Why do all the PVP builds I see posted not use shields?

Thanks for the info - I was using gimbals (in a Python with 3 Lg Pulses) and the best ship I took out was a FAS. I had a clear shot at the top of the ship, and later a clear shot at the underside, so I think I may have just got lucky. Gonna have to get interdicted more :D

Cheers TheoZ


or do a little test with a friend of yours or smthg to get your own results you know!
 
or do a little test with a friend of yours or smthg to get your own results you know!

:D I'm not sure I have friends with full PvP builds, but I'm sure I can persuade one. This wasn't a serious experiment - just commenting from my experience.
 

dxm55

Banned
I really hope you're being sarcastic. CQC is atrocious, no serious pvper I know enjoys CQC. From what I can tell mainly only people who don't pvp in open like CQC.

You mean tank drivers don't like CQC because whoever gets a bead on the other's six first usually wins?

Come on now, in all seriousness. What you're really saying is that, it's more about who builds a better ship, wins.
That's not wrong really. But better in what?

Armaments? Armor? Stealth?

Right now, it's everything. There's no real min-maxxing in the traditional sense of the word.

Min-maxxing is usually a tradeoff between firepower vs armor, or speed vs armor, or maneuverability vs loadout
What ED has is Min-Cargo, Max-Pewpew.

You get max armor, max firepower, max stealth.... and minimum, well, nothing. Cargo doesn't count.
 

dxm55

Banned
As for HRPs stronger than shield, I disagree. It depends what ship you fly, and how you fly.

As long as you manage to keep your shield up and pop SCBs on time, shield is stronger than HRPs. Example: FdL full of shield boosters.

But if your shield drops before you use most of your SCBs, you'd better have equipped HRPs instead.

Now if the shield comes back online before the end of the fight, it's again another story.

Last but not least, the real imbalance to me is with the low class HRPs which provide almost as much hull points as the high class. It does not make any sense, but at least an armored DBS has some chance to do me some damage before I popped him with my armored FAS. Also, I still don't understand why there are no class 6 / 7 HRPs...


The thing about the shield is the SR. If you wanted to run a stealth ship, shields would be completely useless. Might as well throw it out and dump the largest fit HRP there.

Class 6/7 HRPs would mean even more hideously powerful (maybe overpowered) larger ships. Perhaps that is why FD limited it to Class 5, so as to make those players with larger slots think again about the sacrifices they would have to make when outfitting their ships. Would a Class 7 shield module be better than a Class 5 HRP?
 

dxm55

Banned
This meta isn't around because SCBs are undepowered. If anything, SCBs are stronger than before on the 1.4-dominant ships.

This meta evolved because of

a) heatsink buff (implemented to satisfy those who wanted to be able to use SCBs more)

b) FDL buff

c) Synthesis allowing for rail-spam

d) HRP buff

SCBs were NOT nerfed. They were made more complicated, more powerful, and more situational rather than the catch-all module for dominance.

The issue this meta has is that medium silent runners have no counter, not that SCBs are too weak.

The smart move would simply be to buff small ship's flight models so they could act as a counterbalance to stealth FDLs/FASes by being too small and agile to hit with kinetics or thermal/kinetics, while able to get close enough to nullify the stealth

That and nerf railguns or synthesis. When people are putting a class 2 weapon on a class 4 slot, you know something's up...

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Skill is one thing, but skills are diverse. This meta is unfortunate in that it crowds out some skills in favour of others by cutting down on ship variety.


Unlimited customization always brings out unintended consequences. I've seen that in other games which went that route, and then made a u-turn and ended up scaling back on customization.

There was this 3rd person space capital ship game which once allowed players to swap out weapons in their slots for anything, including armor/weaps from other factions. 3 factions: one excelled in armor, the other shields, and the third weapons. In the end, everyone fitted armor from faction 1 and weaps from faction 3. Every ship became the same, just different skins.

The devs wisely pulled back and allowed limited customization. Players could only swap beam weaps for other beam weaps, missiles for missiles, projectiles for projectile, and only the items from your own faction. The game was more balanced. No more ultimate builds. Everything had trade-offs.


Perhaps this is what ED can consider.
Firstly, limiting HRPs from stacking, ditto SCBs.
Then designating slots for certain types of weaps. Some slots can only fit beams, some projectiles, or some slots are limited to fixed or turret/gimballed.

