Discuss AI here (After Engineer mods removal)

[killerofstars]

I can only hope at this point, that SJA either tones things down (which will annoy those looking for harder AI) or makes adaptive AI which matches itself to the skill level of the pilot.... or at least stops sending killing machines against people flying weaker ships, no matter their combat rank.

As of this point, the game simply isn't any fun any more.

To anyone I said they needed to adapt to the new AI, my apologies. I had underestimated it.

I think we should constrain the harder AI to special areas. Danger zones, combat zones, haz res, whatever you want to call it. So that if you're looking for that AI you can find your challenge, but if you dont want that...you can fly in relative peace.

Everyone has to remember: That EVEN IF we went back to how the AI FLEW before (sans the death spin bug) that the AI ships now are vastly better outfitted. I never saw railguns and plasma guns on adders (or shield cell banks for that matter) before.

Also please keep in mind, not everybody is having the same experiences. I had a fight in a RES that was pretty normal until two dangerous adders attacked me for no good reason I could see. (and I got a bounty for firing back because I didnt wait for the scan to complete. They need to fix that.) And I've fought ships that wouldn't get off my tail no matter what I did. Your experiences with the new AI might not reflect everyone else's, relative skill levels or no.

 

[Anson22]

Well, after today's antics, i wish i could change my vote to: AI is too hard.


To anyone I said they needed to adapt to the new AI, my apologies. I had underestimated it.

Hmmm - I've had some run in's with the new AI and it is harder. But I'm surprised that you've hit a wall like this. Since the removal of most of the 'engineers' weapons from the NPC's I'm whizzing around in a T6 with few issues - just the one 'near loss'. I go out in my Vulture and I can find lots of trouble if I want look for it but otherwise kills are just a little bit more difficult than they were before. I went out in the Cobra MkIV earlier this evening and didn't see a single interdiction. I wonder if you have found a bugged section of the galaxy? Where are you flying? Or perhaps killing traders is causing a negative reaction? Either way, I think the advice you were giving was sound - Adapting has been a key part of my gameplay. I will say that choosing your fights with care is important - at present you won't find me in a HazRes ;-)

ps - I've killed Vultures in the CM4 in the pre-2.1 galaxy but I haven't tried with the new AI.

pps - I did jokingly tweet to SJA regards Ferdie... "I hope Ferdie understands that a Cobra MkIV is not a valid target" ;-)

 

[Nyres]

Well, after today's antics, i wish i could change my vote to: AI is too hard.

In fact, i'm beginning to think its insane.

Yes, i know some people are saying how they can take down anacondas in sidewinders with one hand tied behind their backs, and kudos to you. I've not been too bothered by the AI until now (minus the bugs about super rapid fire weapons, which were annoying), but then, i jumped in my CM4 to do some piracy. Lovely ship, but it has some weaknesses... erm... quite a few. But anyway. Headed out to go pew-pew myself some traders. Unfortunately, just as i was locking onto a trader, i got interdicted.

No worries eh? Oh... Vulture +1 other... not sure, didn't even get a look at him.

No way was i taking a vulture on in a CM4, decided to run.

But, sorry, low wake not possible. Mass locked and got a pounding. Damn... i need to high wake! Nope, not enough time, i was dead before my poor synapses could react. Even if i had hit high wake straight away, i don't think i would have made it.

After my last deaths in CZ, i had sworn off combat... but this wasn't me seeking out a challenging fight... the fight found me, and i lost it.

I'm now in the position where the only way I dare exit the station without worry is to get in my A grade Vulture, and even that is risky. Anything else, its a death sentence. I can understand git gud if i'm seeking out dedicated combat. But from what i see so far, i can't even go out in anything that isn't a combat ship.

I have offered advice to those flying trade ships, i've read the guides people have posted post 2.1... I thought it wasn't people adapting... but now, i understand i was wrong. As far as I can tell (and manbe its my own lack of skill), the new AI are brutal, and this is coming from an expereinced player. I shudder to think how new players will fare.

