Poll about exit-to-menu delay time

[Jpotter]

Actually, when I was a really young guy (more than 45 years ago) we had a similar guy in out neigbourgh. When we all was playing in the real sandbox, this boy had a bit habit to destroy our sand castles, tunnels etc. Here and there, he also sometimes stole a plastic car from someone etc. After a really short time, we decided that we do not want to play with him and as soon as he appeared in the sandbox, we went to do something else. No problem for us, we always had a lot of fun around.
Funny thing was, that this boy, alone in the sanbox, always started crying and told his mom "They are evil, they do not want to play with me"...

You memory must be bad because you left out a HUGE part of that story. The insinuation that just because you are older means you are smarted is not missed. But enough with the insults, you don't have any valid point here.

What you missed was all of your mothers organized said 'sandbox' and told all of the kids, you included, that the point of the game was while you guys build up sand castles, tunnels etc. another boy is going to come in and try and destroy the castles and steal vehicles when you aren't looking. The winner builds the castle first and gets his car into the tunnels. But instead of playing fairly when the boy designated to play the 'bad guy' shows up, you all run an hide and 'quit' - so yea, the boy was upset because nobody was letting him play HOW HE WANTED TO PLAY according to how the game of sand box was setup. Just because you don't like how he plays doesn't make his enjoyment/way of playing invalid.

Sound familiar now??

 

[GluttonyFang]

You memory must be bad because you left out a HUGE part of that story. The insinuation that just because you are older means you are smarted is not missed. But enough with the insults, you don't have any valid point here.

What you missed was all of your mothers organized said 'sandbox' and told all of the kids, you included, that the point of the game was while you guys build up sand castles, tunnels etc. another boy is going to come in and try and destroy the castles and steal vehicles when you aren't looking. The winner builds the castle first and gets his car into the tunnels. But instead of playing fairly when the boy designated to play the 'bad guy' shows up, you all run an hide and 'quit' - so yea, the boy was upset because nobody was letting him play HOW HE WANTED TO PLAY according to how the game of sand box was setup.

Sound familiar now??

Forget it, some people here either have difficulty understanding reason or just simply don't want to hear reason.

 

[frostypaw]

Because you haven't provided any reasonable objection to the point I made, hence either voice a logical objection or you can keep writing unproductive commentary, your choice.

you've been given reasonable logical objections for a long time. but they're not your thoughts so they're wrong. heck i've done it time and again. it's not worth going over it again. just read back any of (probably) 100 threads

when you start with trying 'clever' wording you've already lost. good points aren't that hard to make

 

[GluttonyFang]

you've been given reasonable logical objections for a long time. but they're not your thoughts so they're wrong. heck i've done it time and again. it's not worth going over it again. just read back any of (probably) 100 threads

when you start with trying 'clever' wording you've already lost. good points aren't that hard to make

Ignoring, no productive content other than baseless accusation.

 

[Querty Out]

...
It is quite simple. Vast majority of players most probably do not want to play with you and do not want to play the way you like to play. Get used to it.
...

Can you back that "vast majority" up?

There is this poll back from August 2015 where 40% of players accepted Open "as is" with PVP being part of it: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=175773

I'm not claiming that the poll is accurate and sentiments may have changed.

Piracy is one of the more accepted forms of PVP I'd say and in a more recent poll 80% of participants agreed that there is a reasonable approach to piracy: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=252126

 

[Roybe]

Right now, I am against lengthening the logout timer...and would say that it probably should be shortened.

I am seeing a problem with interdictions and submission. I have had numerous submissions where I have recieved the 'you have submitted' message followed by the exit out of SC with the fail state, including the longer timer. In a chain interdiction situation tonight...this error occurred twice...the first error caused me to lose shields and 60% of hull, the second time, destroying my thrusters and FSD.

Basically, by submitting, I nearly lost what I had gained for my effort today, because the 15 second timer was almost to long to allow a graceful disconnect before I was destroyed.

So right now...I would prefer a shorter/immediate logout until this problem is repaired. Otherwise, the 15 second timer is fine.

 

[Daffan]

I cant believe 91 people voted for instant exit. That's basically equivalant to combat logging.

Secondly, it should be 60+ seconds.

15s means you can easily tank and just log out mid combat some times.

A bit more offtopic: High wake is OP garbage because it has no counter, seriously - if you are a good player it's impossible to be killed.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

A bit more offtopic: High wake is OP garbage because it has no counter, seriously - if you are a good player it's impossible to be killed.

So maybe it shouldn't be about the killing but the stealing.

 

[Captain Willard]

Looking at the results. Your poll is dead. Time to close it, unless ya think beating a dead horse will make it think your way.

 

[Mohrgan]

With High Waking so effective, it takes ten seconds, using the edit menu actually gives the pirate more opportunity. It's a point I've tried to make in all of the threads like this one. Player piracy arrived still born. Not from a lack of mechanics, or tools but, from a lack of willing victims.