You can never stop min-maxxing/metas as long as you have customization. But you can certainly control it via limiting the options.
Synthesis has only made it worse. But as long as some figures are hard-capped from getting out of control, it will still be manageable.
 
The fact that FD are bad at balancing shouldn't stop changes from being made, or requested :p

Of course not, but there is a bit of difference between asking, and demanding; its important to remember that FD can see portions of the roadmap, we can't. They also have a habit of overdoing changes. The fact that they often overdo changes will not be lost on anyone attempting to agitate for a change, knowing full well what the outcome is.
 
Unlimited customization always brings out unintended consequences. I've seen that in other games which went that route, and then made a u-turn and ended up scaling back on customization.

There was this 3rd person space capital ship game which once allowed players to swap out weapons in their slots for anything, including armor/weaps from other factions. 3 factions: one excelled in armor, the other shields, and the third weapons. In the end, everyone fitted armor from faction 1 and weaps from faction 3. Every ship became the same, just different skins.

The devs wisely pulled back and allowed limited customization. Players could only swap beam weaps for other beam weaps, missiles for missiles, projectiles for projectile, and only the items from your own faction. The game was more balanced. No more ultimate builds. Everything had trade-offs.


Perhaps this is what ED can consider.
Firstly, limiting HRPs from stacking, ditto SCBs.
Then designating slots for certain types of weaps. Some slots can only fit beams, some projectiles, or some slots are limited to fixed or turret/gimballed.

You can never stop min-maxxing/metas as long as you have customization. But you can certainly control it via limiting the options.
Synthesis has only made it worse. But as long as some figures are hard-capped from getting out of control, it will still be manageable.

Honestly, this is more about making changes, based on how they interact with other ships in the game. Which is the thing that is often (and some might argue conveniently) ignored during a spate of demands for changes. The gulf between FDL potential damage, and type-7 shields, illustrates that whilst you can definitely make a ship a pretty nice PVP machine (honestly the ferdi is just beautiful to drive now; it was always good, now it's exceptional) doing so without considering other ships is actually borderline irresponsible.

We have core trading ships that are basically compromised to such a degree as to be redundant for all but certain PVE actions; and to me that's a waste. We have a lot of ships and I'd like to see there be more reasons to diversify. Yes, there will always be the 'optimal' PVP ship and build; but it would be great to see there being 3-4 equally viable ships; based on differing reasons. Basically it's ferdi for silent running and fas for hull.

That's okay though; commanders will fixate on a particular attribute and suddenly another ship will become the new blue; it's how it seems to work out at present.
 
Nearly every competitive game will have some sort of FOTM/'Flavour of the now' build/spec/loadout. If it involves numbers, people will do their utmost best to min-max it. ;)

games like Pokemon is proof that this statement is incorrect. No one single well made Pokemon team is better than the other, because they all have weaknesses and strengths, so its rock paper sizzors. In this game that is not true, there is no reason to use anything other than the best build. that kills variety, making the game stale. this game is just rock, and crap.
 
Last edited:

dxm55

Banned
Honestly, this is more about making changes, based on how they interact with other ships in the game. Which is the thing that is often (and some might argue conveniently) ignored during a spate of demands for changes. The gulf between FDL potential damage, and type-7 shields, illustrates that whilst you can definitely make a ship a pretty nice PVP machine (honestly the ferdi is just beautiful to drive now; it was always good, now it's exceptional) doing so without considering other ships is actually borderline irresponsible.

We have core trading ships that are basically compromised to such a degree as to be redundant for all but certain PVE actions; and to me that's a waste. We have a lot of ships and I'd like to see there be more reasons to diversify. Yes, there will always be the 'optimal' PVP ship and build; but it would be great to see there being 3-4 equally viable ships; based on differing reasons. Basically it's ferdi for silent running and fas for hull.

That's okay though; commanders will fixate on a particular attribute and suddenly another ship will become the new blue; it's how it seems to work out at present.


The thing is that, in a game that contains assets, or ships/fighters (whatever), with fixed weapons and capabilities, they are already more often than not balanced against each other. The devs have full control over configuration of the ships, and all the player can do is to work out viable tactics or gameplay to get an advantage. "Meta"-ing still exists, but players will seek to exploit tactics or maybe even bugs in the game.

