I do hope Season 2 helps Piracy - Today's experience just confirms to me it doesn't work very well...

[Aewarin Jameson]

I've noticed in the half dozen times I've done this over the past few days, most did not respond, and of those that have, they don't know how to Wing up...

With all due respect to FD their inface is terrible .. To wing up you need to know to go into the comms panel (2) press escape (to get to the root menu rather than chat (3) move up/down to find the right player (4) move right to initiate the menu (5) select accept wing.

To anyone who has done this before it's probably second nature .. but to everyone else it's not well done.


GUI design and user interface development is an artform (not something I have mastered - my apps are personal and just for me so I don't care about them being user friendly)

 

[Derath]

And they mitigated it by adding the option of private groups.
And they buffed their EULA, because even a "keep out" sign does not stop some individuals from trespassing.

*Piracy* is part of the core game design. It's not spectacularly well implemented, but the sheer fact that there's hundreds and thousands of NPC Pirates in the bubble should be a pretty good indication.
And 200ly out of the bubble, there's still systems that haven't even been honk-scanned by anyone (Main Star still undiscovered). No Players, no NPCs - mode you're in doesn't even matter. Could call it the ultimate escapism in an escapism.

Yeah but its like I said they are lazy, I genuinely can't see how increasing how much cargo NPCs carry would have had any impact on anything other than piracy, or would be hard to implement, but they have obstinately refused to make any changes to improve piracy other than collector limpets lol, even the easy ones.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Yeah but its like I said they are lazy, I genuinely can't see how increasing how much cargo NPCs carry would have had any impact on anything other than piracy, or would be hard to implement, but they have obstinately refused to make any changes to improve piracy other than collector limpets lol, even the easy ones.

Without knowing exactly how hard or easy things are to implement (without breaking other things .. I did not mention "but that seems highly exploitable" as response to some suggestions in order to slight/refute the suggestion), I would say all people are lazy.

Some pages back: insurance for cargo - it's even in the menu!
But if you only have to pay 10% on loss and the "pirate" gets all the cargo, there's nothing stopping players from just cargo swapping all night long.
"Piracy" will then become the new "Robigo" (the amount of cheesy exploits and bragging about those exploits is mind-boggling), where you sit with your friend in an instance and pirat each other for risk free money.

 

[Goose4291]

Even without the dreaded combat log, it's way to easy to avoid piracy using legitimate in game mechanics such as normally Disconnecting, submit and low or high wake (dependent on mass), solo or private modes etc.

When added to the fact compared with other playstyles it's not really profitable, it's understandable why players who bought the game on the premise of being a space pirate (which we were told would be viable) would feel a little seen off by frontier.

 

[Robert Maynard]

When added to the fact compared with other playstyles it's not really profitable, it's understandable why players who bought the game on the premise of being a space pirate (which we were told would be viable) would feel a little seen off by frontier.

Even if piracy were to be significantly enhanced, Frontier cannot force players to want to play the role of prey for the pirates who preferentially select players as prey (rather than NPCs).

 

[Derath]

Without knowing exactly how hard or easy things are to implement (without breaking other things .. I did not mention "but that seems highly exploitable" as response to some suggestions in order to slight/refute the suggestion), I would say all people are lazy.

Some pages back: insurance for cargo - it's even in the menu!
But if you only have to pay 10% on loss and the "pirate" gets all the cargo, there's nothing stopping players from just cargo swapping all night long.
"Piracy" will then become the new "Robigo" (the amount of cheesy exploits and bragging about those exploits is mind-boggling), where you sit with your friend in an instance and pirat each other for risk free money.

yeah some of the ideas are probably too much work, but I have a very very hard time believing that NPC cargo isn't just a series of variables or a fixed setting considering they have such predictable cargo. Its another framework issue though right? No idea why they chose this framework if they cannot change even the slightest thing without it going horribly wrong

 

[Goose4291]

Even if piracy were to be significantly enhanced, Frontier cannot force players to want to play the role of prey for the pirates who preferentially select players as prey (rather than NPCs).

And therein lies a lot of the problems with it also.

With the modern min/max grinding gamer and the culture it generates, why would someone risk losing 10t of their 500t load in a player interaction when they can avoid it by entering a different game mode and get a safe reward that spreads across all 3 modes?

The only way I can see to fix that would be to split the commanders across each mode (so each player gets one for private and solo and another commander for open).

But we all know where that conversations going to go...

 

[Boomer Kay]

yeah some of the ideas are probably too much work, but I have a very very hard time believing that NPC cargo isn't just a series of variables or a fixed setting considering they have such predictable cargo. Its another framework issue though right? No idea why they chose this framework if they cannot change even the slightest thing without it going horribly wrong

That's true.
Pretty much in the same ballpark as NPC Pirates wondering how I make a living in my bountyhunter ship in a Res.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The only way I can see to fix that would be to split the commanders across each mode (so each player gets one for private and solo and another commander for open).

Even that would not necessarily fix it. Players would, probably, choose not to trade in areas where other players were. If playing trader is no fun then players won't play as traders as much.

