Cant you control amount of PVP

[Adept]

Hope it will be balanced.
Bounty hunters both PC and NPC have been named as the solution to griefing. Also the grouping mechanism.
To my mind this can never work as long as players are essentially immortal. The only outcome of that is that all players, griefers or not, over time, will all become elite and have uber iron 4rse ships. But I am willing to see how it pans out. Personally I will be playing Iron Man because I think this will be the universe I want. The players I encounter will have earned their ships, rating and cash by either being good enough to avoid the bounty hunters, in which case they are probably going to be better than me so the fight will be honorable even if they kill me. Statistics will favour the skilled and careful - I am ok with them being a threat, and the careless and unskilled will remain with low powered stuff and will not be such a threat.

The problem here is that a griefer who is out to really ruin somebody's day can create a new Iron Man commander, and be on the lookout for badly wounded ships limping back to port, or a player engaged in a close fight. Suicide ramming inside a space station could also work.

Luckily the griefer will eventually end up in the griefer hell instancing, but in Iron Man they can actually kill somebody's character permanently. Even if it takes them many tries to do it, those starter sidewinders are free. It's even worse if it's a KS backer with access to an upgraded starter ship.

 

[Adept]

I don't know what kind of closed multiplayer world you've been playing in but I'd like some of it. Or are you in some kind of dream game there and really asleep? Mate there are exactly those kinds of people sitting on the sidelines and given half the chance they will be wrecking it for everyone but themselves.

I was talking about NPCs. I thought it was obvious from the context, and the "in the universe" bit.

The point is that the reason many hate the unrestricted PvP approach is that you tend to get attacked by people for no better reason than that they happen to be bored, they like PvP and don't need any particular "in world" reason to do it (since that is for those weirdo roleplayers and immersion lovers), or indeed because they love the frustration they can cause by attacking somebody in a place they thought was safe (and they thought it was safe because there was no sane reason for anybody to attack there).

So yeah. What I meant is that NPC attacks will have a reason. A PvP enthusiast who just wants to fight / kill you for being another human player doesn't have a sane reason in the actual Elite setting. Combine with the usual smack-talk and insults and it's like a slap in your face reminding you "It's just a computer game. Don't get too into your character or enjoying the immersion".

 

[Dragotha]

I've been reading this thread intently, and for the most part I've been in agreement with most of your thoughts bar the above. In todays world, there are violent attacks and murders committed for no other reason than 'because'. Thankfully they are very very rare. Then there are attacks made by drunks or those high on something, they are just as random and meaningless. I can't think why, in the future there wouldn't be pilots who are mentally insane, psychotic, intoxicated or just plain evil. I'd hope there weren't that many of them in the game really, but to rule them out completely?

They're rare because in the real world we execute or imprison those people so they can't do it again. Ever.

 

[PacalB]

Maybe it's time to just face the fact ... open all multiplayer PvP and immersive world game play doesn't work, period. It seems we are all doomed to go round and round and round circles repeating these same arguments.

 

[Cosmos]

This is such a heated debate.

I would hate for ED to turn into EvE, I played that game for a year and a half before I quit because of other players griefing in areas of space that are supposed to be safe.

I ran mainly missions as part of a corp and also PvP as an Alt - and I enjoyed it all, PvP players are not griefers and its an unfair label. True griefing is a very different thing.

After reading loads of threads about this, I have to say that I think Froniter have the right idea and we should at least give them a chance with groups to see how it works out, either way I can't wait to try it!

When it comes to EvE I couldn't get past the virtual cliff to entry, not my type of game in all honesty, so never experienced the negative elements many seemed to have had in it. That all said I would have perhaps liked the adversity and enjoyed the PvP but from what I understand it was completely unfair with few options for players to avoid it. It does sound like that game did have a griefing problem and even I don't want to see that in Elite.

Right now I'm just confused.

Third party view - bad someone may have a percieved advantage.

Spawn camping in Alpha - good, the dev's didn't stop it so it is okay.

Moving between groups - bad the dev's have allowed it but they may have a percieved advantage.

Buying stuff with out of game cash - bad someone may have a percieved advantage.

What the hell is wrong with people - accept that people will be able to enjoy the game in the way they want too. Stop acting like little children, "But daddy, he's got the super dooper action man toy with the wobbly eyes - mah, mah mah it's not fair."