I thought the new AI, until the new patch, would limit my combat activities. Now, after being destroyed near a station (earlier today) and after interdiction, i now realize i can't actually do anything, unless i'm in a full combat fitted ship.

Git gud? Sorry, i'm as good as i can be. I've played long enough. I'm at my personal skill cap. I might get marginally better, but that's it. Fine, i'll stay away from combat... but as things stand, i need to stay away from everything. I can't travel in a non-combat ship, and if the AI remains at its current level, it means i'm locked out of flying anything not combat related.

I can only hope at this point, that SJA either tones things down (which will annoy those looking for harder AI) or makes adaptive AI which matches itself to the skill level of the pilot.... or at least stops sending killing machines against people flying weaker ships, no matter their combat rank.

As of this point, the game simply isn't any fun any more.

To anyone I said they needed to adapt to the new AI, my apologies. I had underestimated it.

I think if they keep the AI as is they should consider doing a reset to the Combat Rankings to give everyone a clean slate due to just how wildly different the AI is now compared to when 90percent of the players ranked up. They could even give an emblem or a special paint job to players who had hit Elite in combat before the reset. If they went with this method it could be another way to see if players are more happy when they're more properly placed on the combat ranking scale. If that doesn't work then they could probably nerf the AI in specific ways with more certainty. I do hope though they work through this balancing issue though first before trying to re-implement the Beta 4 AI in 2.2 like they hinted at before the beta was over.

 

[rrobes]

It's way too early to make such assumptions. The game itself is dependant on which missions a player chooses to involve themselves in so give it a few days and see how your overall experience has been.
You can't judge on one or two experiences and only regarding flying one ship when numerous other players fly different ships.

I'm just glad they're working on it so proper feedback is of paramount importance.

This wasn't an assumption, it was a first person account based on an actual experience, I didn't make an all encompassing judgement as to NPC's in every situation. As to the bell shaped curve, that was a statement based on what the voting numbers have shown. The NPC's are behaving differently that before the current changes, that is also an observation based on first person experience.

But I agree with you 100% on their response to feedback.

"The Stars My Destination"
Alfred Bester

 

[Cmdr Alexei Jaeger]

Don't think the AI/Weapons have been fixed yet. I got interdicted by an Expert Python in my Trade Clipper. It had my shield down to the last ring whilst I was still spinning. I only had 20% hull by the time I boosted out of range and my Clipper is Fast for a non modified ship. Escaping an unmodified Python of Expert rank should have been easy. I even have 2 Point Defenses to take out missiles whilst boosting away. Not sure if that saved me or wasn't working which is why my hull damage got so low. This uncertainty is so frustrating and spoiling the playing experience.

The annoying thing was that I was winning interdiction until it started glitching. This is a bug that needs fixing now as losing an interdiction can be lethal. I reckon 1 in 5 interdictions are glitching, sometimes you win sometimes you lose but it shouldn't be random that often.

Also has anyone else found that you spin out of control more violently and for longer now after winning/losing interdictions. The AI doesn't have the same issue and can often start firing whilst my ship is still spinning like crazy. Although the Ram Scans have stopped the AI has now started Joust Ramming the only Death so far was when my Vulture was taken out by a very rammy Asp Explorer which is why I switched to trading.

I think I'll try and stop playing for a few days and hope things settle down don't know which ships are safe to take out at moment.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Well, after today's antics, i wish i could change my vote to: AI is too hard.

In fact, i'm beginning to think its insane.

Yes, i know some people are saying how they can take down anacondas in sidewinders with one hand tied behind their backs, and kudos to you. I've not been too bothered by the AI until now (minus the bugs about super rapid fire weapons, which were annoying), but then, i jumped in my CM4 to do some piracy. Lovely ship, but it has some weaknesses... erm... quite a few. But anyway. Headed out to go pew-pew myself some traders. Unfortunately, just as i was locking onto a trader, i got interdicted.

