(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[Kristov]

You said ....'FD has the numbers, once the participants between Open and Solo are roughly close to one another or are appropriate to the threshold FD is comfortable with, that will be it. Plus, it's PP only.' in your post. That says the decision is based on numbers in open, not some parity between the modes.

Once again, do you read what you type at all?

I said it before, just a few posts up, and posted it in another thread Ziggy has, but this move to get people to play in Open is a dumbass incentive since it's pointless.

What is the bonus for doing PP in Open? The POWER gets more power points. What does this give the player? Exactly what they get right now, there is no change for the PLAYER at all, merits are still earned in exactly the same manner, amount and fashion. No credit rewards either, no toys as a reward, nothing but the Power getting more points, which leads to exactly what happens right now without that bonus to their power in the first place.

How do you collect this bonus? Playing in Open. What are the repercussions of playing in Open? The only chance of facing actual player opposition to your Power. Currently, that chance is a variable depending on which Power you pledge to and what systems you go to, but it's generally not very high. With this bonus being added, your odds of facing actual Player opposition increase by an unknown factor, but you can bet your sweet Aunt Agony's petunia's that it WILL increase dramatically for those Powers who currently field aggressive and trained PvP groups, of which some few do exist. So being in Open will be a rather dangerous proposition, and a bonus you can't collect on is an absolutely useless bonus. When said bonus actually gains you NO real reward in the first place, there's little incentive to switch to Open to try and get that bonus.

That is a dumbass incentive, because it's NOT an incentive, it's a fix to a real and present imbalance in the modes in regards to PP, that's all it is. SOME people will be inclined to stay in Open when doing PP instead of switching to Solo/Group, but only some. This fix will only be effective if ENOUGH people are in Open to take advantage of the bonus, which is something only FD can determine based on the metrics they get. Based on the metrics they have now, there's less people doing PP in Open than there are in Solo/Group, due to the ease of doing PP in those modes over Open, which is why the imbalance exists in the first place.

And that's why I argue against the fallacies that keep being presented about this idea but am against the idea myself, it's not an actual fix, it relies too much on people making a counter-intuitive choice that has no actual reward for them and instead offers much higher punishment odds. NOT something I see this community et al doing.

 

[Mohrgan]

You know what, read this and tell me what I care about:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238428

I have. What now? That doesn't change the fact that this suggestion, a bonus to PP influence in open, is not designed around parity between the modes. It's offered as a way to incentivize open solely to increase the population in open. That shouldn't happen. Open doesn't deserve propping up. It is nothing special. If you have a motivation use that motivation, and good arguments to support it. Don't use a smokescreen and some spin-doctoring to obfuscate a goal. It is obvious that that is exactly what this suggestion does. It tries to fool the players to benefit a pet peeve, that open is the official way to play the game.

 

[Apos]

Worst case scenario: People realize that open isn't as bad as they think and you don't get to find a murderer on every second jump as many like to fearmonger.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Parity is what FD has in mind for the modes, and in this case, PP the mechanic and its interaction with modes, the numbers will reflect whether the parity is proper or not. It's simple cause and effect. Parity causes the desirable distribution of players.

Hm? If the modes have parity when it comes to the mechanical side has nothing to do with how many people play in each mode. And modes can have no parity even when the population is even distributed. Unless its only about parity in population and not about parity gameplay-wise.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Parity causes the desirable distribution of players.

And what is the desirable distribution for (S/PG) and O ? 50:50 ? 25:75 ?

 

[DanaM]

Perhaps the best thing to do is for Sandro to implement it and see what happens.

I think not! It seems to me there is enough argument and sentiment against to warrant proceeding with caution/careful investigation rather than just going ahead to "see what happens."

If Frontier does go ahead with that as an experiment, hopefully they will at least advertise it as such which means having the experiment 'sunset' after a set time period.

Or they can just do what they want and player input be damned.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Hm? If the modes have parity when it comes to the mechanical side has nothing to do with how many people play in each mode. And modes can have no parity even when the population is even distributed. Unless its only about parity in population and not about parity gameplay-wise.

