Discuss the AI here!

[frostypaw]

For example, lower difficulty would give less advancement on ranks and reputation and disallow any highly priced rewards (discovering alien ruins, for example).

Can you imagine the stink when the rest of us are living the thargoid powered high life and they have to restart to get to discover them, wondering the whole time why the rest of the galaxy is changing?

The combat ranks are meant to provide this kind of matchmaking so this discussion shouldn't even be happening - but the game still can't let people get away with everything and rank should mean the same across the board - not have to be qualified with how much time you spent in easy mode. Fix the matchmaking and help the players learn to adapt - don't shatter the game world.

 

[We Are Groot]

The issue with making the difficulty selective in one mode and not the other, I.E. making Solo play variable in difficulty and Open the same difficulty for everyone, is that you only have one save shared between all of them.

This means that it's exploitable by people who don't want to work for their rewards, and they will use it to circumvent penalties in Open Play that wouldn't exist in Solo. I'll provide some examples.

First and most obvious: I play in Open but in Open money is harder to earn than in Solo since the theoretical new changes to Solo which have introduced an Easy difficulty. If I see something I want added to the game that's going to take me a significant amount of time to earn money for, I could go to Solo, set it to easy, and earn that reward in a fraction of the amount of time it would take me to earn it in Open, then skip back to Open and I would have an advantage over everyone who decided to stay and play in Open since I keep my rewards. This will result in a trend where everyone starts dropping out of Open to earn credits, reputation and materials at the faster rate because they don't want to be disadvantaged against anyone else who also does this.

Secondly, I could do the same with reputation, earning it in Solo faster than in Open.

Thirdly, I could do it to fix my mistakes without having to worry about the penalties of those mistakes. Say I get a bad reputation with a faction and that faction becomes hostile, while I'm deep in their territory. I can log in to Solo, change the difficulty to easy and leave their territory much more easily than I could by staying in open, on top of being able to change my reputation back to friendly faster and easier by doing the required tasks in Solo.

The immediate response to this is to make Commander save files separate for each instance: Open, Solo and Private. Sadly this idea has been rejected by both the devs and the community, and for good reason. From a technical standpoint the game is not in a great position, and there are often times when Open play is not functioning. During these times Open players have to date been able to drop to Solo or Private to continue playing, but unique saves between all of the play modes would be a huge detriment to what has been a saving grace for many players in the face of FDev's continued technical problems with their server structure, especially in the United States.

There have been hundreds of pages of discussion on this topic scattered about, in different places and times. It is the proverbial dead horse. There are also significant issues that would arise with some of the game's core design choices regarding the implementation of any type of adjustable difficulty, mainly that it would require a complete rework of how the Non Player Characters work, and that those changes would be so significant that many of the game's other mechanics would have to be changed to fit with them.

Feel free to continue asking questions and making suggestions though. we always enjoy the input when it's well thought out and presented politely. Sadly this is almost never the case with the rest of the community.

On a final note I'd like to point out a maxim that has been true about game design since man decided to waste his time playing them, going back to skipping stones and rolling dice.

If you cater to everyone, you satisfy no one.

The issue with not making the difficulty selective also makes the opposite true meaning that it is exploitable by people who have skills that others do not. People with lots of money, better equipment etc will also benefit because it is much easier for them to handle what is thrown at them.

You are saying that people could go to Solo to earn things easier. You are saying everyone has that option. It is a choice. So how is your idea of having it difficult for everyone any better? Is it difficult for the elite players who want the increased difficulty or only those who do not have the skill because of age, disability, etc? Won't the elite combat players earn that reward in a fraction of the amount of time it would take the average player? Giving them an advantage over the casual or average player?

This will result in a trend where the elite combat players have an advantage over the average or casual player. Also why would everyone drop out of open to earn easy credits? The elite combat players want more difficult combat. They want the challenge so they are not going to drop into open to make it easier. They want the challenge so let them have it while others are not forced to? I doubt the elite combat players would be disadvantaged. Instead it would probably put them on equal ground with those that are not as good for whatever reason. Your view seems to favor the elite where difficulty settings have always been there to provide balance to try and make the game enjoyable for all.

