Powerplay So FDev have announced Archon Delaine will Collapse

[Enef]

Hello Commander Martin Schou!

Once a power is meeting collapse conditions (within bottom three, no expansion) then a count will increase for each cycle that sees the power remain meeting these conditions, until either collapse or expansion occurs.

As soon as a power manages to expand the collapse threat should be removed; should the power then fall back into the danger zone the count will start from the beginning again.

The idea is that to kill a power there should be a requirement to "lock down" expansion for a significant period of time, whereas all the power in danger needs to do is manage to expand to give themselves some breathing space.

Hello Sandro,
I understand you are quite excited about the prospect of this dramatic change in powerplay and I apologise in advance if you feel this is hijacking this thread but I and many others feel like there is something far more important and drastic facing powerplay. I admit I've not touched powerplay in several months, I've been in hospital for quite some time and unable to play the game but I keep up with what is going on in powerplay.

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What do you say about the constant calls from the de-facto leaders of the major powerplay player groups to stop powerplay for a short while and make sure fixes are put in place? You see we love powerplay, we honestly do, we put hours and hours into it. We want powerplay to work, to be great, to be what is the end-game of Elite Dangerous. We'd love to help you make it work. Fact is right now the state of powerplay is threatening to destroy the communities it has created. Even now the major group that de-facto controls Winters is thinking of just pulling out altogether and I completely understand why. We feel like we're being ignored and when we are communicated to it's almost as if the devs do not even understand powerplay. Especially when they offer "fixes" which do not fix anything and in fact make the situation worse.

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This is a CRITICAL period for powerplay. This week was supposed to be a triumph. The first whole year of powerplay. A new power on the horizon! If I was the players in that potential new power I'd be looking at the people who currently play powerplay and when I look at them I'd be aghast to see how downtrodden the morale in the entire community is, especially among the leadership who have to try and steer these powers in a smart direction. Who wants to be a part of that when the current community is basically about to call it quits? This is an extreme issue and when all the community groups from across all powers are banding together and saying enough is enough we just seem to get ignored. Have you not seen the poll calling for powerplay to be halted? We'd be happy for that to happen if it means you'll fix it down the line!

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Call Mahon the winner if it means fixing powerplay! Call this Season 1. Take powerplay out of the game, freeze it. Whatever it takes to stop it. These "on the go" fixes just makes it worse for us all. While it's down look at it, fix what is broken, implement those changes you want. We'll happily spend the hours we usually do on powerplay on beta servers giving you feedback. Once all that's done bring it back with a bang, a re-launch. It'll inject life into it again.



Because right now all Fdev is doing is sucking the life out of it. A new power won't change anything. It'll only serve to show others how broken the morale of the community is.

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Sorry if this seems rushed and ill-structured. I'm currently sitting using a tablet as I've not access to a PC in the hospital. I just really wanted to get the point across Sandro, we love what powerplay could be, but how broken it is and these bugs are turning it into something we hate. Please we want to work with you to make it something great. But it needs to be stopped before the community just gives up on it altogether. Stopping it and stating that you're going to fix it will raise our hopes that it truly is cared about and it'll stop these communities leaving and dying out.


CMDR Enef Freestar

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

o7 Enef o7

 

[Corrigendum]

Hello Commander Martin Schou!


Once a power is meeting collapse conditions (within bottom three, no expansion) then a count will increase for each cycle that sees the power remain meeting these conditions, until either collapse or expansion occurs.


As soon as a power manages to expand the collapse threat should be removed; should the power then fall back into the danger zone the count will start from the beginning again.


The idea is that to kill a power there should be a requirement to "lock down" expansion for a significant period of time, whereas all the power in danger needs to do is manage to expand to give themselves some breathing space.

Could you explain why the lack of expansion is the criterion that forces the collapse of a power? A lack of "growth" doesn't necessarily mean a governing body is in danger of collapsing or even stagnant. Rather, it implies stability. Furthermore, "growth" - even in terms of Powerplay - does not necessarily mean a governing body is healthy. There are many instances - especially in Powerplay - when growth is actually detrimental. However, the loss of territory often goes hand-in-hand with collapse - despite Powerplay mechanics currently incentivising the loss of territory.


Wouldn't it make more sense to alter the way negative mechanics (like Upkeep and Overhead) work, so all powers (regardless of size) may be forced to shed systems? Current Powerplay mechanisms enable a literal handful of commanders to fortify a literal handful of systems to maintain status quo in a small power (incentivising the loss of territory to reduce the threat of collapse). If you want proof that this is not a hyperbolic statement, I'm sure many of the members in this thread can provide spreadsheets to illustrate that point, myself included. If you really "prefer action from other powers, such as the fairly massive hammering Archon has suffered over time" as opposed to 5th column activity, make legitimate efforts meaningful.