Under the competitive scope, there's a lack of parity. Thus population FD is comfortable with is being achieved by making the adjustment Sandro's proposing, at least experimenting for it.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

And what is the desirable distribution for (S/PG) and O ? 50:50 ? 25:75 ?

Hey, FD's got the number, not me.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I have. What now? That doesn't change the fact that this suggestion, a bonus to PP influence in open, is not designed around parity between the modes. It's offered as a way to incentivize open solely to increase the population in open. That shouldn't happen. Open doesn't deserve propping up. It is nothing special. If you have a motivation use that motivation, and good arguments to support it. Don't use a smokescreen and some spin-doctoring to obfuscate a goal. It is obvious that that is exactly what this suggestion does. It tries to fool the players to benefit a pet peeve, that open is the official way to play the game.

Hah, tell me you read again?

I agreed to no such thing, I said people trying to min-max their influence will come to Open at the cost of risk by direct player opposition. The Open population's increase is a natural development for those no longer coerced into private and solo with the change.

By your logic, private and solo are the official ways to play PP because the competitive scope coerced people into it. What good does that argument do? Nothing.

"Open is the official way to play the game?"

Seriously? Slippery slope anyone? Can you please go over the logical fallacy before committing one after another?

 

[Voiddancer]

Personally, with the suggestion as it stands, I can see the most time efficient method of grinding merits, for the benefit of your power, shifting to involve using a mixture of Open and Group/Solo modes as the situation demands. Those focused on maximising gains, via pve methods, will use systems with little opposition, and if that fails switch modes, as getting some merits is better than none at all from substantial opposition.

This will likely apply greatest to those who are fortifying, especially those who pay extra for cargo. Also if too much opposition is met all round, that nothing can get done, then nothing will change at all and groups/solo will remain the superior option. It's worth repeating that this proposed change would disproportionately benefit those who have trouble with instancing for whatever reason.

 

[Dave1235]

I think that is a much smaller problem for them to deal with compared to their p2p network along with the cost of them sending an it person to every players home that has router /upnp issues. Dont know how they are going to deal with situations like jockey has with a family all online unless they are going to pay to upgrade everyones broadband too. That would be a great deal buy ed on steam cheap and fd pay for top quality broadband for life along with indemnities for all players losses that ever get hacked after the point fd take over their network security. Lol. Go Sandro, need to borrow a tin opener for those worms. Nah looks like you are doing just fine. Right I am off to amazon to see what sort of router I can get for £5. Bet it won't be great or support upnp. I had better get two. I heard if you use two and double nat you stand twice as much chance of seeing other people. ......... or did I mix that bit up. time to buy networking for dummies
Edit was replying to agony aunts point about fd ensuring people stay in open for the whole time to get the bonus.

 

[Mohrgan]

Under the competitive scope, there's a lack of parity. Thus population FD is comfortable with is being achieved by making the adjustment Sandro's proposing, at least experimenting for it.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Hey, FD's got the number, not me.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Hah, tell me you read again?



By your logic, private and solo are the official ways to play PP because the competitive scope coerced people into it. What good does that argument do? Nothing.

"Open is the official way to play the game?"

Seriously? Slippery slope anyone? Can you please go over the logical fallacy before committing one after another?

I don;t believe the imbalance of population away from open has anything to do with PP rewards. The whole argument is based on the premise that playing in open, as a choice, requires some form of compensation for a perceived advantage in other modes. A perceived advantage you have easy and equal access to. Just play in Solo, if you think it's more beneficial. That sounds like a perfect solution that doesn't distract FD from content.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I think that is a much smaller problem for them to deal with compared to their p2p network along with the cost of them sending an it person to every players home that has router /upnp issues. Dont know how they are going to deal with situations like jockey has with a family all online unless they are going to pay to upgrade everyones broadband too. That would be a great deal buy ed on steam cheap and fd pay for top quality broadband for life along with indemnities for all players losses that ever get hacked after the point fd take over their network security. Lol. Go Sandro, need to borrow a tin opener for those worms. Nah looks like you are doing just fine. Right I am off to amazon to see what sort of router I can get for £5. Bet it won't be great or support upnp. I had better get two. I heard if you use two and double nat you stand twice as much chance of seeing other people. ......... or did I mix that bit up. time to buy networking for dummie
Edit was replying to agony aunts point about fd ensuring people stay in open for the whole time to get the bonus.