 

[NeilF]

Even if piracy were to be significantly enhanced, Frontier cannot force players to want to play the role of prey for the pirates who preferentially select players as prey (rather than NPCs).

Which of course is fine...

But one would hope if better mechanics were put in, it would maybe make OPEN a more favourable environment for more players.

ie: If more "victims" knew that although they might have to give up some of their cargo, or even risk damage with their cargo being taken by force (if they choose to run), but not just mindless destruction for the lolz, they might be willing to play in OPEN for the experience it can offer. And if pirates had a better experience, then they may too find it more rewarding. More traders in open = more pirates in open = more bounty hunders in open = more dynamic environment surely for all?


If we consider Crime and Punishment improvements as a done deal - I think they're coming along in Season 2? - then that to me means if only EXIT to menu/desktop was enhanced such its countdown was shown/broadcast to all CMDRs in the instance, that alone I feel would help alot. ie: Both parties would feel more happy about their standing in the game. Traders would fear mindless destruction less. Pirates would fear 15 seconds EXITs less.

That said, I'm no piracy expert, but it does seem even just a small change like that ontop of a Crime and Punishment rethink could really help.


ps: I'd then like to see Piracy then the attention I think it's due as one of the cornerstone professions of the game. eg: A rating/reputation, which ultimately can lead to better paying black markets and even more interesting missions?

 

[Goose4291]

Even that would not necessarily fix it. Players would, probably, choose not to trade in areas where other players were. If playing trader is no fun then players won't play as traders as much.

And therein lies the challenge to the pirate. If your prey moves watering hole, you have to follow suite.

And I get what you mean regarding traders and 'not fun' side of things. However that's not going to change because to a lot of people, if you dont have an I-win button over the other party, they're not interested.

 

[Majinvash]

You also won't get very far with the frothing anti-pvp response because by merely posting it your giving them great enjoyment, I know If i was really into smurfing the noobs in the start area reading something like that would be better than a good week of noob tears. Its the trolling scale right? Trolling somebody who doesn't care is like a 2/10, but trolling somebody who is enraged as you seem to be would be 11/10.

As one of the above mentioned players, Atrer you are making my day better with each post! Please continue!


Back on subject

I am seeing a lot of comments that piracy doesn't work in ED.

From personal experience, The actual act of Piracy works just fine.

If you take into account what I mentioned earlier about why its broken at a game/mechanics level.

The problem comes from the traders expectation of what a pirate should be like, which has caused most of the issues.

Interdict, make demands and threaten with exciting in game violence.

Reap rewards / Fight and lose / Fight and reap rewards / send them to the rebuy screen.

All of these niceties are not going to fix that issue because its unenforceable.
The soon to arrive crime and punishment changes, will not stop a pirate pirating and in truth, unless its "Division" level punishing.
I cannot see it making any difference that solo players feel safer just because there is a new icon saying what might happen.
Without making magic, gamey mechanisms to support them.

The issue you need to remove, is what players perceive as "griefing".
Sadly some people feel griefed by an interdiction.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Atrer]

Aye, I'm the one who isn't comprehending the problem.

I've already explained it to you. It would help both traders and pirates. I can't put it simpler. Less rebuy screens for the traders easier cargo for the pirates potentialy more pirates instead of striaght up PKers.

But explain to me what I'm not getting here.

LOL. Ok, convince me that your solution will bring trading and exploration players back into open. How will your solution entice those players to enter open for the first time?

The solution you offer is completely laughable to me. And, I believe, I am much more reasonable than the hard-core PvE players. I actually played open for about two months in a T7. The other commanders that I encountered in open were VERY persuasive in convincing me to join Mobius. With the completely laughable crime and punishment system of FD and the way that system caters to only the Player-Killer crowd. So, convince me that your solution would entice players back into open. Because, as it stands, I am NOT enticed even in the slightest.

 

[who?]

The attitude of some players towards piracy in this game will never cease to baffle me.

Space pirates (actual pirates who stop ships and attempt to rob them, not people who interdict you, go ARRRRR in chat and then proceed to blow your face off for giggles) are probably one of the most longstanding and embedded tropes in all of science fiction. I'm not saying there's anything especially noble about what is essentially theft, that would be ridiculous, but it is absolutely something that I would expect to see in an open space game and as a play style it is completely valid.

Why else would FD have taken the trouble to code gear which is specifically used for piracy? I mean is there a secet hidden purpose for hatch breaker limpets that I'm not aware of over and above their ability to err.. break cargo hatches?

Yours sincerely
Puzzled of Sol.

IMO: I don't care if piracy is a Valid(tm) role. Or if it's Griefing(tm).

It just doesn't make any sense to me to play a game where I play the victim to someone else's criminal. Sure, I could weapon and shield up and fight back, but then I'm playing their way instead of mine. I've played sports game before, and sim-style games, and games too which involved combat. But in all those games we were all playing the same way, not an asymmetric game where traders/miners/explorers get pirated or destroyed and have not much way of fighting back other than abandoning their choice of play-style.

If some traders enjoy the thrill of likely being attacked while busy in some other activity, great. For me it has zero appeal. Zip. Nada. Bupkis.