I am also not sure if I agree with "If you cater to everyone, you satisfy no one." Yes you will never satisfy everyone but if you are clever you might come close? I am not sure how hard it would be to make most people happy with all of this but it isn't my job to do so. I probably wouldn't enjoy that job but I can somewhat understand what it must be like.

 

[frostypaw]

yet it's suddenly not the game for people who want to explore because the latest update botched a few things? Either there's a breathtaking lack of consideration on display there or the Frontier Forums Mental Gymnastics Division just flipped clear out the building

Or you've misread things in some bizarre light?

This has nothing to do with the update - elite has never been a pure exploration game - the word "just" isn't just decorative there.
In case you didn't hear we've been told to go prepared for trouble out there in the black - or are you wanting to have the whole threat of encountering alien life turned into a nice picnic and tea? Just because exploration is popular - hell i'm an explorer - doesn't mean I demand it be a cakewalk. What kind of game is that? Space engine?

edit> This is alien life in Elite

You will notice the large unfriendly ship. There is a threat in space.

This is alien life in Elite Dangerous.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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If you expect it to stay that way you may be confused - that's not trying to be nasty, it's just pointing out that this is a new updated version of Elite.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

The issue with not making the difficulty selective also makes the opposite true meaning that it is exploitable by people who have skills that others do not. People with lots of money, better equipment etc will also benefit because it is much easier for them to handle what is thrown at them.

You are saying that people could go to Solo to earn things easier. You are saying everyone has that option. It is a choice. So how is your idea of having it difficult for everyone any better? Is it difficult for the elite players who want the increased difficulty or only those who do not have the skill because of age, disability, etc? Won't the elite combat players earn that reward in a fraction of the amount of time it would take the average player? Giving them an advantage over the casual or average player?

This will result in a trend where the elite combat players have an advantage over the average or casual player. Also why would everyone drop out of open to earn easy credits? The elite combat players want more difficult combat. They want the challenge so they are not going to drop into open to make it easier. They want the challenge so let them have it while others are not forced to? I doubt the elite combat players would be disadvantaged. Instead it would probably put them on equal ground with those that are not as good for whatever reason. Your view seems to favor the elite where difficulty settings have always been there to provide balance to try and make the game enjoyable for all.

I am also not sure if I agree with "If you cater to everyone, you satisfy no one." Yes you will never satisfy everyone but if you are clever you might come close? I am not sure how hard it would be to make most people happy with all of this but it isn't my job to do so. I probably wouldn't enjoy that job but I can somewhat understand what it must be like.

Wow, no. A lot of supposition here, but this all relies on humans not being human. Again, last I checked we're all human, and people are going to take the path of least resistance to their goal.

Nothing you have said is applicable.

Also please check in with the reality of the game. Elite Combat players earn a fraction of the amount that casual players do, because the casual players like to spend their time trading and smuggling. Going by your logic, being an "Elite" player is actually a punished by the game, and never rewarded.

 

[JuicerPrime]

Or you've misread things in some bizarre light?

This has nothing to do with the update - elite has never been a pure exploration game - the word "just" isn't just decorative there.
In case you didn't hear we've been told to go prepared for trouble out there in the black - or are you wanting to have the whole threat of encountering alien life turned into a nice picnic and tea? Just because exploration is popular - hell i'm an explorer - doesn't mean I demand it be a cakewalk. What kind of game is that? Space engine?

Relax, no need for hyperbole. I'm just pointing out that focussed exploration has been a viable and accepted part of ED for quite a while and it's one of the things which draws people to the game who are looking for a less intense Elite experience. Unarmed explorers know the risks and have taken them since day one, but expecting them to suddenly change established and long-practiced techniques to accomodate an extreme shift in game focus that the dev's have already indicated was too far isn't particularly considerate to a segment of the playerbase or conducive to expanding the appeal of the game.

Also, are you telling me you've been exploring in an armed build all this time?

 

[boxxedin]

How about we make AI difficulty the player's choice? Each CMDR can set their own difficulty, with increasing rewards for each level of difficulty.

For example:

Standard - Pre-1.6/2.1 AI; 1x payout for kills;
Challenging - 33% strength of 1.6/2.1 AI without any engineer modifiers; 5x payout for kills;
Very Challenging - 50% strength of 1.6/2.1 AI with engineer modifiers; 10x payout for kills;
Dangerous - 100% strength of 1.6/2.1 AI without any engineer modifiers; 15x payout for kills;
Elite - 100% strength of 1.6/2.1 AI with engineer modifiers; 20x payout for kills.

