Why do all the PVP builds I see posted not use shields?

Derath

D
Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
Well, but said python fully slapped with SCB's for example will still be superior to the trading python, Also the python is a bad example, sinc eit is currently the only existign true multirole ship that can properly do anything at once. But a Miner if you ant to do basic mining needs at leats 4 internals to make any somewhat working mining setup + a wepaon slot for the beam. There is no way to mine without being hevaily gimped compared to a proper combat outfit in the same ship. Sure you can mine with just a single mining beam, and a low class refinery. Thats theoretical mining already, but thats isn't even any kind of proper mining. It's just wasting time.
The funny thing is, Elite doesn't have an PVE Server, it only has a single Palyer, a Co-op and a Open PVP Server.
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Yeah your right its difficult to make a mining setup without heavy compromise, but is it really any different to trying to make a combat setup mine? They are both really bad once you try and cross over, but equally its all about your goal right, if you are interdicted as a trader your goal shouldn't be to fight back (unless you went for a build like I mentioned) but to escape, and building to be able to escape doesn't compromise anyway near as much, infact its quite often easier to do so because you don't require the power for large weaponry.

You can put a prismatic on a clipper and run shield boosters you'll get away from anything short of a wing no problem, isn't that ok? Isn't that balanced? The real issue with the tradeships is the awful lakons and their woeful lack of anything like a cohesive balance system, nothing about them makes any sense unless they literally cost next to nothing.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
J
Alexander the Grape said:
Just because there's differing views, doesn't mean everyone's wrong. I actually have evidence to back up my views.

Take the FDL for instance, and compare the SCB performance of the FDL in 1.4 and 1.5.

in 1.4, a typical FDL build would look something like this: http://coriolis.io/outfit/fer_de_la...60404000000025j455e5466.AwRhrSutjo==.Aw18aQ==

Total shield strength: 550

Total recharge capacity(in 1.4): 1942

Now let's look at a shield focused build in 1.5: http://coriolis.io/outfit/fer_de_la...60404040400025j455e5466.AwRhrSuriA==.Aw18aQ==

Total shield strength: 707

Total recharge capacity: 1950

The power issues of needing multiple SCBs powered at once and the cost of having a utility slot as a heatsink is neatly solved by the additional power from the FDL buff, acting as a perfect testcase as to if the change in the meta is down to weak SCBs or other issues.

So here is a clear case where the previously dominant SCBs are not affected in the slightest, or even strengthened. If the issue was down to weak SCBs, this build would surely be omnipresent?

However, this build is incredibly rare compared to rail-spam silent running options.

This is due to the strength of the new build, not the weakness of the old: the old build has gotten stronger.​

The lack of diversity in the current meta is down to the strength and lack of counter of silent running FDLs and FASes, and the weakness of small ships.


Let's look at all current top tier PvP-viable ships:

FDL

FAS

Corvette

Cutter

Anaconda


The balance between these ships is exquisite, with all having a specific use, weak points and strong point. Here are the non-PvP viable/outclassed combat specialists:

FGS (Outclassed by Python)

Vulture (strictly worse than FAS)

Courier (strictly worse than FDL)

DBS (strictly worse than FDL)

Viper IV (Strictly worse than FDL)

Viper III (Strictly worse than FDL)

Asp Scout (would be viable but for massive hitbox and 2 utility slots)

Imp Eagle (outclassed by FDL)

Eagle (almost good enough flight model to be viable: too weak due to lack of internals and slow top speed)

Notice anything? All of them apart from the FGS (which will benefit greatly from SLFs) are *small* ships.

If small ships could outfly the FDL and FAS, this meta would solve itself.

I don't even think the FAS or FDL should be nerfed (maybe revert the FDL's flight model changes but that's it).

What's needed is for fighters to be strong and useful, with an actual utility role.

Oh, and nerf railguns
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Maybe just start with maneuverability buff to small ships and see how that affects the game rather than make 2 changes?
 

sewerratuk

sewerratuk
Majinvash said:
....
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That is a pretty good ship, not dissimilar to one I use except for the SCB.
Personally for trading, mining, etc. I prefer to try and get away rather than stand and fight.