Once you have customization, you simply introduce more variables into the game. Along with tactics and exploits, you also now get potentially overpowered builds.


For a game like ED, that's unavoidable. After all, outfitting your ship has always been a core part of the game since the original. So FD has to carefully consider what kind of modules or weapons they put in the game.

IMO, stuff like HRPs and SCBs are always a mistake. In a pure combat game, these things will be fine. After all, the main objective of the game would be to kill each other. But then again the lack of consequences for loading up on HRPs can be somewhat baffling from a balancing perspective... even if this was a pure PVP combat game. Why?

You get all of the additional armor, and you lose cargo space which is irrelevant for combat... but then again, you also lack the balance of the traditional three main stats of combat ships:

Firepower vs Armor/Durability vs Speed/agility.

With HRPs, your firepower isn't affected, neither is your speed or agility. But your armor gets a huge boost. So everybody does the same thing. Plus you get the option to get a stealth ship, simply because you have armor to mitigate a lack of shield.

It's a win-win. Absolutely no drawbacks. There's no min-maxing here. At all.
Where's the glass cannon? Where's the stealth ship that has paper armor, or maybe moves like a pregnant pig?
In ED, you get a Ninja wearing bullet proof armor, and wielding a silenced minigun.


So now, Elite isn't a pure combat game. And once you unleash unbalanced HRPs and SCBs in to the mix, you are more than likely to make all other roles victims of these kinda builds.

But if you remove HRPs or SCBs, or maybe just disallow stacking, you would reduce the huge difference in stats these ships have. They would still be stronger than multi-purpose or cargo outfitted ships, but not glaringly so like present.
 
Last edited:
games like Pokemon is proof that this statement is incorrect. No one single well made Pokemon team is better than the other, because they all have weaknesses and strengths, so its rock paper sizzors. In this game that is not true, there is no reason to use anything other than the best build. that kills variety, making the game stale. this game is just rock, and crap.

This is the thing. A weakness in a ship is sinful and unacceptable if it's a combat ship. If it's a transport/ general purpose then weakness is (even if not specifically started) intrinsically desired; the fact that one leads to preying on the other (as apposed to strong ships killing strong ships) isn't lost on this commander in the slightest.

And is partly why Open has been draining (powerplay and other mechanics that intrinsically benefit from solo, is the other). The thing is, Frontier does seem to be supporting strong builds with considerable DPS capability. I find it implausible that Frontier did not expect FDL to become 'the' combat ship. The changes suggest this was a desired outcome. Commanders seem to view Frontier as fairly benign and kindly; and assume Open was supposed to be the same.

Frontier are benevolent. To presume they aren't naturally supportive of PVP and general commander interaction - including a hail of bullets - is to perhaps not be paying attention, imho.
 
The thing is that, in a game that contains assets, or ships/fighters (whatever), with fixed weapons and capabilities, they are already more often than not balanced against each other. The devs have full control over configuration of the ships, and all the player can do is to work out viable tactics or gameplay to get an advantage. "Meta"-ing still exists, but players will seek to exploit tactics or maybe even bugs in the game.

Once you have customization, you simply introduce more variables into the game. Along with tactics and exploits, you also now get potentially overpowered builds.


For a game like ED, that's unavoidable. After all, outfitting your ship has always been a core part of the game since the original. So FD has to carefully consider what kind of modules or weapons they put in the game.

IMO, stuff like HRPs and SCBs are always a mistake. In a pure combat game, these things will be fine. After all, the main objective of the game would be to kill each other. But then again the lack of consequences for loading up on HRPs can be somewhat baffling from a balancing perspective... even if this was a pure PVP combat game. Why?

You get all of the additional armor, and you lose cargo space which is irrelevant for combat... but then again, you also lack the balance of the traditional three main stats of combat ships:

Firepower vs Armor/Durability vs Speed/agility.

With HRPs, your firepower isn't affected, neither is your speed or agility. But your armor gets a huge boost. So everybody does the same thing. Plus you get the option to get a stealth ship, simply because you have armor to mitigate a lack of shield.

It's a win-win. Absolutely no drawbacks. There's no min-maxing here. At all.
Where's the glass cannon? Where's the stealth ship that has paper armor, or maybe moves like a pregnant pig?
In ED, you get a Ninja wearing bullet proof armor, and wielding a silenced minigun.