 

[Gold Coins for Cats]

As I said, maybe its time to make a altered universe in Ironman mode, this way we who like the challenge can sign up there, and the rest can continue in the open, solo, private mode.

I don't think the right answer is to split the playerbase. This game has enough grouping issues as it is.

 

[frostypaw]

Relax, I'm just pointing out that focussed exploration has been a viable and accepted part of ED for quite a while and it's one of the things which draws people to the game who are looking for a less intense Elite experience. Unarmed explorers know the risks and have taken them since day one, expecting them to suddenly change established techniques to accomodate an extreme shift in game focus that the dev's have already indicated was too far isn't particularly considerate or conducive to expanding the appeal of the game.

Also, are you telling me you've been exploring in an armed build all this time?

I literally am that person you're talking about. I avoid combat, I love exploring and I've not been here all that long.

And yes - went to the rift fully armed for bear. This is space RP for me to some degree and damn it I'm not going out there in my knickers after the things I saw as a young'un in '84, treaty be damned. Hence finding the 'easy plot' <27ly route out - and that was after nerfing my jump range to match old cobras on purpose. Still got everywhere I wanted, still scanned all the nebulae I wanted on the way back, still made almost 40Mcr, happy.

There hasn't been a dramatic shift in game focus. I play in the bubble just like I did before. The AI that got nerfed in early 1.something releases has been unnerfed - alongside it a bunch of bugs turned up and everyone went totally catship crazy. The bubble is much as it was, they just fly better - and now without their mods won't be stupidly OP.

 

[We Are Groot]

Wow, no. A lot of supposition here, but this all relies on humans not being human. Again, last I checked we're all human, and people are going to take the path of least resistance to their goal.

Nothing you have said is applicable.

Also please check in with the reality of the game. Elite Combat players earn a fraction of the amount that casual players do, because the casual players like to spend their time trading and smuggling. Going by your logic, being an "Elite" player is actually a punished by the game, and never rewarded.

A lot of supposition here? Anymore than what you have said? I think I am pretty open minded and I try to see things from all angles. If what you say is true and "people are going to take the path of least resistance" than why do so many want increased difficulty? Don't those two contradict each other?

What have I said that is not applicable?

The Elite player is actually punished by the game? How so? Wouldn't increased difficulty reward them? Isn't that what they have been asking for? There are no Elite players with billions of credits and most ships that are now looking for a challenge?

Are all Elite players only those who sit in combat all day and make no profit? From all I have read and seen on the forums I can't see that being the case.

 

[JuicerPrime]

I literally am that person you're talking about. I avoid combat, I love exploring and I've not been here all that long.

And yes - went to the rift fully armed for bear. This is space RP for me to some degree and damn it I'm not going out there in my knickers after the things I saw as a young'un in '84, treaty be damned. Hence finding the 'easy plot' <27ly route out - and that was after nerfing my jump range to match old cobras on purpose. Still got everywhere I wanted, still scanned all the nebulae I wanted on the way back, still made almost 40Mcr, happy.

There hasn't been a dramatic shift in game focus. I play in the bubble just like I did before. The AI that got nerfed in early 1.something releases has been unnerfed - alongside it a bunch of bugs turned up and everyone went totally catship crazy. The bubble is much as it was, they just fly better - and now without their mods won't be stupidly OP.

Righto, carry on then. Kudos for the RP angle [up]

I think the AI gained the rotation of doom behaviour with 1.4. Now we've got joust-and-ram. Hopefully they'll fix that faster than they fixed the spinning, ramming an opponent should never be a valid tactic for anyone stuck inside a thin pressurized shell surrounded by the vaccuum of space.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

first define cheesy. if you mean submit then immediately boost boost high/low wake i dont think thats viable unless you are in a much faster ship and your opponent is unmodded.
.

It's not only viable, it's the easiest and most likely way to escape. Your interdictor needs 60 secs to recharge FSD, you 10. You need to survive 15 secs of fire while your FSD charges. With the supermods gone, this should not be a problem. (and actually it hasn't been for me over the long weekend. Only once screwed up trying to lowake a Python that masslocked me. By the time I cancelled and started hiwake, ship was sparking and smoking - but still made it out)

 

[lysan]

I don't think the right answer is to split the playerbase. This game has enough grouping issues as it is.

