How FD could make a lot more people play in open play

[Marra Morgan]

Rubbish.

In a straight fight between me in a combat optimised FdL and me in a non-combat optimised Asp - who would win? Me? Or me?

Same skill. Different equipment. Of course the me in the FdL would win. No contest.

Which illustrates that a PvP combat optimised vessel would naturally always be at some huge advantage, regardless of any perceived skill.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



No it isn't "fair". See my previous post. Remove skill from the equation altogether. What do you fly? Do you choose to interdict weaker equipped marks, equivalently equipped, or superiorly equipped marks? I rest my case.

Cheerz

The ship I fly is right there in my sig.
She's certainly not a "PvP combat optimised vessel", she's a pirate ship; her internals are filled with cargo holds, hatch and collector controllers, interdictor and a bi-weave shield. It's not heavily armed because I only want to disable a target, not blow it up. Against any proper PvP combat ship, I die very quickly unless I can run away. Sometimes I am hunter, sometimes I am hunted. Yes, I think that's fair.

 

[tagos]

was answering the OP's question, which you are not.

I've answered it in depth.

BTW, Your Moderator tag isn't showing by your Avatar. You might want to get that sorted.

 

[Rampant]

Running is not defeat. When you escape, you win!

Ok I'm half with you on that one. Ultimately it depends on whether there is a jerk PKing in the CG system and whether you can get through the next time or the next time to the station. Or not. My friend got killed twice trying just that, in as fully tooled up as his Asp could get. By a vastly better equipped PKer on a PK spree. Or "purge". Over 4 Million lost. For what? This game is simply a pastime we use for entertainment. Getting blown up twice by the same PKer doesn't qualify as fun, I'm afraid. The PKers will glibly assert "stay away from CGs if you want to be safe". So I'm now being denied some of the best content in return for playing in Open. That doesn't qualify as a win at all. And that's what motivated my friend to join Mobius and leave Open mode behind.

So what's this about trying to entice players back into Open?

Cheerz

Mark H

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

The ship I fly is right there in my sig.
She's certainly not a "PvP combat optimised vessel", she's a pirate ship; her internals are filled with cargo holds, hatch and collector controllers, interdictor and a bi-weave shield. It's not heavily armed because I only want to disable a target, not blow it up. Against any proper PvP combat ship, I die very quickly unless I can run away. Sometimes I am hunter, sometimes I am hunted. Yes, I think that's fair.

In which case I salute you and wish you well on your journey. You are exactly the type of player this game needs. Sadly, I now play in Mobius due directly to the actions of what I can only describe as selfish rewards making a mess on their own front doorstep.

Once again - you have my admiration. All the best.

Mark H

 

[tagos]

The ship I fly is right there in my sig.
She's certainly not a "PvP combat optimised vessel", she's a pirate ship; her internals are filled with cargo holds, hatch and collector controllers, interdictor and a bi-weave shield. It's not heavily armed because I only want to disable a target, not blow it up. Against any proper PvP combat ship, I die very quickly unless I can run away. Sometimes I am hunter, sometimes I am hunted. Yes, I think that's fair.

Kudos. If that's how PvP piracy was then it'd be great. It's the player who PvP for the Beavis and Butthead yuck yucks that spoil the experience for players like you.

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

I think the last thing open needs is solo players.

Solo players are where they need to be.
You really think they can handle an open game?

Open is on another level of gameplay. In this mode we got to be switched on, perma.
Get caught slacking and it can be very expensive. That's the whole point of it.
If I get ganked by a wing, that is my fault. End of.
How you gonna get that across to solo player? Impossible.


Open needs open players, it doesn't have them because there was an massive exodus last year.

 

[KevinMillican]

I played a lot of WoW many years ago, and one of the reasons it was so successful imo, was that you could tag/untag yourself for PvP. If you wanted to go about your business in an unmolested way you could do so. Within the same server, those wishing to PvP could flag themselves (by the push of a button) and notify everyone that he/she was available for PvP (and so be killable). Anyone unflagged (or green) was simply untargettable. Made life very straight forward for everyone. Something like this would render private groups & solo obsolete imo.

I proposed something similar to this with details a few weeks back, but I don't think many people saw it:-
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235461

I wish Frontier would try this (and other people's ideas) via beta testing outside the main game.
However, I also think there's much they could do by tweaking the existing game mechanics. A lower or capped rebuy cost when killed by a player is interesting; I prefer to play in Open but only do so when my current ship rebuy is less than 5 million. The fun of Open is outweighed if you have to grind for more than an hour to recover your losses, especially if it's just in a one-sided loss against a sole-purpose PvP ship build, without any roleplay or actual piracy.

 

[anikaiful]

A lot of players who've played this game have had to deal with Insurance at some point or another and it's very much part of the game.

"If you haven't seen the insurance screen, then you haven't been playing."

(And no, screenshots of those screens don't count )

Insurance tally so far, counting from since Prem.beta: 3 sideys, 1 Asp Explorer (slammed to station), 1 DBX (crashland w/o canopy), 1 Cutter (left landing computer unattended... embedded the ship in station wall).