Also, in the future, please do not describe unimplemented mechanics in the official publicly distributed manual. In this instance, thousands of player-hours (not just folks targeting Archon - Patreus and Torval were similarly targeted, though not as diligently) were rendered relatively meaningless because an officially described mechanic is still not implemented after a full year of Powerplay. I can tell you that there are a lot of angry folks who are too polite to post numerous threads to the forums petulantly expressing their vitriol in like manner to this thread. But then, the squeaky wheel does get the grease...

 

[Cmdr Basskicker]

CMDR Enef Freestar

Very good to see you again man. I hope all is well.

 

[Darth Ender]

meh. I find the whole expand or die mechanic way too simplistic. There's no quality aspect to a power, just quantity and that's definitely a miss with power play. In the end it doesn't matter who your power is, how they wield that power and what that means for the people under them.

I think FD could have stole some pages from Civilization's book and created a much richer experience. Allowing the mechanism for collapse to be based on the power's own people deciding when to throw them off because the power has been unable to achieve X,Y,Z needed to keep them in control. That would allow size and growth to simply be a factor, not the entire mechanism.

 

[withnail]

I can tell you that there are a lot of angry folks who are too polite to post numerous threads to the forums petulantly expressing their vitriol in like manner to this thread. But then, the squeaky wheel does get the grease...

I still don't understand why you lot just took it without even a whimper.

 

[Martin Schou]

Call Mahon the winner if it means fixing powerplay!

You know things are critical when Winters is willing to concede to the Green Giant.

If PowerPlay can get fixed (properly and preferably deeply), I wouldn't even care about who gets declared a winner. I already have golden wings, I don't need a trophy (but I won't say no to one of course).

Take the required time, and as Enef said, some of us are definitely willing to spend a shed load of time in a proper beta to test things out, and then even more importantly, take our feedback very seriously.

Some of us basically live for this part of the game, and we can tell you in seconds that the some of the things you spend hours or even days coming up with won't work. That's why we pretty much immediately shot down your suggestion of removing fast tracking of preparation merits as a solution to sabotage. It sounds like a good idea, but if you've actually spent serious time participating in PowerPlay as an organizer, it's almost instantly recognized a horrible and once that will simply make sabotage even more effective.

You see it all the time on these forums as well. "Why do we reward people for overfortifying?!?" is pretty much a standard thread being started every other or third week, and it typically only takes an hour or two before some of us (the PowerPlay nut cases typically) shoot down the ideas proposed for fixing it. Not because it's a stupid question, but because we know the game well enough to know exactly what the knock-on effect will be - complete and utter chaos as big combat powers end up preparing every single populated system that is less than 20 light years from one of their control systems with complete disregard for its value. And that's without getting into the intricacies of inbound vs outbound fortifications.

This kind of intimate knowledge is also why I have suggested multiple times to have a PowerPlay Tsar/Manager/Producer/Community Manager. Someone who knows the community and/or PowerPlay well enough to recognize that something is a bad idea, either on their own or because the community as a whole is downright revolting against it. This is my own biggest gripe with the current situation - the people in the know are being completely ignored when they say "this is the worst thing to ever happen in PowerPlay" and with no explanation as to why Frontier thinks it IS a good idea. We're being treated like 3-year-olds having a temper tantrum, when the reality is that we're angry because someone just ran a steamroller over our car, and we're being given bus far as a replacement and told "it's only a minor inconvenience". By the way, in this simile Winters and Patreus are travelling salesmen who need the car for work, Torval works 50 miles from the nearest public transportation and Sirius works in a part of town where the bus only shows up once a fortnight.

We get extremely upset because we care. We care a lot, and we see the huge potential that this offers, and every time

Communicating with your customers is extremely important, and in some aspects of Elite: Dangerous Frontier does a fantastic job. Honestly. But for PowerPlay it honestly feels like we're talking to Groot. You're good people, but you don't speak our language, and most of the time we're left wondering if you even understand what we're saying.

 

[Roybe]

Hello Commander Martin Schou!

Once a power is meeting collapse conditions (within bottom three, no expansion) then a count will increase for each cycle that sees the power remain meeting these conditions, until either collapse or expansion occurs.

As soon as a power manages to expand the collapse threat should be removed; should the power then fall back into the danger zone the count will start from the beginning again.

The idea is that to kill a power there should be a requirement to "lock down" expansion for a significant period of time, whereas all the power in danger needs to do is manage to expand to give themselves some breathing space.