The damage is already done the day FD decided to make a SOLO and private mode parallel to OPEN. So I don't see any problems with an Ironman mode.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

We should probably re-run the poll since they're back from their extended bank holiday weekend and have acted accordingly.
Thread is generally out of date as well.

 

[kofeyh]

We should probably re-run the poll since they're back from their extended bank holiday weekend and have acted accordingly.
Thread is generally is out of date as well.

Why? The damage is already done. AI are to have all claws trimmed. We're back to the AI being unable to present a major threat. And as time goes on, they will increasingly cease to be a threat for those with 2.1. Happy to see some of the OP builds being pulled from AI - but the shouting hordes have won. AI cannot be a threat to players. This is a bridge too far it seems.

Oh well.

 

[R3DB3RD]

The shouting hordes didn't win.

FD have access to game data that we do not. All we have access to is gangs of forum warriors flexing their debating skills and roaring into word games.

FD, using the data that they have drawn from the actual game, drawn from the actual player base, have recognised a major problem in 2.1.
They are now attempting to improve upon that.
So, if that small minority of winghers and whiners that were repeatedly told to 'git gud' didn't actually have something important to contribute to the state of gameplay, FD would not have jumped all over this.
So, maybe, just maybe some of you forum warriors out there should take a little humble pie and have a think about the way you treated other members of this gaming community, other paying members that have every right to play any number of roles in this game that does not revolve around being an Ace Combat Pilot.
And please stop with all the Zen Warrior nonsense, it's a game, not Conan the Barbarian.
We know life is tough, that's why we come here, to get away from sycophantic, ego driven psychopaths that just want to pour hate and pain into the Rage Train we call life.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

So, I keep reading posts by commanders who possess amazing combat skills wanting more challenge in the game, and many of these pro Elite players seem down that the npc's are losing their engineer weapons and "getting made easier for the casuals". So, here is an honest question for the Elite combat rated Elite players who desire a more challenging game:

what ship are you flying into combat?

I mean honestly, are you fighting in A-rated Corvettes? Fully decked out FDL's? If you want more challenge why not jump into combat zones flying an Eagle or a Viper and see how challenging it is? You can very easily make the game very challenging by not flying the best ships the game has to offer...?

I got "deadly" in 2.0 after sitting in a CNB for days and hours on end, partially because the AI was elite/deadly so a bit more challenging, partially for the rank. In hindsight, I don't think I deserve that combat rank yet. It was really way too easy. I would go to the CNB/hazres to relax, which couldn't have been the purpose.

I am not a great pilot, I usually fly with much more experienced CMDRs, but I do OK.

Post 2.1, after a couple of close shaves, I parked the FdL for now, and will probably turn it into a pure combat ship. I am back in my vulture for BH, now with adjusted loadout for 2.1, including PDs and extra HRPs. And I went with fixed pulses, because if I have to fly harder to keep on target and out of their sights anyway, I might as well get the lower power usage and increase dmg that come with those.

So, I both adjusted to the new reality by changing ship and load-out, and added more challenge to force me to improve my flying skills.

 

[@CEHIGH]

The shouting hordes didn't win.

FD have access to game data that we do not. All we have access to is gangs of forum warriors flexing their debating skills and roaring into word games.

FD, using the data that they have drawn from the actual game, drawn from the actual player base, have recognised a major problem in 2.1.
They are now attempting to improve upon that.
So, if that small minority of winghers and whiners that were repeatedly told to 'git gud' didn't actually have something important to contribute to the state of gameplay, FD would not have jumped all over this.
So, maybe, just maybe some of you forum warriors out there should take a little humble pie and have a think about the way you treated other members of this gaming community, other paying members that have every right to play any number of roles in this game that does not revolve around being an Ace Combat Pilot.
And please stop with all the Zen Warrior nonsense, it's a game, not Conan the Barbarian.
We know life is tough, that's why we come here, to get away from sycophantic, ego driven psychopaths that just want to pour hate and pain into the Rage Train we call life.