But it always comes back to the same thing for most traders and miners, max everything out with cargo hold for max profit. Hence hugely increased chances of getting pirated/destroyed.

Just noticed the topic heading.... Sorry OP, off topic
 

Lowievisser

Lowievisser
tanman said:
games like Pokemon is proof that this statement is incorrect. No one single well made Pokemon team is better than the other, because they all have weaknesses and strengths, so its rock paper sizzors. In this game that is not true, there is no reason to use anything other than the best build. that kills variety, making the game stale. this game is just rock, and crap.
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mmh pokemon!
 

Lily from anim.o.v.e

Lily from anim.o.v.e
sewerratuk said:
That is a pretty good ship, not dissimilar to one I use except for the SCB.
Personally for trading, mining, etc. I prefer to try and get away rather than stand and fight.

But it always comes back to the same thing for most traders and miners, max everything out with cargo hold for max profit. Hence hugely increased chances of getting pirated/destroyed.

Just noticed the topic heading.... Sorry OP, off topic
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It's a python one of the onyl ships that actually can do this, But how many others can multirole like this? The python has enough power for everything wanted. Enough hardpoints to pew pew and mine, enough internals to mine and SCB and Prisma. But how many other ships are there? How good can the T7 do this? T7 is even a LARGE ship yet an entie downgrde. Ther eis a reaosnw hy python is so overused, because its badly balanced comapred to the other ships. But is this because python2stronk, or the others 2inferiorniche?
 
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Derath

D
Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
It's a python one of the onyl ships that actually can do this, But how many others can multirole like this? The python has enough power for everything wanted. Enough hardpoints to pew pew and mine, enough internals to mine and SCB and Prisma. But how many other ships are there? How good can the T7 do this? T7 is even a LARGE ship yet an entie downgrde. Ther eis a reaosnw hy python is so overused, because its badly balanced comapred to the other ships. But is this because python2stronk, or the others 2inferiorniche?
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You shouldn't compare anything to the T7 as its the worst ship in the game :p for so many reasons. There is a problem with Lakons, the rest of the ships can generally fulfill the task nominally while retaining decent protection.
 

Kondensat

K
HRP´s have NO drawback......thats the main issue imho
just stuff them in, enjoy huge damage taking possibilities, for NO energy use and negligible weight with the addition of stealth capabilities
just keep silent running on as long you need with maxed out weapon recharge

imho this is totally broken.

shield + SCBs are mostly worthless in contrast now
- always visible ship
- huge energy amount taken by shields
- extensive heat generation
- nerfed recharge and heat and energy usage makes u lose your shield MUCH faster as you cannot use several SCB´s at once anymore to counter high DPS damage weapons
- once your shield is down, ur toast in seconds, as only a mil spec bulkhead without HRP´s in addition are not much of a help, for a HUGE price

the whole game development of PVP combat made me leave this game
- flying skill is no issue. insta-hit weapons + reversing counter EVERY agile ships and good flying.
- silent running makes you nearly invulnerable and cannot be countered, even with better sensors (total bull     physics wise)
- missiles and torps are worthless (a hull tanked FAS can take a dozen of torps before doomed)
- etc

in addition PvE is TOO different from PvP combat....
fighting a human and fighting AI should feel pretty much the same.....so that you can run ONE loadout, that you get familiar with,
max your personal strategy for combat and use it.......
but AI is stupid (even after the buff). they also fly bad ships with paper shields and armour (only annoying loadouts are railguns loadouts with the magical "no heat and no ammo usage"-addon!)

flying skill is not rewarded in this game
 

Majinvash

Banned
Majinvash
Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
It's a python one of the onyl ships that actually can do this, But how many others can multirole like this? The python has enough power for everything wanted. Enough hardpoints to pew pew and mine, enough internals to mine and SCB and Prisma. But how many other ships are there? How good can the T7 do this? T7 is even a LARGE ship yet an entie downgrde. Ther eis a reaosnw hy python is so overused, because its badly balanced comapred to the other ships. But is this because python2stronk, or the others 2inferiorniche?
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I feel that unless we say ALL ships that are "multi-role" should be equally good at everything multi-role you wont be happy.