So now, Elite isn't a pure combat game. And once you unleash unbalanced HRPs and SCBs in to the mix, you are more than likely to make all other roles victims of these kinda builds.

But if you remove HRPs or SCBs, or maybe just disallow stacking, you would reduce the huge difference in stats these ships have. They would still be stronger than multi-purpose or cargo outfitted ships, but not glaringly so like present.

So I wrote a bunch of stuff, and then realised it was pointless.

SCB/ HRM is purely for survivability; it has little to do with the massive gulf between fast high DPS ships and trade ships, which is where the differences are pronounced the most; PVP people shooting each other don't care, and never really have, beyond debates over how this influences time-to-kill. That gulf in damage potential, combined with the limp crime model, along with powerplay synergies (in solo) is pretty much draining open of people.
 
Last edited:
No ship or loadout is bad for everything, unless you're actually TRYING to gimp it. You can min-max your build for a particular role or you can do what I do - build your ship for your play style. They tend to be more fun to fly that way.
 

dxm55

Banned
So I wrote a bunch of stuff, and then realised it was pointless.

SCB/ HRM is purely for survivability; it has little to do with the massive gulf between fast high DPS ships and trade ships, which is where the differences are pronounced the most; PVP people shooting each other don't care, and never really have, beyond debates over how this influences time-to-kill. That gulf in damage potential, combined with the limp crime model, along with powerplay synergies (in solo) is pretty much draining open of people.


But PVP builds in a not-so-PVP game also affects the game in general. Ultimately this is not just a combat game. It's a game about combat, exploration, trading.
As I said, if HRP already skews the firepower vs armor vs speed/agility equation in PVP, it would do worse for those other players who are not inclined to PVP.
 
games like Pokemon is proof that this statement is incorrect. No one single well made Pokemon team is better than the other, because they all have weaknesses and strengths, so its rock paper sizzors. In this game that is not true, there is no reason to use anything other than the best build. that kills variety, making the game stale. this game is just rock, and crap.

This is completely incorrect actually, competitive pokemon players consistently use very similar pokemon with a couple of swap slots. Like look at this for example http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/teams/masters/ they aren't carbon copies, but you see the same in all of the top 8.

And trust me, I find that disappointing, but its the way of the world, it doesn't change that they should be striving for balance.
 
Last edited:
So I wrote a bunch of stuff, and then realised it was pointless.

SCB/ HRM is purely for survivability; it has little to do with the massive gulf between fast high DPS ships and trade ships, which is where the differences are pronounced the most; PVP people shooting each other don't care, and never really have, beyond debates over how this influences time-to-kill. That gulf in damage potential, combined with the limp crime model, along with powerplay synergies (in solo) is pretty much draining open of people.

Survivability is the only counter against damage, and so it is ontop of the dps ships vs tradehips what widens the gap. A combat ship has more dps, a trade ship less. Firts big imabalance. Ontop the combat ship slaps more survivability becaue cargo can be turned into survivability. And this just creates a scenario where any trader or miner is basically trying to fight windmills should he ever consider fighting as a reaction. It's up to frontier finding a proper balanc,e why does a T9 with a C8 shield has less than half the shieldpower thana cutter? A proper balance already knows the T9 has only poopy hardpoints, so balance would dictate the T9 having much better shields to offset this. But no FD puts "price" as blanace factor into the game. Which is one fo the worst thinsg ever and ultimately makes the T9 inferior to the cutter in any way. Why should a T9 not have better shields as a cutter? The T9 would not steal a cutters role in terms of firepower ever with the puny hardpoints it has.
I really start to wonder about the panther clipper, and how the lroe says they ignore smaller pirate vessels due to their firepower just bouncing off the shields. I don't think the current "balance" will make such thing possible, any ship with 4 PA hardpoints will be able to break those shields. FD needs to reconsider some ships and their multipliers, their roles and proper ups and downs.

No ship or loadout is bad for everything, unless you're actually TRYING to gimp it. You can min-max your build for a particular role or you can do what I do - build your ship for your play style. They tend to be more fun to fly that way.