No worries eh? Oh... Vulture +1 other... not sure, didn't even get a look at him.

No way was i taking a vulture on in a CM4, decided to run.

But, sorry, low wake not possible. Mass locked and got a pounding. Damn... i need to high wake! Nope, not enough time, i was dead before my poor synapses could react. Even if i had hit high wake straight away, i don't think i would have made it.

After my last deaths in CZ, i had sworn off combat... but this wasn't me seeking out a challenging fight... the fight found me, and i lost it.

I'm now in the position where the only way I dare exit the station without worry is to get in my A grade Vulture, and even that is risky. Anything else, its a death sentence. I can understand git gud if i'm seeking out dedicated combat. But from what i see so far, i can't even go out in anything that isn't a combat ship.

I have offered advice to those flying trade ships, i've read the guides people have posted post 2.1... I thought it wasn't people adapting... but now, i understand i was wrong. As far as I can tell (and manbe its my own lack of skill), the new AI are brutal, and this is coming from an expereinced player. I shudder to think how new players will fare.

I thought the new AI, until the new patch, would limit my combat activities. Now, after being destroyed near a station (earlier today) and after interdiction, i now realize i can't actually do anything, unless i'm in a full combat fitted ship.

Git gud? Sorry, i'm as good as i can be. I've played long enough. I'm at my personal skill cap. I might get marginally better, but that's it. Fine, i'll stay away from combat... but as things stand, i need to stay away from everything. I can't travel in a non-combat ship, and if the AI remains at its current level, it means i'm locked out of flying anything not combat related.

I can only hope at this point, that SJA either tones things down (which will annoy those looking for harder AI) or makes adaptive AI which matches itself to the skill level of the pilot.... or at least stops sending killing machines against people flying weaker ships, no matter their combat rank.

As of this point, the game simply isn't any fun any more.

To anyone I said they needed to adapt to the new AI, my apologies. I had underestimated it.

This sounds a bit like the Aggro AI bug to me, another one they are currently trying to fix.

I continue to find the AI to be just right.....even if its a bit of a 'mixed bag'. I had a Mostly Harmless Federal Gunship give me quite a run for my money (got me to 60% hull), yet a Competent Adder was easy pickings.....though I churned through my point defense a bit .

 

[killerofstars]

This sounds a bit like the Aggro AI bug to me, another one they are currently trying to fix.

I continue to find the AI to be just right.....even if its a bit of a 'mixed bag'. I had a Mostly Harmless Federal Gunship give me quite a run for my money (got me to 60% hull), yet a Competent Adder was easy pickings.....though I churned through my point defense a bit .

See this is the problem with the disparity. I think a lot of people saying the AI is just fine haven't really encountered the harder AIs. There's a world of difference between a competent and a mostly harmless, and an elite or dangerous or deadly. I've fought elite imperial cobras and Cobra mark IIIs that maneuvered with superhuman skill. I couldn't even really get my guns on them.

It's all about what you're facing.

 

[Mythbusting]

I don't understand these polls. Is the problem the difficulty, or that Frontier is treating everyone as one-size-fits-all? Some players enjoy this setting, others don't. There are times when I enjoy a casual shooter, and times I want a challenge. Put in places with varying levels of challenge.

Right now, 'lower difficulty' just means having AI fight AI for you in low/high-RES. I get to take a couple shots, and then watch the AI fight it out. Woo. It just feels boring.

 

[WR3ND]

See this is the problem with the disparity. I think a lot of people saying the AI is just fine haven't really encountered the harder AIs. There's a world of difference between a competent and a mostly harmless, and an elite or dangerous or deadly. I've fought elite imperial cobras and Cobra mark IIIs that maneuvered with superhuman skill. I couldn't even really get my guns on them.

It's all about what you're facing.