Ships I could design a miner build for that would survive 9/10 attacks and mine all day.

Cobra
Clipper
Python
Anaconda
DBS

Other multi-role ships just plain suck and are a bad choice for what could be a hostile environment.

**Strawman Activated**

It would be like having a BMW X8 and a Range Rover.
Bother are effectively mutli-role, I know which one I would take into a desert.

Just because you could, doesn't mean you should.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 

Lily from anim.o.v.e

Lily from anim.o.v.e
Majinvash said:
I feel that unless we say ALL ships that are "multi-role" should be equally good at everything multi-role you wont be happy.

Ships I could design a miner build for that would survive 9/10 attacks and mine all day.

Cobra
Clipper
Python
Anaconda
DBS

Other multi-role ships just plain suck and are a bad choice for what could be a hostile environment.

**Strawman Activated**

It would be like having a BMW X8 and a Range Rover.
Bother are effectively mutli-role, I know which one I would take into a desert.

Just because you could, doesn't mean you should.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
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your sense for balance equals the sense of colors of a blind from birth person.
 
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Majinvash

Banned
Majinvash
Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
your sense for balnce euql the sense of colors of a blind from birth person.
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Your spelling aside

Blind and Master of Balance!

omer-tunc-daredevil-copya.jpg


Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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NeilF

NeilF
Asp Explorer said:
That is why I find PVP so dull - you have to build for the current FOTM meta.
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This has always been my main issue with PvP and PvE in the game. And it seems it's only got worse. ie: The ship you'd take out for one, is risking being too out of whack with the other...

Still think SCBs should have been left as was, but their number of uses per X minutes limited. And a slight mod to chaff to make it less on/off effect. ie: Depended on range/time etc etc.
 
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tanman

tanman
Derath said:
This is completely incorrect actually, competitive pokemon players consistently use very similar pokemon with a couple of swap slots. Like look at this for example http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/teams/masters/ they aren't carbon copies, but you see the same in all of the top 8.

And trust me, I find that disappointing, but its the way of the world, it doesn't change that they should be striving for balance.
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The thing is with Pokemon, there is almost allways a way to counter a Pokemon team. those teams are just popular team setups, It really doesn't mean they are the best. but then again, you see more variety in those teams because even though they are similar, they are not identical. though im not the most competitive and astute Pokemon player so i might be wrong. there might be an "ideal" team, but they are not literally the same like in ED. The problem with ed as i tried to show in my example is that ED builds are EXACTLY the same, defeats the purpose of having custom anything IMO.

kofeyh said:
This is the thing. A weakness in a ship is sinful and unacceptable if it's a combat ship. If it's a transport/ general purpose then weakness is (even if not specifically started) intrinsically desired; the fact that one leads to preying on the other (as apposed to strong ships killing strong ships) isn't lost on this commander in the slightest.

And is partly why Open has been draining (powerplay and other mechanics that intrinsically benefit from solo, is the other). The thing is, Frontier does seem to be supporting strong builds with considerable DPS capability. I find it implausible that Frontier did not expect FDL to become 'the' combat ship. The changes suggest this was a desired outcome. Commanders seem to view Frontier as fairly benign and kindly; and assume Open was supposed to be the same.

Frontier are benevolent. To presume they aren't naturally supportive of PVP and general commander interaction - including a hail of bullets - is to perhaps not be paying attention, imho.
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so you are saying that only one effective build is what FD wanted? if that's what fd wants then okay. its fd's game. In my opinion that setup really kills variety, (though it takes more skill to run than SCB ill give you that) and lack of variety doesn't help this game at all.

If someone shows evidence of a build that can counter this FOTM effectively, or show evidence that there are other setups that are just as good as the FOTM, then ill change my mind.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -


Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
So we combine pokemon and elite and spore. + adding APB's customisations for our ships and caharacters and the X universe economy.
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BEST GAME EVAR !!!!!111!1!1

okay ill stop. :D
 

Lobstris

Lobstris
IMHO, stacking of any defensive techs (SCBs, boosters, chaff, armour, heat sinks, whatever) without too many penalties is still the heart of the game's combat problems. Hull reinforcement and bulkheads need a large increase in mass to affect jump range and mobility. Chaff needs a downgrade in effectiveness. Oh, and the AI still needs a buff (twiddling fingers till June...)
 