Combat wise every trader/miner is a gimped ship, thats the issue with the open gameplay, everoyne not coming in combat outfit turns into a toy of those with a combat outfit. And in bets case you can escape. Thats not fun or challanging thats pointless and boring. And so peopel don't go open. The Mobius group kinda proofes that there is a huge amount fo people wanting to play Elite in Multiplayer, but the curent system is not supporting any kind proper Multiplayer without letting a few guys terrorize and destroy the gameplay of others.
 
Combat wise every trader/miner is a gimped ship, thats the issue with the open gameplay, everoyne not coming in combat outfit turns into a toy of those with a combat outfit. And in bets case you can escape. Thats not fun or challanging thats pointless and boring. And so peopel don't go open. The Mobius group kinda proofes that there is a huge amount fo people wanting to play Elite in Multiplayer, but the curent system is not supporting any kind proper Multiplayer without letting a few guys terrorize and destroy the gameplay of others.

People frequently forget though that the reason a miner/trader is a gimped ship is because they min/max as much as the combat players do, You can trade in a python with a A6 prismatic shield with full weaponry and you will be very PvP viable against a majority of encounters, you just took a hit to your trading capacity to be better at something else.

The only situation this doesn't stand up in is the Lakons, because lakon ships are so bad they cannot be setup to have any chance in combat, but that also applies to min-maxing for combat right? You can fill a T9 with enormous shield cells and all rails and its still worse than a cobra.

I think the only thing the current system is real proof of is if you make a huge discrepancy between the threat presented by players and AI you lead people to false expectations about what works and what doesn't :p (oh and that there is a reason why every mmo has pve and pvp servers seperate)
 
Last edited:
People frequently forget though that the reason a miner/trader is a gimped ship is because they min/max as much as the combat players do, You can trade in a python with a A6 prismatic shield with full weaponry and you will be very PvP viable against a majority of encounters, you just took a hit to your trading capacity to be better at something else.

The only situation this doesn't stand up in is the Lakons, because lakon ships are so bad they cannot be setup to have any chance in combat, but that also applies to min-maxing for combat right? You can fill a T9 with enormous shield cells and all rails and its still worse than a cobra.

I think the only thing the current system is real proof of is if you make a huge discrepancy between the threat presented by players and AI you lead people to false expectations about what works and what doesn't :p (oh and that there is a reason why every mmo has pve and pvp servers seperate)

Well, but said python fully slapped with SCB's for example will still be superior to the trading python, Also the python is a bad example, sinc eit is currently the only existign true multirole ship that can properly do anything at once. But a Miner if you ant to do basic mining needs at leats 4 internals to make any somewhat working mining setup + a wepaon slot for the beam. There is no way to mine without being hevaily gimped compared to a proper combat outfit in the same ship. Sure you can mine with just a single mining beam, and a low class refinery. Thats theoretical mining already, but thats isn't even any kind of proper mining. It's just wasting time.
The funny thing is, Elite doesn't have an PVE Server, it only has a single Palyer, a Co-op and a Open PVP Server.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
I have a completely different opinion. The way I see it, CQC is unskilled because whoever shoots first typically wins a 1v1. If I see you first you're dead. If you see me first I'm dead. You die so fast in CQC that if someone gets behind you you'll be dead by the time you turn around. It's nothing like open play, where fights last several minutes. let your guard down for a second and you die...

But thats really just the tip of iceberg when it comes to CQC being utterly awful. Add in OP high lvl weapons and ship modules, awful queue times, and solo queuers being put with group queues in basically every single match and you have a recipe for anti-fun. What makes it even worse is the fact that groups are matched against solo queues in so called "free for all" and the group just realizes who the best pilot in the game is, and just focus on them every single time. It's stupid because I queue as SOLO for FREE FOR ALL, and ITS A FREAKING 5 V 1. like OK FD. And people wonder why I say CQC is terrible and I won't touch it.

PVP in open is pretty slow (as opposed to CQC where you spawn and 5 people are shooting you from behind, 5 seconds later you die and respawn with enemies behind you again), but at least in Open the most experienced and skilled player can typically win.

Yes you can get advantages from numbers and superior builds in open play, but those problems are honestly much worse in CQC.

CQC Is just cod in space. No skill required, it's just the E: D equivalent of run n gun gameplay.

I'd rather have a buffalo take a diarrhea dump in my ear than play CQC ;)
 
Back
Top Bottom