Why on earth can't peeps look to bettering the overall experience for everyone, accept that the world don't revolve around them and realise that others have a choice.

ps. hammered so any sensible replies may well go right ower mi head.

hehe.. I should probably include the last line in my posts some times. I think we all want a decent experience for everyone. I want ED to be the best game it can be but you know by discussing this issue we might all be able to come upon a system that works. Even though I often find myself in conflict with other peoples views there have been many an occasion when a robust discussion has infact given me pause for thought and I have conceeded other peoples points.

It will never be perfect but I just don't want the game to end up stunted because of peoples previous poor experiences.

Hope it will be balanced.
Bounty hunters both PC and NPC have been named as the solution to griefing. Also the grouping mechanism.
To my mind this can never work as long as players are essentially immortal. The only outcome of that is that all players, griefers or not, over time, will all become elite and have uber iron 4rse ships. But I am willing to see how it pans out. Personally I will be playing Iron Man because I think this will be the universe I want. The players I encounter will have earned their ships, rating and cash by either being good enough to avoid the bounty hunters, in which case they are probably going to be better than me so the fight will be honorable even if they kill me. Statistics will favour the skilled and careful - I am ok with them being a threat, and the careless and unskilled will remain with low powered stuff and will not be such a threat.

This is my sort of view too. If the game dynamic is balanced between bounty hunters and those who choose to be criminals the player community can be an effective way to battle those who really do become problematic to others.

 

[Cosmos]

Real Freedom?

So this is from the offical Elite Dangerous page. I think its worth reading:

Play your way

Whether you want to trade for profit between systems, take part in multiplayer mission alliances, free-for-all group battles and team raids to bring down planetary economies. Tip the balance of power in the galaxy, or simply explore the wonders of the universe and face the unknown… it is up to you.
Your second-to-second actions could have you taking the roles of trader, pirate, bounty hunter, leader, team player, opportunistic assassin, grand schemer, and more. You are at the centre of the action any time, any place and any way you choose – each action has a consequence, and influences the galaxy around you.


Real Freedom

Go where you like, be what you like - pirate, bounty hunter, trader, assassin, or a mix of all of these.
Trade: Buy low, cross dangerous space lanes, evade or destroy pirates en route, then sell high, if you make the journey!
Fight: Take on the pirates or be one yourself.
Progress: Get your pilot rating all the way from "Harmless" to "Elite".
Explore: Head out to the far reaches of space and discover amazing sights.
Multiplayer: And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours…

It seems to be the other side in this debate want Elite Dangerous to suffer the fate of Robocop.

 

[Bolthammer]

So this is from the offical Elite Dangerous page. I think its worth reading:

It seems to be the other side in this debate want Elite Dangerous to suffer the fate of Robocop.

Thats just a placeholder offcourse a vocal minority will make Elite-Dangerous into Elite:Trade/Mining-simulator 2014 ... Tractors in space!

Naah it will be just fine. I still find to see the relevance with these discussions when you can play solo - yet a few demand the rest play by certain gentleman rules and generally be the best of man while playing multiplayer.

Lets have a discussion about how we can make solomode more hardcore for a change ...

 

[Mephane]

So yeah. What I meant is that NPC attacks will have a reason. A PvP enthusiast who just wants to fight / kill you for being another human player doesn't have a sane reason in the actual Elite setting. Combine with the usual smack-talk and insults and it's like a slap in your face reminding you "It's just a computer game. Don't get too into your character or enjoying the immersion".

Good point. One situation I can imagine, the aforementioned player limping back to a station, badly damaged. Already on the last few kilometers and well within the space heavily policed by the station, no pirate would dare attack another ship (instead probably try to smuggle stolen goods into the station, and therefore bound to behave inconspiciously), for they would not survive the day.

A griefer wouldn't care. They see a badly hurt player in a vulnerable position. They don't even need a fancy expensive ship for that, any starter ship would suffice to finish off someone who has just barely survived to reach the station's vicinity. And thus, in a situation most vulnerable but, according to all in-character reasoning, should be most safe - as soon as another player is shown on the radar (not even this, a griefer could hide in silent running mode), those will always be some nerve-wrecking moments until the ship is finally, safely landed on the pad inside.

A griefer in that situation is not bothered with bounties or fines. In the worst case, they could just delete and start over if they end up destroyed and broke.

I don't think you can ever prevent the situation I described. All measurements against the griefer's commander character can be rendered moot by creating another throwaway character, so the only viable measurements must happen on an account-wide basis. Hellbanning, for example, to put notorious griefers in an "all griefers" group, could be a solution, but that would need a way to automatically detect and/or manually report a griefer as such. It would also need a way so that a false positive can get out of the hellban again, without creating a loophole for griefers to escape.