DaveB

DaveB
Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
...Combat wise every trader/miner is a gimped ship, thats the issue with the open gameplay, everoyne not coming in combat outfit turns into a toy of those with a combat outfit. And in bets case you can escape. Thats not fun or challanging thats pointless and boring. And so peopel don't go open. The Mobius group kinda proofes that there is a huge amount fo people wanting to play Elite in Multiplayer, but the curent system is not supporting any kind proper Multiplayer without letting a few guys terrorize and destroy the gameplay of others.
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Derath said:
People frequently forget though that the reason a miner/trader is a gimped ship is because they min/max as much as the combat players do, You can trade in a python with a A6 prismatic shield with full weaponry and you will be very PvP viable against a majority of encounters, you just took a hit to your trading capacity to be better at something else.

The only situation this doesn't stand up in is the Lakons, because lakon ships are so bad they cannot be setup to have any chance in combat, but that also applies to min-maxing for combat right? You can fill a T9 with enormous shield cells and all rails and its still worse than a cobra.

I think the only thing the current system is real proof of is if you make a huge discrepancy between the threat presented by players and AI you lead people to false expectations about what works and what doesn't :p (oh and that there is a reason why every mmo has pve and pvp servers seperate)
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You build your ship for what you want to do. Personally I favor multi-role hulls with an energy-heavy weapon loadout because I dont want to watch my ammo levels. That means I've got different concerns when I get into a fight than the railgun marksman. It doesn't mean I've got NO concerns. You CAN fit out a T6 or a T9 to hand out some serious smackdown and tank incoming fire from a similar-sized build forever. I'll admit up front that the T7 is a total dog and I've not been able to find ANY T7 build that is both viable for trading and survivable in a fight. The guy who wants to only fight other players will build a ship that is totally optimized for that. That's fine, and those of us in other ships will probably recognize those builds and run for the horizon because we don't want to get into a fight with them unless they show us clear evidence that our piloting skill will offset that disparity in ship loadout. Me, I wanna make the Cr so I trade. I also enjoy watching explosions, like a lot of PvP players do, so the ship I'm trading in has guns, shields and armor - and I DO like using them! That means I make a little extra on each trade run with bounty vouchers. But it also means you wont see me flying a min-maxed trader or combat ship. What I want is to keep playing and not be a sheep.
 

Derath

D
tanman said:
The thing is with Pokemon, there is almost allways a way to counter a Pokemon team. those teams are just popular team setups, It really doesn't mean they are the best. but then again, you see more variety in those teams because even though they are similar, they are not identical. though im not the most competitive and astute Pokemon player so i might be wrong. there might be an "ideal" team, but they are not literally the same like in ED. The problem with ed as i tried to show in my example is that ED builds are EXACTLY the same, defeats the purpose of having custom anything IMO.
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Look at the top 8 competitors in every bracket they probably use 10 pokemon between all 40 of them, out of the what, 550 available? Its no different to ED, ED builds are exactly the same in a wing, once you get down to the stuff that matters to me at least (1v1) most things are viable because its considerably easier to compensate for min-maxing once you reach that level. I used to regularly beat bounty-hunters in full PvP setup all day and I had no SCB's because i had collectors and cargo space for pirated loot and it was fine.

Not to say there isn't a problem with where the meta has gone at the moment or that it shouldn't be changed, just that we all like discussing this as benevolent outsiders but I'd wager you can still beat 95% of the playerbase with just about any build, min-maxing really only becomes a problem when you get to the most skilled or most dedicated.

And building ships for multi-role is all about compromise, I still run 2 large frags on my python, did I use them that often? No, they were serious pvp only, I didn't use them to pirate, or to farm at the BH zone, or trade, they sat in those weapon bays with the sole purpose of bringing the hurt when I had to defend against players, that was a compromise to everything else i was trying to do but its one I thought was worth it.
 
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