Point of clarification please:

'then a count will increase for each cycle that sees the power remain meeting these conditions'

Does this mean 'after x weeks' the Power always collapses
OR
'after x weeks' the Powers chances to collapse increase <in this case, does the 'count' ever get to the point that the Power will always 'fail'?>

This is a very important distinction that could cause a lot of misunderstandings!

Power x is 'counting' but beats their 'chances' for a large number of weeks,

Whereas, at a later <earlier?> date Power Y lost their 'chances' in a very few weeks.

In other words, X rolls the dice well for a longer period than y...and stays in the game longer...Y rolled poorly and was outed sooner.

 

[Corrigendum]

We get extremely upset because we care. We care a lot, and we see the huge potential that this offers

You're good people, but you don't speak our language, and most of the time we're left wondering if you even understand what we're saying.

What my esteemed colleague is saying is, "help us help you," or at the very least, "let us help."

When it comes down to it, we want to help see PowerPlay become something players don't want to miss out on - not a "marmite feature." We don't want to people to turn their noses up at it or spread it lightly on toast. We want it to be such a rich experience that people get cavities just looking at it.

And for the love, please don't make Torval walk those 50 miles anymore. She had a fall the other week and nearly broke her hip. And I'm really tired of Patreus knocking on my door every day asking me if I want to buy some death sticks...

 

[Bigglesof206]

i've been wondering the same as Roybe for some time.
Collapse - so you are in the bottom three and fail to expand, and a fail counter gets incremented. (Any week you do expand resets the counter to zero). Then there is some chance to collapse in any week that counter is non-zero, which could imply that as the number increases collapse is more likely, or it could be that collapse chance increases simply because you are getting a collapse die roll week after week - imagine a six sided die is being rolled, it may be that you collapse by throwing a one, and if you roll often enough you are eventually going to score that one, or it could be that in week one you are out on a one, after a second week it's a one or a two.....

Whichever case it is (or for pretty much any alternative version that springs to my mind at least) there's an element of luck in it that suggests power A might qualify for collapse for 5 consecutive weeks, never throw the required number, manage to expands in week six and stay in the game, whilst power B gets into the collapse bracket a week later, throws a one at the first go, and is out after one week at the bottom. Whilst I can see that this might well be just down to pure luck, I can't help feeling that if A were Mahon and B were our very own Pirate lord then there might be a lot of unhappy people shouting 'fix', whether it were true or not.

I can see that simply saying something like '5 weeks in the collapse bracket and off you go' is probably too simple, the longer you are in the bracket the more at risk you become sounds fair, equally other factors could be included that make sense, and add perhaps to the sense of immersion - for example collapse might be delayed if there were no suitable minor power to promote into the empty space, but I'm a little worried that the collapse mechanic might remain a baffling mystery which continues to frustrate those trying to plan coherent campaigns.

Whilst it is good to see Sandro taking part in the discussion, his language at times worries me - as the design boss I tend to assume he knows everything, and when he writes that "as he understands it" the collapse mechanic works a certain way, rather than 'it DOES work this way' it makes me wonder a bit why his language isn't a bit more definite.... I would LOVE to have 'the head of PP design' identified on here, and taking part in our discussions on a no doubt irregular basis, and I think it would be a damn good idea if such a person carried out discussions with the faction heads, the guys who really know PP inside out, because (and this is not an insult, honest) I'm pretty sure that the various faction planning groups actually understands the interactions of PP better than those programming it. It's a natural outcome, those immersing themselves and poring over every minute item in PP are bound to end up understanding how it actually WORKS in real life better than those who program it whose understanding is of how it is INTENDED to work.

Dave

 

[Rubbernuke]

What's frightening is that Power play is designed to make powers fail. We have to expand, or we die. We get too big, we turmoil and die in all probability.

 

[GoStu]

Some of us basically live for this part of the game, and we can tell you in seconds that the some of the things you spend hours or even days coming up with won't work. That's why we pretty much immediately shot down your suggestion of removing fast tracking of preparation merits as a solution to sabotage. It sounds like a good idea, but if you've actually spent serious time participating in PowerPlay as an organizer, it's almost instantly recognized a horrible and once that will simply make sabotage even more effective.

You see it all the time on these forums as well. "Why do we reward people for overfortifying?!?" is pretty much a standard thread being started every other or third week, and it typically only takes an hour or two before some of us (the PowerPlay nut cases typically) shoot down the ideas proposed for fixing it. Not because it's a stupid question, but because we know the game well enough to know exactly what the knock-on effect will be - complete and utter chaos as big combat powers end up preparing every single populated system that is less than 20 light years from one of their control systems with complete disregard for its value. And that's without getting into the intricacies of inbound vs outbound fortifications.