Lovely way of putting it. I approve. Greatly

 

[rrobes]

For me it sounds like the storm in the teacup we had after interdiction changes. You know, the "eagles melt my shields in 2 seconds" thing, that went away and never surfaced again? That thing.

As for the AI difficulty, I read a lot of "5 sec kills" complaints, I would love to see some actually evidence of that. Because if there is such, I'm sure FD will take action. But just word of mouth doesn't help much.

This is not word of mouth, this is a first person account. Today, while running a mission to Hawley Station in Athra, for a mat in my Python, I was interdicted by another Python who had me down to 46% hull and no shields in less than 30 seconds plus he targeted the drive module individually,down to 76% when I checked after the initial encounter, it seemed to me he was using missiles, kinetics and thermals at the same time all the time he was on my six. I managed to jump to another system randomly, then jumped to another one for repairs, Wolf 1278. I got jumped again but evaded interdiction by the SAME Python on the approach to Wolf. Jumped from Wolf 1278 after repairs to Athra to complete my mission, got jumped by an Asp right after coming from light jump by the sun, couldn't evade and took him on. I blew him up but suffered significant damage. As I was charging the FSD the SAME Python showed up, I know, he had the same name, and he materialized really close. I had no chance, again, missiles, kinetics and lasers, module malfunction and in less than 30 seconds I was destroyed. My Python is A-Class with reactive armor, which apparently is worth less than toilet paper now. 13 million insurance that I can afford but not happy about.

BTW all these interdictors were shooting first and asking later!

I am not an ace but I am deadly and over 60% to elite so that is 9k worth of ships destroyed and recently all I've taken higher ranked ships to try to reach elite. So I do know a little something. Now you tell me how this NPC kept track of me throughout sundry jumps between systems and showed up just when I was vulnerable. This doesn't happen at random, this is a programming sequence set up to make you fail.

I don't mind a an even fight, heck I don't mind an uneven fight. I love to take on elite clippers, condas and cutters. My issue is that this was a totally, lopsided fight with NO chance to succeed. Maybe someone at FD said, "They wanted tough AI, well let's see how you like this!"

I have no reason to make this up, nor do I believe other instances have been made up either, they are too similar. Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

"The Stars My Destination"
Alfred Bester

 

[kofeyh]

FD have access to game data that we do not.

Yes. However frontier do listen to the community and will enact changes based on that, and not just hard data. I don't take issue with that at all, it's actually quite healthy, just that that typically ends up being a bit heavy handed because of the degree of reaction from said community. And I am hopeful this doesn't undo what are otherwise good changes in general, in the quest to neuter the AI.

Think we can discuss without labeling various parts of the community though.

 

[rrobes]

The shouting hordes didn't win.

FD have access to game data that we do not. All we have access to is gangs of forum warriors flexing their debating skills and roaring into word games.

FD, using the data that they have drawn from the actual game, drawn from the actual player base, have recognised a major problem in 2.1.
They are now attempting to improve upon that.
So, if that small minority of winghers and whiners that were repeatedly told to 'git gud' didn't actually have something important to contribute to the state of gameplay, FD would not have jumped all over this.
So, maybe, just maybe some of you forum warriors out there should take a little humble pie and have a think about the way you treated other members of this gaming community, other paying members that have every right to play any number of roles in this game that does not revolve around being an Ace Combat Pilot.
And please stop with all the Zen Warrior nonsense, it's a game, not Conan the Barbarian.
We know life is tough, that's why we come here, to get away from sycophantic, ego driven psychopaths that just want to pour hate and pain into the Rage Train we call life.

I am so with you, the smugness and patronizing attitude that comes across so heavily from some of these CMNDR's is beyond my understanding. It is "I got mine Jack, the he** with you!" Many of these players amassed stockpiles of CR's under totally different circumstances. I've only been playing for the last 6 months and there is a big difference between starting now as a new player and when I started. There is an unbalance in the NPC AI, see post #4804 on this thread to read what happened to me and my Python today.

All in all, I like the "Engineers" and the new missions plus all of the other improvements made, much more than PowerPlay which was mind numbing trying to maintain your rating. Just let us be able to have a chance against NPC's and do away with the "Boss" NPC that have god-like abilities.

"The Stars My Destination"
Alfred Bester