 

[Weps]

The game simply needs more penalties for indiscriminate killing. Considering the game's size, there is such a small part of the game world where random killing should be heavily punished, and yet this doesn't happen. Criminals laugh at the fine and bounty values while the income potential is currently several orders of magnitude higher.

One of the arguments against harsh penalties has been that criminality should be a viable career option. To this I say, there is no reason for it not to be, as long as the game's mechanics are adjusted accordingly. For example, if the laughable 6k bounty for murder would be increased to 10 million, then a role-playing assassin should be paid 15 million to compensate.

 

[Lestenio]

You don't know that, and for that matter, neither do I. (We don't have the data to support it either way)

However, to me, the game is trying to please everyone

2 modes / views : open-PvP-Combat // open-PvE-Cooperative, and if you want to play solo turn off chat.

The comment was in response to removing solo and group and just having open.
So, I think it's safe to say it would be financial suicide, and probably result in FD having to give back refunds.

Open PvP and Open PvE would work (for me at least). But I don't speak for everyone.

There is no problem with the game trying to please everyone. The modes are what each and everyone of us bought and appeal to the widest possible gaming audience. And that's a good thing.

 

[Seonid]

Maybe it's just me but the endless discussions on this topic seem to be all about desperately trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I, like others, choose to play in Open and fully accept all that it brings, it's why we're there. Others perhaps want to remove the PvP element from the game and the very large Mobius private groups provide that. Others don't want to interact with anyone at all and they are happily playing in Solo. All these players can do that and even switch between modes if they are in the mood for something else. Freedom of choice is perceived as a problem now?

 

[Jypson]

Maybe it's just me but the endless discussions on this topic seem to be all about desperately trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I, like others, choose to play in Open and fully accept all that it brings, it's why we're there. Others perhaps want to remove the PvP element from the game and the very large Mobius private groups provide that. Others don't want to interact with anyone at all and they are happily playing in Solo. All these players can do that and even switch between modes if they are in the mood for something else. Freedom of choice is perceived as a problem now?

Indeed, it seems some CMDR's are curiously obsessed with how other people choose to play this game and have a strong opinion on that matter for some reason. Live and let live ladies and gentlemen.

 

[tagos]

Maybe it's just me but the endless discussions on this topic seem to be all about desperately trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I, like others, choose to play in Open and fully accept all that it brings, it's why we're there. Others perhaps want to remove the PvP element from the game and the very large Mobius private groups provide that. Others don't want to interact with anyone at all and they are happily playing in Solo. All these players can do that and even switch between modes if they are in the mood for something else. Freedom of choice is perceived as a problem now?

Some people don't like other people exercising that freedom of choice to not provide them with their entertainment. I quite like Open occasionally, if I'm equipped for it. However my main focus is on ME having fun, not contributing to the fun of others.

Frontier were just very naive in how they expected players to respond to Open. The most effective communications tool is a multi-cannon. There still are limited to non existent communication and socialisation tools and the P2p instancing is patchy at best.

It was kind of inevitable things would end up like they are in Open once they decided not to include the social and communication tools multiplayer needs.

I'm happy having the choice. I just hope they don't go down the route of bribing or cajoling people into Open. It might not be rational but I think they would find people don't respond well to being made Second Class citizens because of their play choices.

 

[askavir]

Indeed, it seems some CMDR's are curiously obsessed with how other people choose to play this game and have a strong opinion on that matter for some reason. Live and let live ladies and gentlemen.

Hear hear.

I am an open mode player myself. I of course would like to see a much more populated environment. But never at the expense of other player's wishes.

If other people prefer to play in solo or groups, who am I to say that they shouldn't? People play games to have fun, whatever the form fun takes for each individual player. If players are not enjoying themselves, they won't play at all. Forcing people to play some game in a manner that does not provides enjoyment for them is completely absurd. It will never happen, they will just play something else.

This is especially true in a game as ED, with so many different ways to enjoy it. Some people see ships and guns and think "wow spaceship combat", some see stations and markets and think "wow trucking/mining", others see mission bulletin boards and think "wow adventures", others see pirates and think "wow I wanna be a pirate / bounty hunter", others see a whole 1:1 scale replica of our own the milky way and think "wow I wanna travel across our galaxy and explore its many wonders". All these and many more are perfectly valid. There is no "one true way" to play ED. ED is far big enough for everyone. And all of us are here because we love space and scifi, in whichever form it takes. So why are some people constantly trying to step in other peoples toes?

How much some people get aggravated by how other players play the game, most especially when it has zero impact on their own games, is completely mind-boggling. But that's just the way the world (the real world) is, many people are just completely incapable of minding their own business and leaving other people alone. Even on a freaking 1:1 galaxy sized game space.

Live and let live, play and let play.

 

[Zylark]

Rebuy is fine as is. Since launch and only playing in open, I've visited that screen 44 times for a total north of 140.000.000cr. Once I died to a bug, twice I've got killed by the station due to a misunderstanding, two times due to accidents during PvP practice, 38 times I've been killed in battle with other player-groups. That leaves one death due to being ganked by other players. A pirate actually, that I repelled and who then got help from his pirate friend. all whilst flying my then pretty new Asp. A long time ago, well over a year since.

