives a PP buff will be the serious solo/group PP commanders will abandon PP, rather than continue with their contributions at a reduced rate or join the nightmare they perceive to be open. The only ones left will be the merit grinders who could care less about the greater strategies, and PP will become primarily an open affair.

Open is not nightmare, let's be frank about that. People just don't want to be disturbed, that's all.

 

[Evolved]

The issue with that analogy is that G-Fang Plumbers are working actively against a group of bandits continuously disrupting the company's work, but B-Fung Plumbing gets no interference whatsoever. Both groups work for the government, yet the government pays both group the same.

Guess who's going to work for G-Fang Plumbers? The insane.

So what you're saying is, you want someone else to be "forced" to play the way that you enjoy?

Why should someone who enjoys open, chooses open because they enjoy it more, suddenly get bigger rewards for for their preferred mode? Giving more influence to open PP vs solo is benefiting 1 group of people, the ganking crowd. Giving an inherent benefit to open is a futile attempt at bribing people into open so that gankers have more targets.

I disagree that PP is inherently a PVP activity. It's essentially a Player vs NPC vs Player activity.

 

[Kristov]

So basically you're just saying that your memory is better than mine ?

That's totally possible, but I won't believe it until I read it. And I'm pretty sure it was never mentioned in any dev update or patch note.

What I do remember is NPCs spawned accordingly to the state of BGS, not the other way (spawned NPC influencing the state of the BGS in other way than being killed by players)

Mate, try asking any guys whom know the background sim, they might have a "minor" influence but when they aren't in a state their influence is undetectable, Heck I argued to a number of my colleagues their was an effect from NPC's but it was more randomated server side than produced by NPC's but I was proven wrong by pure data evidence.

Sorry, Kristov, you are wrong.

If no player interacts with a system there are no changes to influence levels, apart from the daily top-slicing of fractions of a point from the leading faction that are distributed to the lowest rankng factions. Even this does not occur in every system: some are static until a player intervenes. This is regular observation that anyone in the less-frequented regions can make.

And perhaps my memory is as faulty as yours, but I recall DB stating that NPCs do not affect BGS, but I can't find the reference either.

I stand corrected, funny, could have sworn NPCs were supposed to have an influence on the BGS besides dying...maybe I confused what CIG is doing with Star Citizen and the early stuff for Elite: Dangerous on the BGS...seems rather silly to me to have a BGS that doesn't actually have a background simulation running...

Can't say I've seen any systems that had so little traffic in them that this could be directly confirmed either, even little hole in the wall systems out on the frontier have multiple ships through them every day.

Thank you guys for pointing that out, good to know that I've been operating under a wrong premise for a bit now.

 

[GluttonyFang]

No, there are members of both G-Fang and B-Fung that are going about their business with no concern for what the others are doing, in fact, they have no desire to even look around and see that there are plumbers from opposing companies also delivering pamphlets and they are enjoying their job very much (in a game this would be called fun).

We are talking about PP, a competitive mechanic. Competition is the source of fun, outside of the mechanic, sure, it's fun.

Other employees of G-Fang and B-Fung enjoy smashing each others faces in with wrenches over and over, or at least the possibility that some member of the opposing company might jump out from behind a bush and try to smash their face in as they deliver pamphlets. (in a game, they would also be having fun). Any employee at any time is free to go looking for some faces to smash without restraint or restriction (open), arrange an area where face smashing is prohibited/encouraged/mandatory amongst invited and willing participants (Mobius or any other group with whatever rules you want to have) or just deliver pamphlets all by themselves (solo) so long as they get their job done (have fun). Aren't these great companies?

But when the workers can easily earn their paychecks (PP influence) where it doesn't involve face bashing with the employees of the other company, guess where they apply to? Where there isn't employees bashing faces in (Private/Solo). And now no one's working in G-Fang and you wonder why? Because the objective here is to earn paychecks (Compete).

Put simply, PP is a competitive mechanic, that's why it needs the proportionate equality that it lacks.