I've tried to think of ways of reducing the risk for non-PVP players in Open while still allowing illegal gameplay (and I've suggested some). If I can pick my own risk/reward level, great! It'd be a great thrill to run the gauntlet by taking a shortcut through the pirate-infested Badlands and see if I make it to the far side. But if I can be attacked anywhere, anytime, when doing anything.. no thanks.

 

[Jethzk]

Voice attack or any of the other 3rd party programs commonly used?

Noninvasive macro programs that simulate mouse and keyboard and are totally in line with the eula are in use since .. the late 90ies?

With VR the problem is even worse, because even if you have the keyboard there, you can't really use it that well, since you're blind to the real world.

I played team fortress 2 pretty extensively and all the communication hotkeys are ever used for on public servers is to spam. 0 actual communication value.
I doubt anyone would really take a spammed default hotkey message with "i surrender" seriously here, either.

Neverwinter nights had a quick communication panel and as someone who used that panel for years, I'm fully behind the idea. If your counter argument is spam, I have to say it's a poor argument. The same thing can be done by pressing enter and pasting text in. It's equivalent to me saying we shouldn't be able to type because people might say inappropriate things. If anything it's an argument to be able to mute players.

Quick comm messages could be a vital asset for the community. I really hope they implement it.

 

[Starkiller_]

And yet people glaze over the fact that he logged out. Amazing. Now I shall await to see people that defend cheaters, sure piracy does need work but being shot at and then logging out? Not cool.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which of course is fine...

But one would hope if better mechanics were put in, it would maybe make OPEN a more favourable environment for more players.

ie: If more "victims" knew that although they might have to give up some of their cargo, or even risk damage with their cargo being taken by force (if they choose to run), but not just mindless destruction for the lolz, they might be willing to play in OPEN for the experience it can offer. And if pirates had a better experience, then they may too find it more rewarding. More traders in open = more pirates in open = more bounty hunders in open = more dynamic environment surely for all?


If we consider Crime and Punishment improvements as a done deal - I think they're coming along in Season 2? - then that to me means if only EXIT to menu/desktop was enhanced such its countdown was shown/broadcast to all CMDRs in the instance, that alone I feel would help alot. ie: Both parties would feel more happy about their standing in the game. Traders would fear mindless destruction less. Pirates would fear 15 seconds EXITs less.

That said, I'm no piracy expert, but it does seem even just a small change like that ontop of a Crime and Punishment rethink could really help.


ps: I'd then like to see Piracy then the attention I think it's due as one of the cornerstone professions of the game. eg: A rating/reputation, which ultimately can lead to better paying black markets and even more interesting missions?

Maybe.

Adding to the options available to the pirate to relieve the target of their cargo would probably enhance the pirate's enjoyment of the experience. I don't really see where the "fun" is for the trader in this scenario though - making the experience less bad (still with the possibility of being destroyed regardless) does not necessarily make it good.

I doubt that Crime and Punishment is a "done deal" - we haven't even had the Beta of 2.1 yet.

Advertising that a player was in the process of using the 15-second-graceful-exit feature might possibly have an effect on pirate behaviour - although I expect that it is not advertised simply because it would be a "shoot-me" flag telling other players in the instance that they had 15 seconds to shoot at the player without any retaliation.

 

[Goose4291]

And yet people glaze over the fact that he logged out. Amazing. Now I shall await to see people that defend cheaters, sure piracy does need work but being shot at and then logging out? Not cool.

No one's glazed over that. However that's Frontiers remit to punish or what not.

 

[Starkiller_]

No one's glazed over that. However that's Frontiers remit to punish or what not.

Which they won't as always. Remember the Sub-Reddit that had a list of over 100 combat loggers? All the evidence was provided but nothing would be done, pity it was removed but my point stands I believe FDev should take combat logging a lot more seriously, 15 second timer or not.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Neverwinter nights had a quick communication panel and as someone who used that panel for years, I'm fully behind the idea. If your counter argument is spam, I have to say it's a poor argument. The same thing can be done by pressing enter and pasting text in. It's equivalent to me saying we shouldn't be able to type because people might say inappropriate things. If anything it's an argument to be able to mute players.

Quick comm messages could be a vital asset for the community. I really hope they implement it.

That was not my entire counter argument .. and it was not really a counter argument against quick comms as such, more at the notion that they solve all communication issues, because they're easy to use.

If you want quick coms to be universally useful, you need to make them un-muteable. Otherwise -as per our examples-, you always have the loophole of "oops, didn't see the com, thought you were just trolololing".

That stupid "attention" ping in League of Legends is such a bright feature. Very usefull and intuitive, but un-muteable. You can mute anything but that. Even at high level professional play, you will find people that use it to "troll" their own teammates. It is that stupid.

tl;dr Quick comms good - stopping all communication issues they won't.

Remember the Sub-Reddit that had a list of over 100 combat loggers?

No, I don't.
One hundred combat loggers?
Sounds like combat logging is running rampant .. in a game with 1.4 million sold copies and about 7,000 players around CGs.

How many people are there around 17 Draconis? Robigo? I find your ill gained rank and wealth ... ermmm .. amusing.