Open is safer than some give the expression of. Most people are perfectly nice and helpful. Just keep away from the starter systems or any active CGs, and most if not all commanders you meet will either ignore you completely or throw you a o7 salute. And every once in a while engage in a little conversation.

Actual hostilities are in my experience very rare from independent pilots. It's usually players from other groups trying to pick a fight - or players from various PP factions that invade our home-system (a Hudson Control system) doing merit grinding and get wanted in the process. Something we take a very dim view of.

If FD is to attract more players to open, the right way to do it is to offer a very mild incentive. Like say 5% bonus akin to the trade divident for all actions done in open. That would compensate for the slight extra risk. Also, a rework of the crime and punishment system is long overdue. 6k bounty from killing somebody is just ridiculous. It need be much higher - and it should be able to track wanted criminals in order to make their life very difficult - and they'd have to pay rebuy + bounty upon getting caught and killed.

Reducing the insurance cost would be wrong. Half the thrill of a battle is knowing that if you fail, it'll cost. Besides, a lower insurance cost would encourage kamikaze tactics.

Open can thrive and be full of players, but it do require FD doing some adjustments.

 

[anikaiful]

TBH, they should never be any "incentive" for mode choosing apart player's own preferences.

 

[RogueWolf]

Actually, no. In WoW, on a PvE server, there is no PvP at all unless you intentionally put your PvP flag up. This means attacking an opposing faction's NPC, manually putting it up, attacking a flagged player, or entering a PvP instance such as a battleground or Arena. The only option is a consentual duel, but that doesn't flag you. If your flag is set to off by default, it will drop within 5 minutes of not participating in PvP.

PvP servers have faction controlled areas that basically operate under PvE server rules. Contested territory automatically flags you.

This most definitely contributes to the success of WoW. PvE servers have historically been just as, if not more, populated as PvP servers. Most server or "realm" based MMO's have followed this model since Everquest, which only had 2 PvP servers and then consolidated to one. No sure what it has now.

I'm sure it's pretty obvious I was talking specifically talking about PvP servers and while it contributes it's not the sole feature that "made WoW so successful" ... Regardless a game such as that can handle a split of servers without making the game seem void of players, but these nitch space MMO's just don't have the numbers to make such an Idea anything but a bad Idea.

Safe zones fine, safe server not so much.

 

[tagos]

Hear hear.

I am an open mode player myself. I of course would like to see a much more populated environment. But never at the expense of other player's wishes.

If other people prefer to play in solo or groups, who am I to say that they shouldn't? People play games to have fun, whatever the form fun takes for each individual player. If players are not enjoying themselves, they won't play at all. Forcing people to play some game in a manner that does not provides enjoyment for them is completely absurd. It will never happen, they will just play something else.

This is especially true in a game as ED, with so many different ways to enjoy it. Some people see ships and guns and think "wow spaceship combat", some see stations and markets and think "wow trucking/mining", others see mission bulletin boards and think "wow adventures", others see pirates and think "wow I wanna be a pirate / bounty hunter", others see a whole 1:1 scale replica of our own the milky way and think "wow I wanna travel across our galaxy and explore its many wonders". All these and many more are perfectly valid. There is no "one true way" to play ED. ED is far big enough for everyone. And all of us are here because we love space and scifi, in whichever for it takes. So why are some people constantly trying to step in other peoples toes?

How much some people get aggravated by how other players play the game, most especially when it has zero impact on their own games, is completely mind-boggling. But that's just the way the world (the real world) is, many people are just completely incapable of minding their own business and leaving other people alone. Even on a freaking 1:1 galaxy sized game space.

Live and let live, play and let play.

I agree, but to be strictly fair, people are making themselves unavailable to be shot at so it is affecting them. Also and with some tiny justification they argue that being unable to shoot people working for a goal in another mode does affect them. And of course that it isn't 'fair'. Even though with instancing limitations they probably wouldn't cross wakes anyway.

But that's the price to be paid. Elite needs to cater to as broad a base as possible. The quickest way to commercially kill a game is to start balancing it around the PvP component.

It's a minority interest, as witnessed by the constant demands that 'something must be done'.

Of course there could be massive changes made that would make Open more attractive. However resources are not unlimited and most of us want them spent on making the underlying game better. And as a publicly quoted company you can bet accountants and shareholders want that time spent on money making expansions.

 

[Warmaster Will]

You want people in open...make a mechanic to stop Griefers....Ace NPC wingmen for traders,miners.
Something. Maybe not even just NPC make Escort/Bodyguard Missions that pay like Robigo Missions.
Team up with a miner for a mil an hour or for a shiney spare part for an engineer to use to upgrade vet players ships who have so much money it is not even a consideration to run a mission.

 

[Seonid]

And as a publicly quoted company you can bet accountants and shareholders want that time spent on money making expansions.

Number of people paying for and playing the game. The mode they happen to play in is irrelevant.

 

[tagos]

Yep. The Bottom Line.