So you're saying we need more elite, dangerous, and deadly NPCs then?

Wait until the next patch update with NPC adjustments. We'll see how it goes then.

 

[Bacalao]

I think we should constrain the harder AI to special areas. Danger zones, combat zones, haz res, whatever you want to call it. So that if you're looking for that AI you can find your challenge, but if you dont want that...you can fly in relative peace.

Everyone has to remember: That EVEN IF we went back to how the AI FLEW before (sans the death spin bug) that the AI ships now are vastly better outfitted. I never saw railguns and plasma guns on adders (or shield cell banks for that matter) before.

Also please keep in mind, not everybody is having the same experiences. I had a fight in a RES that was pretty normal until two dangerous adders attacked me for no good reason I could see. (and I got a bounty for firing back because I didnt wait for the scan to complete. They need to fix that.) And I've fought ships that wouldn't get off my tail no matter what I did. Your experiences with the new AI might not reflect everyone else's, relative skill levels or no.

This, high ranked AI should be found predominantly in places they would be called for, high intensity areas, RES, compromised nav beacons, conflict zones. , essentially the places highly skilled players like to hang around because that is where the money is, supercruise and other areas should scale down significantly. After all, getting to elite is no mean feat, they should be sprinkled rather thin as far as random encounters go.

 

[Mohenjo]

Again, I'm not sure the Poll can tell us anything. I'm forced to wonder how many people who think the AI is too hard haven't voted BECAUSE THEY QUIT THE GAME. I've seen LOTS of posts by people saying they're done with it because of this. That's sure to skew the poll.

More worryingly, it speaks to what I've been warning about all along. You don't want to force customers out of the game. Players facing an AI they think is too easy can STILL PLAY. Players facing an AI they find too hard... are SOL. They CANNOT PLAY. That is serious, if you ask me.

 

[killerofstars]

More worryingly, it speaks to what I've been warning about all along. You don't want to force customers out of the game. Players facing an AI they think is too easy can STILL PLAY. Players facing an AI they find too hard... are SOL. They CANNOT PLAY. That is serious, if you ask me.

I had the same thought, but hadn't said it yet.

 

[Mr T]

This, high ranked AI should be found predominantly in places they would be called for, high intensity areas, RES, compromised nav beacons, conflict zones. , essentially the places highly skilled players like to hang around because that is where the money is, supercruise and other areas should scale down significantly. After all, getting to elite is no mean feat, they should be sprinkled rather thin as far as random encounters go.

+1, I agree with this concept (if it can be implemented)

 

[Faded Glory]

This, high ranked AI should be found predominantly in places they would be called for, high intensity areas, RES, compromised nav beacons, conflict zones. , essentially the places highly skilled players like to hang around because that is where the money is, supercruise and other areas should scale down significantly. After all, getting to elite is no mean feat, they should be sprinkled rather thin as far as random encounters go.

I think this is about right. The higher ranked ships should still be out there, certainly triggered if a player takes a mission of high rank, or potentially goes to an anarchy system. Otherwise, proportionally one should encounter a few Harmless / Mostly Harmless, plenty of Competent through Master, a few Dangerous / Deadly, and very occasionally an Elite. It's fine to have to run away, but it shouldn't be the norm, that would become very unsatisfying game play.

 

[Tatwi]

I'm not sure it's totally fixed. I just stopped at a "0 risk level" signal source and in the time it took to press the retract cargo scoop button, something swooped in and completely obliterated me. I have a Hauler with a 2A shield and military bulkheads. Normally I can take a few hits, but whatever that was all pew pew splode! By the time I pushed H, I was already at the eject animation, so I don't know what kind of ship it was. I am a "Novice" in combat rank.

I'm fine with hard, but no chance at all isn't even a game.

 

[Darrett]

I just want to compare and contrast a little bit with what experiences we've all had in the game so far.

What I've seen is this: AI fire more often and more accurately across the board. Even harmless NPCs will fire if you give them the chance. This is good.

