Discuss AI here (After Engineer mods removal)

[Marc_Hicks]

See this is the problem with the disparity. I think a lot of people saying the AI is just fine haven't really encountered the harder AIs. There's a world of difference between a competent and a mostly harmless, and an elite or dangerous or deadly. I've fought elite imperial cobras and Cobra mark IIIs that maneuvered with superhuman skill. I couldn't even really get my guns on them.

It's all about what you're facing.

I encountered harder AI's during the Beta testing, & I still say that the AI is just fine as is.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I don't understand these polls. Is the problem the difficulty, or that Frontier is treating everyone as one-size-fits-all? Some players enjoy this setting, others don't. There are times when I enjoy a casual shooter, and times I want a challenge. Put in places with varying levels of challenge.

Right now, 'lower difficulty' just means having AI fight AI for you in low/high-RES. I get to take a couple shots, and then watch the AI fight it out. Woo. It just feels boring.

No, random encounters are scaled to your current skill level.

 

[Mohenjo]

A question...

Suppose I get jumped by something I know I can't take on (which is pretty well ANYTHING now...). What happens if I just close the game? Quit, or Alt+F4? What if I do it when being interdicted? What if I do it after submitting to interdiction?


(And for the record, I find it very sad that it's even necessary to ask such a question...)

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I'm not sure it's totally fixed. I just stopped at a "0 risk level" signal source and in the time it took to press the retract cargo scoop button, something swooped in and completely obliterated me. I have a Hauler with a 2A shield and military bulkheads. Normally I can take a few hits, but whatever that was all pew pew splode! By the time I pushed H, I was already at the eject animation, so I don't know what kind of ship it was. I am a "Novice" in combat rank.

I'm fine with hard, but no chance at all isn't even a game.

Glad you said this, I've been investigating some USSes now that we can get some sense of what's there... In theory, anyway...
Won't be doing any more of THAT.

 

[Codger]

Interesting that the 'too hard' vote is slowly creeping up, just like it did last time. Doesn't appear that it will go as high this time, though, which is good. I think things are a little better, but there are still lots of issues with interdictions and NPC levels that need to be ironed out, on top of the actual bugs. I sure hope FD can figure it all out, because it's a bit of mess at the moment.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

A question...

Suppose I get jumped by something I know I can't take on (which is pretty well ANYTHING now...). What happens if I just close the game? Quit, or Alt+F4? What if I do it when being interdicted? What if I do it after submitting to interdiction?


(And for the record, I find it very sad that it's even necessary to ask such a question...)

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Glad you said this, I've been investigating some USSes now that we can get some sense of what's there... In theory, anyway...
Won't be doing any more of THAT.

USS's are almost always true to their threat level, but every so often pirates will be lying in wait....which I consider good, as it keeps you on your toes .

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Interesting that the 'too hard' vote is slowly creeping up, just like it did last time. Doesn't appear that it will go as high this time, though, which is good. I think things are a little better, but there are still lots of issues with interdictions and NPC levels that need to be ironed out, on top of the actual bugs. I sure hope FD can figure it all out, because it's a bit of mess at the moment.

Actually, its been stuck at about 25% since this poll started.

 

[Faded Glory]

No, random encounters are scaled to your current skill level.

If they are, and I've personally never seen anything from FD saying that is how it's supposed to work, then there are clearly some balancing issues if what we read here on the forums is to be believed.

 

[Zazzilas Arden]

27% still say it's too hard.

27% will continue to do so until the NPCs stop shooting back and once again start going into the roll of death.

Shameful.

 

[Xae]

The AI still isn't very good.

The ships just gets AI hacks. I'm really tired of NPC ships that are very obviously packing huge bonuses completely unrelated to engineer mods.

Engineer Mods don't let a DBE go 700m/s.

Engineer Mods don't let an Anaconda hit you with a Frag cannon at 8km.

Engineer Mods don't let a Cobra Mk4 do a sub 2second 180 degree pitch.

 

[ammonitida]

27% still say it's too hard.

27% will continue to do so until the NPCs stop shooting back and once again start going into the roll of death.

Shameful.

Pretty much. People are still complaining about losing fair and square. But instead of admitting that they suck, they attribute it to "bugs" or engineer mods.


I'm very disappointed that Frontier axed engineer mods for NPCs. No point now in getting weapon mods for myself. I don't want to have an even greater advantage over the AI than I already do as a conscious being.

 

[Xae]

Pretty much. People are still complaining about losing fair and square. But instead of admitting that they suck, they attribute it to "bugs" or engineer mods.


I'm very disappointed that Frontier axed engineer mods for NPCs. No point now in getting weapon mods for myself. I don't want to have an even greater advantage over the AI than I already do as a conscious being.

Here is why you should stop posting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_6HjebZFYs

 

[DaveB]

Well, after today's antics, i wish i could change my vote to: AI is too hard.

In fact, i'm beginning to think its insane.