The most immediate thing, however, that FD should definitely include, is a sort of simplified combat log, that shows both for other players and NPCs, who attacked you when, who killed you when, and of course the other way round. Otherwise, a griefer could even score a kill without the victim being able to afterwards put them on ignore, which is the very least that should be always possible.

Oh, and another point that I cannot facepalm enough when I learn that yet another game fails to take this into account:

Never limit the maximum number of players you can have on your ignore list.

 

[Fromhell]

Is there some magic group I can switch to where NPC do not exist and can´t "gank" me? Please, I really want this - and as we know everyone gets what everyone wants, right?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Is there some magic group I can switch to where NPC do not exist and can´t "gank" me? Please, I really want this - and as we know everyone gets what everyone wants, right?

The "Hellban" group could be like this - the only problem would be that the only ships that you would encounter would have been "removed" from the general population....

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Is there some magic group I can switch to where NPC do not exist and can´t "gank" me? Please, I really want this - and as we know everyone gets what everyone wants, right?

Man, you must be mellowing out a bit in your old age. 168 posts of pvp fear mongering and you turn up THIS late in the day? I expected to see you on page one

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

The "Hellban" group could be like this - the only problem would be that the only ships that you would encounter would have been "removed" from the general population....

The Hellban group sounds interesting in principle but I suspect in reality it'll be a place where characters go to die - as in players will take a look out of curiosity and then delete their naughty character - rejoining the general population with a brand new one. Griefers are the least likely sorts to handle being griefed themselves.

Maybe if character banishment was account wide it could work though?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Maybe if character banishment was account wide it could work though?

If it was account wide, I would expect that there would need to be tiered durations of banishment for continued infractions, i.e. day, week, month, year, permanent - sort of like the system in place on these forums.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

If it was account wide, I would expect that there would need to be tiered durations of banishment for continued infractions, i.e. day, week, month, year, permanent - sort of like the system in place on these forums.

Agreed. I think that's how it worked in the original Ultima Online game. Characters who murdered other characters where effectively banished from towns and guarded areas until their murder counts were worked off. Some were effectively banished for life since the amount of kills they wracked up would take months to work off (and if they killed again in that time it was reset if I recall correctly).

I think penal colonies in Elite Dangerous would have been an interesting addition instead of monetary fines. Financial penalties could become meaningless if the player has a super-rich trader character to bankroll his badboy. Whereas a penal colony would see a captured criminal have to spend some time doing unpaid mundane tasks/missions away from the general populace until he's served his time. A character sent to a penal colony would not be allowed to be deleted, so no matter what if you wanted to free up that character slot for a new guy you have to serve your time first

 

[Robert Maynard]

Financial penalties could become meaningless if the player has a super-rich trader character to bankroll his pirate. Whereas a penal colony would see a captured criminal have to spend some time doing unpaid mundane tasks/missions away from the general populace until he's served his time. A character sent to a penal colony would not be allowed to be deleted, so no matter what if you wanted to free up that character slot for a new guy you have to serve your time first

Transfer of credits between players should only be able to occur when both are online. This would necessitate a trusted intermediary for a transfer between one players characters.

I like the idea of not being able to delete a banned character.

 

[Adept]

The Hellban group sounds interesting in principle but I suspect in reality it'll be a place where characters go to die - as in players will take a look out of curiosity and then delete their naughty character - rejoining the general population with a brand new one. Griefers are the least likely sorts to handle being griefed themselves.

Maybe if character banishment was account wide it could work though?

It's account wide. The only escape is to buy a brand new account, and even there persistent griefers may find themselves IP banned.

I suspect the griefer hell will actually suit some people just fine. If all one cares for is PvP action, that is where you'll find the likeminded people.

 

[TheGoatee]

I have read most of the posts in this thread and I really wonder if there is something that has being overlooked. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but more at the general hysteria.

* How does this magical "griefer", who appears to have the best ship and weapons survive, if all he/she does is kill other players?

* How does this player, pay the fuel bill, repair costs, insurance payments and increasing bounties associated with griefing as his/her income is limited to the odd bit of cargo that survives the explosion.

My view is that true griefing (not piracy or bounty hunting) unlikely to pay well, in fact it’s probably going to be one of the most self destructive things you can do to your own character, so its self-limiting or incredibly expensive to support as secondary account.

The reply of he/she can always "restart a new character and continue griefing" also doesn’t fly (get the pun ) with me. Unless he/she is a kickstarter backer (which most people won’t be by the time we get to the actual release) then restarting with the basic ship / equipment is hardly likely to trouble most players.