Mid and high ranked AI circle more readily and will not deviate from that circle. This causes a lot of even turning battles to force the player to wait for NPC backup to trigger a reaction. The new engineering buffs have allowed significantly slower ships to turn with faster, unmodified ones. I've found my DBS being locked in a turning battle with FDLs, Cobras and Vipers that I can normally out-pitch. This means my options are to FA off boost and trigger a head to head (not ideal, especially with an FDL) or wait for NPC backup. This is a problem that will go away once I get modded drives, but in the short term isn't fun at all.

NPC survival logic doesn't seem improved, which is a shame. Though I don't like them fleeing as soon as shields drop since some ships lack the damage potential to strip hull before a high wake, some attempt to break off combat would be nice. I fought a competent Viper above a planet the other day. He wasn't wanted (but had pirate AI package), and he missed his first rail gun shot. I fired back just afterwards, and he wasn't wanted, so I got a bounty for assault. I took him down to 1% hull and no shields and he still wouldn't run.

NPCs seem to be equipped with rails and PAs more than before, or use them more readily. The only part about this that is somewhat bothersome is that NPCs can equip for the short term, while players have to take longer term into account. This is why I don't tend to use C1 missiles, while NPCs will do so because they're not trying to stay alive through 10-15 battles like we are.

The stop and spin seems to be gone. The only times I've seen it were when drives were malfunctioning.

Low rank NPCs are back to doing the vertical wave maneuver where they make no effort to circle you at all, they just go up and down repeatedly. Even a brand new player would try to turn in a circle now and then.

I've noticed escaping interdictions to be more "fair". Fewer instances of the circle moving off in spinning circles that move faster than the fastest rate of pitch and roll your ship can do. Overall difficulty seems to be down a little though, being most difficult at first and then becoming very easy to escape if you weather the initial storm.

Any other experiences/agreements or disagreements?

 

[PavelKCZ]

IMHO the fight AI is OK now. But the interdicting part of AI is totally crazy and way off.

I was interdicted FOUR TIMES, just during the travel from Andhrimi/Yourchinko station to the Andhrimi/Nav Beacon - something like 20 Ls.
And every time, the same boring stuff like "You looks like having juicy cargo" etc. All this crap when I was flying in Cobra with 2t of Praseodymium. I escaped every time, but this is really boring, time consuming and lack of fun.

 

[Lheim]

I think this is about right. The higher ranked ships should still be out there, certainly triggered if a player takes a mission of high rank, or potentially goes to an anarchy system. Otherwise, proportionally one should encounter a few Harmless / Mostly Harmless, plenty of Competent through Master, a few Dangerous / Deadly, and very occasionally an Elite. It's fine to have to run away, but it shouldn't be the norm, that would become very unsatisfying game play.

Suggested this a few days ago.

If we have such hard, well-geared AI.. let it be in 'high level zones': Haz-Res, CNBs, anarchy systems, and so it'll be a choice. Let it pay correspondingly more, as it apparently was in earlier versions of the game, and let the AI fly in those zones.

But, as it is now, this scattergun randomness that has these deadly AI pop up anywhere has newbies facing down deadly FDLs and trade ships having to give up more than half their cargo space to avoid being insta-gibbed by wings.

This isn't the meditative space game I've liked so much prior to this patch, and it's not the game that rewards thoughtfulness anymore. You fly to apparently random planets to search around aimlessly for mats now, and fly around randomly getting caught by random strength npc foes to get semi-random gear off them. There's *some* thoughtfulness in the apparently greater responsiveness of security in high-sec systems; that's good - but that kinda gameplay where forethought will be rewarded in your journeys is just not a focus of this patch

Prior to crafting.. if I was looking for some reason for some commodity, I could read the commodity's description, see that fruits and vegs come from agricultural worlds, go to my galaxy tab, find one, and be reasonably certain I could purchase some. Thoughtfulness, right?