Yes, i know some people are saying how they can take down anacondas in sidewinders with one hand tied behind their backs, and kudos to you. I've not been too bothered by the AI until now (minus the bugs about super rapid fire weapons, which were annoying), but then, i jumped in my CM4 to do some piracy. Lovely ship, but it has some weaknesses... erm... quite a few. But anyway. Headed out to go pew-pew myself some traders. Unfortunately, just as i was locking onto a trader, i got interdicted.

No worries eh? Oh... Vulture +1 other... not sure, didn't even get a look at him.

No way was i taking a vulture on in a CM4, decided to run.

But, sorry, low wake not possible. Mass locked and got a pounding. Damn... i need to high wake! Nope, not enough time, i was dead before my poor synapses could react. Even if i had hit high wake straight away, i don't think i would have made it.

After my last deaths in CZ, i had sworn off combat... but this wasn't me seeking out a challenging fight... the fight found me, and i lost it.

I'm now in the position where the only way I dare exit the station without worry is to get in my A grade Vulture, and even that is risky. Anything else, its a death sentence. I can understand git gud if i'm seeking out dedicated combat. But from what i see so far, i can't even go out in anything that isn't a combat ship.

I have offered advice to those flying trade ships, i've read the guides people have posted post 2.1... I thought it wasn't people adapting... but now, i understand i was wrong. As far as I can tell (and manbe its my own lack of skill), the new AI are brutal, and this is coming from an expereinced player. I shudder to think how new players will fare.

I thought the new AI, until the new patch, would limit my combat activities. Now, after being destroyed near a station (earlier today) and after interdiction, i now realize i can't actually do anything, unless i'm in a full combat fitted ship.

Git gud? Sorry, i'm as good as i can be. I've played long enough. I'm at my personal skill cap. I might get marginally better, but that's it. Fine, i'll stay away from combat... but as things stand, i need to stay away from everything. I can't travel in a non-combat ship, and if the AI remains at its current level, it means i'm locked out of flying anything not combat related.

I can only hope at this point, that SJA either tones things down (which will annoy those looking for harder AI) or makes adaptive AI which matches itself to the skill level of the pilot.... or at least stops sending killing machines against people flying weaker ships, no matter their combat rank.

As of this point, the game simply isn't any fun any more.

To anyone I said they needed to adapt to the new AI, my apologies. I had underestimated it.

This is exactly why I argued, a couple of days and a few threads ago, against scaling of NPCs to the players rank. Not because players might have "ranked too high" against pre-2.1 NPCs, but because a player hitting their skill cap then has their ENTIRE gameplay closed off by the NPCs they can't beat, not just combat progression. This is exactly the scenario I predicted players would face. If fights you can't win keep finding you once you hit a certain combination of rank and your innate skill, that's effectively "Game Over" - something that truly should never be a thing in any part of the Elite franchise.

I'm sorry it had to be you proving me correct

 

[ammonitida]

Here is why you should stop posting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_6HjebZFYs

I've already seen that, thank you. People are still describing events where they were bested by smarter AI, fair and square. I never encountered such a bug as seen in the video, and I can say that all my (few) losses to deadly and Elite AI were fair and square.

 

[Mohenjo]

Pretty much. People are still complaining about losing fair and square. But instead of admitting that they suck, they attribute it to "bugs" or engineer mods.


I'm very disappointed that Frontier axed engineer mods for NPCs. No point now in getting weapon mods for myself. I don't want to have an even greater advantage over the AI than I already do as a conscious being.

You clearly don't get it. Have you READ the threads?

The AI is too hard for MANY players to handle. Whether it's because they "suck" or because their ships are equipped for activities other than combat is beside the point. The point is that IT IS TOO HARD FOR MANY PLAYERS.

This situation cannot continue because the company will LOSE PLAYERS, and thereby LOSE REVENUE.

Most people don't want EASY. They want to be challenged. They just want to have a CHANCE of victory. At present, unless you're kitted to the teeth for combat, there is NO chance (I'm sure some wag will announce there is a chance, but I've a "chance" of winning the lottery, too...).

We ALL play for our enjoyment. That enjoyment will NOT be achieved when every effort we make to accomplish anything is thwarted by NPC ships we cannot overcome. Players who don't enjoy the game don't PLAY the game... and don't PAY for the game either.

 

[Xae]

This is exactly why I argued, a couple of days and a few threads ago, against scaling of NPCs to the players rank. Not because players might have "ranked too high" against pre-2.1 NPCs, but because a player hitting their skill cap then has their ENTIRE gameplay closed off by the NPCs they can't beat, not just combat progression. This is exactly the scenario I predicted players would face. If fights you can't win keep finding you once you hit a certain combination of rank and your innate skill, that's effectively "Game Over" - something that truly should never be a thing in any part of the Elite franchise.

I'm sorry it had to be you proving me correct

On a long enough time line every player, no matter how bad, will hit Elite.

Using it as a skill measure shouldn't have made it out of the first design session.