That argument is akin to FD should buy everyone beefy computers to match their expansion's increased requirement on PC specs, it's silly.

As for messing with p2p, there are implementation of the bonus that can get around the foreseeable cheating.

 

[Arkadi]

slipping on all the soap...

I cant but.... but what ?! this thread??!!


Blaze your own trail they said... alone or with others...



but this is stupid. some of us here in the thread need to go watch some southpark -.-


the one about addictive gameplay or the grind...(it was the canadians idea ofc)


... what is so important about some freakening bonus?! I fly where my power needs me - I try to be of some use and play with others and compete in my personal kind of roleplay way with others in this sandbox. I really couldnt care less about some bonus...

I want gamplay, I want rewarding player encounters - and in PowerPlay especially I think there is so much wrong (30 minutes foritfication ticks with no way to store the things, no way to get rid of bad systems, ships and weapons of all factions shared alike, no real consequence for crimes against own faction, factions rewarding absolut useless overfortifications, ...)

so why , really why care about a damn bonus. There are so many other, easyer ways to grind credits ...
Powerplay could have so much more to offer then mere grind - if it had more consistency and consequence. Cant get into detail, becous my brain hurts from reading this thread.

Goodnight, ladys and gentlmen.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I don;t believe the imbalance of population away from open has anything to do with PP rewards. The whole argument is based on the premise that playing in open, as a choice, requires some form of compensation for a perceived advantage in other modes. A perceived advantage you have easy and equal access to. Just play in Solo, if you think it's more beneficial. That sounds like a perfect solution that doesn't distract FD from content.

...

And paraphrasing in 3... 2... 1...

"As long as this issue doesn't concern me nor affect me in a negative way, it isn't an issue and isn't worth wasting the developers' time."

The advantage can't be perceived when it is a clear rational incentive to enter private and solo, there is no argument around it.

Players that like to play with other players competitively and cooperative has to enter solo/private to gain an edge that bars them from enjoying an uncontrolled environment which they deem to be a fun place to play the PP mechanic.

Competitive Edge [Yes]

Preferred Environment [No]

Players that like to play by themselves simply play in solo/private that has an edge and pertains to their preferred playstyle to play the PP mechanic.


Competitive Edge [Yes]

Preferred Environment [Yes]

Do you not see what is wrong here when devs make it clear that PP is a competitive mechanic and there should be an equal incentive in entering all modes to participate in PP?

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Under the competitive scope, there's a lack of parity. Thus population FD is comfortable with is being achieved by making the adjustment Sandro's proposing, at least experimenting for it.

Still don't see it. Lets say two powers fight over one system and lets say both Powers have the same amount of players fighting for them. If on both sides 70% of the players play in Solo and 30% of the players in Open you don't have an equal population between the modes but you do have parity between the two sides.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Still don't see it. Lets say two powers fight over one system and lets say both Powers have the same amount of players fighting for them. If on both sides 70% of the players play in Solo and 30% of the players in Open you don't have an equal population between the modes but you do have parity between the two sides.

Right, but that is under the assumption that 70% of the players chose solo because they enjoy it, not that they are being coerced into it due to competitive reasons. Which currently there is a competitive reason that makes Open less than other modes.

If all choices are presented with their own pros and cons that are relatively balanced, then we can secure that assumption.

 

[Ozram]

slipping on all the soap...

I cant but.... but what ?! this thread??!!