Not so, arsenic. Arsenic is 'drive around like a dope, and hope.' Ditto every other planet-based synth mat - where the bleep would I have a reasonable chance of finding Yttrium? I don't even know what that is, aside of a tile on the periodic table. About the only predictable mat I know how to find is 'go to metal world, you'll probably see iron cuz it's everywhere'.

There's so much to like about 2.1; but this severe combat focus just mars the mood, it's a stress-out. And it's more grind-focused than thoughtfulness-focused, now, too, and that's another thing I wish they'd back down from.

 

[Faded Glory]

I just want to compare and contrast a little bit with what experiences we've all had in the game so far.

[snip]

I agree with most of your observations. The new NPCs are much more aggressive, and will try to shoot you, that's good and realistic, and makes engaging wings (who generally now all start attacking straight away), in anything other than a tank much more challenging.

I think some of their load-outs may be a touch OP, and could probably do with a balance pass or two to get right and match up a bit better with their rank. Either that or their aiming / firing skills. I imagine that will happen.

I have had NPCs run when they decided they were outmatched, so I don't think that element is totally gone. It's a really tough one for FD to get right IMO, as NPCs are our content, and if they run away all the time it becomes frustrating and potentially boring gameplay. Ultimately, a majority need to stay to the death (again IMO).

 

[Faded Glory]

Suggested this a few days ago.

If we have such hard, well-geared AI.. let it be in 'high level zones': Haz-Res, CNBs, anarchy systems, and so it'll be a choice. Let it pay correspondingly more, as it apparently was in earlier versions of the game, and let the AI fly in those zones.

But, as it is now, this scattergun randomness that has these deadly AI pop up anywhere has newbies facing down deadly FDLs and trade ships having to give up more than half their cargo space to avoid being insta-gibbed by wings.

Yes, I've been saying it for a while too...

That said, I don't think the earlier versions of the game had 'zones' where you could go and farm combat. Certainly Frontier : Elite II didn't. The nearest you came to that was going to one of the relatively rare anarchy systems like Reidquat where you knew you would be attacked. I can't say for certain about the other two games...

It may be that FD felt that had to have constant on demand and on tap combat for todays market.

This isn't the meditative space game I've liked so much prior to this patch, and it's not the game that rewards thoughtfulness anymore. You fly to apparently random planets to search around aimlessly for mats now, and fly around randomly getting caught by random strength npc foes to get semi-random gear off them. There's *some* thoughtfulness in the apparently greater responsiveness of security in high-sec systems; that's good - but that kinda gameplay where forethought will be rewarded in your journeys is just not a focus of this patch

Prior to crafting.. if I was looking for some reason for some commodity, I could read the commodity's description, see that fruits and vegs come from agricultural worlds, go to my galaxy tab, find one, and be reasonably certain I could purchase some. Thoughtfulness, right?

Not so, arsenic. Arsenic is 'drive around like a dope, and hope.' Ditto every other planet-based synth mat - where the bleep would I have a reasonable chance of finding Yttrium? I don't even know what that is, aside of a tile on the periodic table. About the only predictable mat I know how to find is 'go to metal world, you'll probably see iron cuz it's everywhere'.

There's so much to like about 2.1; but this severe combat focus just mars the mood, it's a stress-out. And it's more grind-focused than thoughtfulness-focused, now, too, and that's another thing I wish they'd back down from.

Not sure I completely agree about thoughtfulness though. If FD get what they are trying to do right, then players will have to think about what they are doing, what missions they are taking (due to the ranking system), and where they choose to fly, perhaps even checking the security level of the system(s) involved!

As for the searching for materials, well that's a different issue, and I have to say I'm finding it hard to get engaged with it. It's a bit of a step backwards to have to just dip into random signal sources to try and find stuff, back to aimlessly flying around in SC hoping the right source will spawn, which is a shame now that missions actually have a specific destination.