This kind of intimate knowledge is also why I have suggested multiple times to have a PowerPlay Tsar/Manager/Producer/Community Manager. Someone who knows the community and/or PowerPlay well enough to recognize that something is a bad idea, either on their own or because the community as a whole is downright revolting against it. This is my own biggest gripe with the current situation - the people in the know are being completely ignored when they say "this is the worst thing to ever happen in PowerPlay" and with no explanation as to why Frontier thinks it IS a good idea. We're being treated like 3-year-olds having a temper tantrum, when the reality is that we're angry because someone just ran a steamroller over our car, and we're being given bus far as a replacement and told "it's only a minor inconvenience". By the way, in this simile Winters and Patreus are travelling salesmen who need the car for work, Torval works 50 miles from the nearest public transportation and Sirius works in a part of town where the bus only shows up once a fortnight.

We get extremely upset because we care. We care a lot, and we see the huge potential that this offers, and every time

Communicating with your customers is extremely important, and in some aspects of Elite: Dangerous Frontier does a fantastic job. Honestly. But for PowerPlay it honestly feels like we're talking to Groot. You're good people, but you don't speak our language, and most of the time we're left wondering if you even understand what we're saying.

Well said, CMDR Vectron.

I'm not going to go as far as asking for a full-time staff member dedicated to PowerPlay. I think we could even go for a couple ride-alongs, like Ed the Galactic Intern did with various player groups. Send us a volunteer, have them tour a few Powers, and see the intricacies that go into actually running one of these galactic Powers. Come hang out with us on your Thursday morning, near cycle tick, and see the spirit and strategy that happens in those critical hours: the last-minute fortification, the raids by commando teams in long-range ships who can fight right until the tick, and the final hour calls on preparation.

Let us show you how we feel, and how much we love this mode.

 

[howmanymexicans]

-my man!
well said.

 

[Arkadi]

please sticky!

This thread needs sticky! I only found Sandros answers to those pressing questions now. If I had read it before - I'd have had less headache

edit: also I'd like to ask: what is planned after a power collapses? Will anohter ingame-faction rank up as power automatically or will some sort of dangerous-games be held, each time a power collapses? Are there any plans for this?

 

[Captain Hooch]

IF they collapse Delaine this will be a SERIOUS blow to smugglers. We rely on Delaine's 20% buff to black markets and a black market in every system for running slaves out of Zemina Torval systems for mad profit.

I'm sorry but if they are just going to collapse Delaine that is going to screw me over royally, and if they collapse Delaine despite him not meeting the requirements for Collapse that is blatant cheating on their part. I hope you guys are prepared for war. For as much as I hate powerplay I don't want Delaine to collapse as his powers very existence helps me make a      ton of money, and I don't want the people who have put blood sweat and tears into Delaine to be screwed over when they didn't meet the criteria

 

[CMDR John Casey]

IF they collapse Delaine this will be a SERIOUS blow to smugglers. We rely on Delaine's 20% buff to black markets and a black market in every system for running slaves out of Zemina Torval systems for mad profit.

I'm sorry but if they are just going to collapse Delaine that is going to screw me over royally, and if they collapse Delaine despite him not meeting the requirements for Collapse that is blatant cheating on their part. I hope you guys are prepared for war. For as much as I hate powerplay I don't want Delaine to collapse as his powers very existence helps me make a ton of money, and I don't want the people who have put blood sweat and tears into Delaine to be screwed over when they didn't meet the criteria

Collapsing any power will hurt some feelings anyway. All powers have something worth, with some exceptions. For instance, nobody would like to see LYR and his discounts gone. But there are powers like Mahon that have nothing to offer, yet they're #1.

 

[Rubbernuke]

IF they collapse Delaine this will be a SERIOUS blow to smugglers. We rely on Delaine's 20% buff to black markets and a black market in every system for running slaves out of Zemina Torval systems for mad profit.

I'm sorry but if they are just going to collapse Delaine that is going to screw me over royally, and if they collapse Delaine despite him not meeting the requirements for Collapse that is blatant cheating on their part. I hope you guys are prepared for war. For as much as I hate powerplay I don't want Delaine to collapse as his powers very existence helps me make a      ton of money, and I don't want the people who have put blood sweat and tears into Delaine to be screwed over when they didn't meet the criteria

Not that I condone filthy criminals in Utopia, but you can always use the 10% black market bonus in Antal exploited systems too.