My 2p.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

It's account wide. The only escape is to buy a brand new account, and even there persistent griefers may find themselves IP banned.

I suspect the griefer hell will actually suit some people just fine. If all one cares for is PvP action, that is where you'll find the likeminded people.

Possibly, but I think griefers on the whole like to pick on weaker targets. Technically that's still "PvP" but in principle I wouldn't call them the same thing.

If griefers are banished into a gameworld where everyone else is on par with them at killing other players they'll probably go the buy a new account route since a lot of them can't handle genuine PvP. I'm not so sure they'll embrace a gameworld where their definition of "PvP" is no longer possible due to there being no more weak targets. Sounds like the perfect punishment to me

PvPers and griefplayers need to have the same separation in peoples thinking as Pirates and Killers does. They all often get lumped together and fall under the heading of 'griefer' - which is a bit unfair.

I have read most of the posts in this thread and I really wonder if there is something that has being overlooked. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but more at the general hysteria.

* How does this magical "griefer", who appears to have the best ship and weapons survive, if all he/she does is kill other players?

* How does this player, pay the fuel bill, repair costs, insurance payments and increasing bounties associated with griefing as his/her income is limited to the odd bit of cargo that survives the explosion.

My view is that true griefing (not piracy or bounty hunting) unlikely to pay well, in fact it’s probably going to be one of the most self destructive things you can do to your own character, so its self-limiting or incredibly expensive to support as secondary account.

The reply of he/she can always "restart a new character and continue griefing" also doesn’t fly (get the pun ) with me. Unless he/she is a kickstarter backer (which most people won’t be by the time we get to the actual release) then restarting with the basic ship / equipment is hardly likely to trouble most players.

My 2p.

All valid points. The way grief players survived and prospered in other games was to be bankrolled by another 'law abiding' character on their account. In UO they were called Mules - characters skilled in making money which they would either directly transfer to their griefer character, or use a third party.

Its the same principle in Eve Online - there they're called Alts.

I think to combat this in ED we need to be able to see what other characters are associated with a particular account.

Possibly a way around it would be to allow no anonymity, no hiding behind alts, and as Adept says, punishment could be account wide - not character specific. Not ideal but it could be the lesser of two evils?

 

[Bob_H]

I have read most of the posts in this thread and I really wonder if there is something that has being overlooked. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but more at the general hysteria.

* How does this magical "griefer", who appears to have the best ship and weapons survive, if all he/she does is kill other players?

they don't, or rather their characters dont, survive particularly long. Griefers will normally be recreating characters often, sometimes several times per hour depending on the game mechanics. Griefers are not there to make the most out of their game time but to make the most of screwing up your game time so character longevity is immaterial to the griefer mindset. Griefing doesn't need the best ships and best equipment. It just needs enough of each to mess around with others. There are more ways to grief than just shooting people in the face.

* How does this player, pay the fuel bill, repair costs, insurance payments and increasing bounties associated with griefing as his/her income is limited to the odd bit of cargo that survives the explosion.

Invariably, they don't. They either rely on recycling character slots or on a second 'legit' character making the in-game cash. Griefers are very rarely solo players. It's more normal to find them in small packs as they're more interested in showing off their griefing skills to other griefers than actually engaging in any kind of game play. Griefing is the equilavent of the small group of 3 or 4 bullies in the school playground.

My view is that true griefing (not piracy or bounty hunting) unlikely to pay well, in fact it’s probably going to be one of the most self destructive things you can do to your own character, so its self-limiting or incredibly expensive to support as secondary account.

This is exactly what happens.

The reply of he/she can always "restart a new character and continue griefing" also doesn’t fly (get the pun ) with me. Unless he/she is a kickstarter backer (which most people won’t be by the time we get to the actual release) then restarting with the basic ship / equipment is hardly likely to trouble most players.

Any game that will give you free equipment and a few coins to get you started will support a griefer. As I pointed out above. They're not interested in playing the game or even ruining the game, only in ruining your game.

My 2p.

You're looking at griefing as a person who wants to play a game, regardless of whether you're in it for the experience, the PvP, the PvE or whatever. Griefers aren't interested in any of that. Their only real interest is invariably whether or not they can annoy you enough to make you stop playing. It has nothing to do with playing and everything to do with bullying.

 

[TheGoatee]

Lots of good points

So most of that could be undone by only allowing you to create two new characters in a 24 hour period and not allowing credit transfers to these new characters within another 24 hour period?