 

[Mohenjo]

I've already seen that, thank you. People are still describing events where they were bested by smarter AI, fair and square. I never encountered such a bug as seen in the video, and I can say that all my (few) losses to deadly and Elite AI were fair and square.

I'm not seeing smarter. If the AI ships are being given the ability to turn tighter than player ships, that's not a matter of smarter AI, that's just making them OP. If they're being given weapons that magically do more damage than the same weapons on player ships, that's not smarter AI, that's just making them OP. It's not a matter of smart. It's just a matter of making their ships unnaturally stronger.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Pretty much. People are still complaining about losing fair and square. But instead of admitting that they suck, they attribute it to "bugs" or engineer mods.


I'm very disappointed that Frontier axed engineer mods for NPCs. No point now in getting weapon mods for myself. I don't want to have an even greater advantage over the AI than I already do as a conscious being.

Yep, I have lost fair and square several times, & I have taken it on the chin. Some people are just upset that RES farming isn't a thing anymore.

 

[Mohenjo]

Yep, I have lost fair and square several times, & I have taken it on the chin. Some people are just upset that RES farming isn't a thing anymore.

I don't farm anything. I'm not interested in farming anything. All I want is to be able to explore and trade in relative peace. I can't do that anymore, because every planet I try to land on has armadas of invincible NPCs flying around it. Every system I enter to deliver cargo, I get interdicted 7, 8, 9 times until I either log off or get destroyed by attrition... because there's no way for a trade ship to fight back. It's BROKEN, and it's going to cost them if it isn't fixed.

Belittling people you don't agree with isn't productive or welcome.

 

[ammonitida]

You clearly don't get it. Have you READ the threads?

The AI is too hard for MANY players to handle. Whether it's because they "suck" or because their ships are equipped for activities other than combat is beside the point. The point is that IT IS TOO HARD FOR MANY PLAYERS.

This situation cannot continue because the company will LOSE PLAYERS, and thereby LOSE REVENUE.

Most people don't want EASY. They want to be challenged. They just want to have a CHANCE of victory. At present, unless you're kitted to the teeth for combat, there is NO chance (I'm sure some wag will announce there is a chance, but I've a "chance" of winning the lottery, too...).

We ALL play for our enjoyment. That enjoyment will NOT be achieved when every effort we make to accomplish anything is thwarted by NPC ships we cannot overcome. Players who don't enjoy the game don't PLAY the game... and don't PAY for the game either.

Yes, I've read the complaints from MMORPG grinders who want this game to stay Eve:Online in high sec. This game lost me for weeks because of how EASY the AI was. Even handicaps were not giving me the challenge I wanted. It was TOO EASY FOR MANY PLAYERS too. In a game that doesn't have a thriving PVP component like Eve, the AI needs to be practically HUMAN. Or else, many players will move on.

Players who find it too hard just need more practice. Turn off FA if you must.

That's not asking too much of you. They AI is still AI and predictable.

But why force us to handicap ourselves? How is that fair?

 

[Mohenjo]

It's fair because you can still play if it's easy. If it's too difficult, many people CANNOT play. I'm in that situation now, my ship marooned on a planet with an armada of ships flying around over my head (literally and figuratively).

 

[ammonitida]

I'm not seeing smarter. If the AI ships are being given the ability to turn tighter than player ships, that's not a matter of smarter AI, that's just making them OP. If they're being given weapons that magically do more damage than the same weapons on player ships, that's not smarter AI, that's just making them OP. It's not a matter of smart. It's just a matter of making their ships unnaturally stronger.

The AI has better accuracy and is much more likely to get you in their sites and fire at you. I noticed the difference in my very first 1.6 battle.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I don't farm anything. I'm not interested in farming anything. All I want is to be able to explore and trade in relative peace. I can't do that anymore, because every planet I try to land on has armadas of invincible NPCs flying around it. Every system I enter to deliver cargo, I get interdicted 7, 8, 9 times until I either log off or get destroyed by attrition... because there's no way for a trade ship to fight back. It's BROKEN, and it's going to cost them if it isn't fixed.

Belittling people you don't agree with isn't productive or welcome.

In other words, you want Eve:Online in high sec. Perhaps the patch request should be; Faster police response in hi sec systems or a super high sec region of the galaxy where no pirates dare adventure and you're free to trade in peace.

I don't want high sec Eve:Online in every system.

 

[Mohenjo]

Here's an example I found, of what I'm talking about.

ONE Imperial Eagle in this, against an Asp explorer. It initiates the attack at 7:47. The Asp's shields are pretty well gone by 8:10. That's roughly 23 seconds. The Asp didn't have a hope in blazes of doing ANYTHING against that ship. It's not just an unfair fight, it's an unwinnable one.

That's not good, not for the player's enjoyment, and by extension, not for the game as a whole.

(I should say, this isn't me, nor is it my video...)


https://youtu.be/oJYk3FrFH1I?t=7m46s



- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I don't agree. Its better accuracy is based largely on being able to turn however they like with little restriction. I'd be pretty accurate too, if I could permanently stay directly behind the enemy.