Blaze your own trail they said... alone or with others...



but this is stupid. some of us here in the thread need to go watch some southpark -.-


the one about addictive gameplay or the grind...(it was the canadians idea ofc)


... what is so important about some freakening bonus?! I fly where my power needs me - I try to be of some use and play with others and compete in my personal kind of roleplay way with others in this sandbox. I really couldnt care less about some bonus...

I want gamplay, I want rewarding player encounters - and in PowerPlay especially I think there is so much wrong (30 minutes foritfication ticks with no way to store the things, no way to get rid of bad systems, ships and weapons of all factions shared alike, no real consequence for crimes against own faction, factions rewarding absolut useless overfortifications, ...)

so why , really why care about a damn bonus. There are so many other, easyer ways to grind credits ...
Powerplay could have so much more to offer then mere grind - if it had more consistency and consequence. Cant get into detail, becous my brain hurts from reading this thread.

Goodnight, ladys and gentlmen.

Hey there . Good night! Morning for me
Anyway, the point is not to create a bonus as some raw incentive to go to open, but rather to make the various modes equitable by offsetting a known disadvantage to conducting pp activities in open.
That's the thread boiled down for you, with all the vitriol siphoned off.

 

[Midnight Sun]

Perhaps the best thing to do is for Sandro to implement it and see what happens.

Yeah I think so too. A lot of people are going to be unhappy when Open somehow isn't teeming with tuna or PP isn't suddenly exciting. Nothing will change except the two camps will be even more deeply entrenched, one side ready to defend their so-called bonus, the other to resist any further encroachment on their supposed equality.

And Sandro will have tomatoed himself with his hand grenade. Bring it on.

 

[Arkadi]

Thank you Ozram

In my opinion PowerPlay needs a good redesign in all the points stated to have an increase in powerplay players.

I dont believe its a thing about modes - its a thing about boring mechanics that could come from cheap browsergames (click and wait mechanics of fortifications) and not well thought out grind mechanics that just dont add to any strategical or immersion value (like overfortifications being rewarded). All this mechanics only reward tedious and unimaginative grinding. Thats why I dont play powerplay anymore. Still I do my trading and missions in open.

The only part of powerplay I take part in now is when I notice over reddit that there might me some serious drama and fighting over a system - usually opposing or fighting for an expansion. Most other things really need an overhaul.

So my opinion borken down is: PowerPlay needs a mechanics overhaul to get people back to powerplay. Not some discussion about people abusing modes for benefit. Thats bad too, but exploiters gonna exploit.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Right, but that is under the assumption that 70% of the players chose solo because they enjoy it, not that they are being coerced into it due to competitive reasons. Which currently there is a competitive reason that makes Open less than other modes.

If all choices are presented with their own pros and cons that are relatively balanced, then we can secure that assumption.

Not even FD knows the reason of any player why they chose the mode the chose, how could anybody know? So how can make changes based on something nobody can know?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Thank you Ozram

In my opinion PowerPlay needs a good redesign in all the points stated to have an increase in powerplay players.

I dont believe its a thing about modes - its a thing about boring mechanics that could come from cheap browsergames (click and wait mechanics of fortifications) and not well thought out grind mechanics that just dont add to any strategical or immersion value (like overfortifications being rewarded). All this mechanics only reward tedious and unimaginative grinding. Thats why I dont play powerplay anymore. Still I do my trading and missions in open.

The only part of powerplay I take part in now is when I notice over reddit that there might me some serious drama and fighting over a system - usually opposing or fighting for an expansion. Most other things really need an overhaul.

So my opinion borken down is: PowerPlay needs a mechanics overhaul to get people back to powerplay. Not some discussion about people abusing modes for benefit. Thats bad too, but exploiters gonna exploit.

My mechanical overhaul for PP

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238428

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Not even FD knows the reason of any player why they chose the mode the chose, how could anybody know? So how can make changes based on something nobody can know?

Because there is a rational reason for not entering Open that upsets the idea of equal incentives to all modes under the PP mechanic.