In a course of making a game for the many, mechanics arose that allowed players to evade and out right avoid being attacked by another player. Because a large number of potential players wanted to play alone we have Solo. Because a large number of potential players wanted just to play with friends we have Private groups. Because having to travel, potentially long distances, to get to a jump out point, where there is no gravitational influences from massive bodies like planets and stars, we have high waking with no gravitational disruption. Because it is just a game we have a way to exit when the need arises.

As with all of the professions the game leaves us to look at the NPC's as our primary targets. The only real way to deal with this situation is to make piracy against NPC's profitable. As profitable as NPC bounty hunting is. You never see a player that identifies them self as a BH call for sweeping changes and social contracts. That's because they have a profitable alternative to hunting players, that can never be caught. That is what should happen.

Give NPC's cargo that can fill up the pirates credit balance like a Has RES does for a BH. FD has made the tools available, now they should make it rewarding as well.

 

[GluttonyFang]

With High Waking so effective, it takes ten seconds, using the edit menu actually gives the pirate more opportunity.

Untrue, already explained why in this thread.

 

[Mohrgan]

Untrue, already explained why in this thread.

Where? If you don't mind pointing it out. I don't think it takes more than ten seconds to High Wake.

P.S. It's nice how you break out one point to dismiss an entire train of thought. Your personal dismissal isn't awfully relevant.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Where? If you don't mind pointing it out. I don't think it takes more than ten seconds to High Wake.

It takes 15-16 second to successfully charge up the high-wake. This excludes FSD CD from interdiction and lining up with the targeted system.

During this time frame, the high waking ship's FSD/Drive/PP can be disabled or disrupted by malfunction or destruction of these modules. In the most recent patch, mines with ion disruptor effect brings thrusters to a stop and restart them, with mass lock canister restarts FSD (the module) completely. With torpedo, mass lock munition slows down FSD charge significantly.

So no, by no means is high waking more effective than 15 second menu log.

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P.S. It's nice how you break out one point to dismiss an entire train of thought. Your personal dismissal isn't awfully relevant.

See how I quoted only a portion of your post? Stop jumping to conclusion.

 

[Mohrgan]

It takes 15-16 second to successfully charge up the high-wake. This excludes FSD CD from interdiction and lining up with the targeted system.

During this time frame, the high waking ship's FSD/Drive/PP can be disabled or disrupted by malfunction or destruction of these modules. In the most recent patch, mines with ion disruptor effect brings thrusters to a stop and restart them, with mass lock canister restarts FSD (the module) completely. With torpedo, mass lock munition slows down FSD charge significantly.

So no, by no means is high waking more effective than 15 second menu log.

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See how I quoted only a portion of your post? Stop jumping to conclusion.

There is a process delay in opening and clicking the exit as well, plus you can't muss with a ship after the spool up ends and the 4 sec countdown begins, so it looks more like they are equal. You align your ship while the spool is in progress. I will investigate for myself.

Your quoting just a portion of my post is my humble complaint. The reasoning there amounts to a new suggestion to make piracy mimic bounty hunting as a profession. In function and rate of pay. Turn your word play to why that doesn't satisfy you. Oh, yeah. FD said it was a valid career path to steal from players alone, failing to ensure the rest of us knew about that.

 

[GluttonyFang]

There is a process delay in opening and clicking the exit as well, plus you can't muss with a ship after the spool up ends and the 4 sec countdown begins, so it looks more like they are equal. You align your ship while the spool is in progress. I will investigate for myself.

It is by no means equal, the exit menu can be accessed immediately as the interdiction finishes, FSD is not so even when target submitted. The spool up in the end is not counted into the 15 second of charge time.

Let the purpose of the interdiction be piracy or destruction, 15 seconds is not enough for piracy due to grade A hatch breaker taking 18 second to even hack a hatch and bounty hunter not being able to take down shields and hulls in 15 seconds unless the target is in an extremely vulnerable ship (extremely unlikely for a wanted Cmdr).

The 15 seconds during high-waking is open to the effects and counter play I described. Logging via menu has no counter.

So no, they are not equal, whatsoever.

Your quoting just a portion of my post is my humble complaint.

Very well.

The reasoning there amounts to a new suggestion to make piracy mimic bounty hunting as a profession. In function and rate of pay.

Pay is not the issue here, it's the multiplayer interaction mechanic of two legitimate professions being completely broken, or FD come out and say it clearly that these professions need the explicit consent of targeted players in Open/Private modes. Otherwise it's broken mechanics.

Turn your word play to why that doesn't satisfy you. Oh, yeah. FD said it was a valid career path to steal from players alone, failing to ensure the rest of us knew about that.

The issue here is players need confirmation from FD, do they believe the explicit consent of targeted players is necessary to proceed with the multiplayer aspect of the professions of bounty hunting and piracy. If it is, then all this talking amounts to nothing and I can finally stop trying to be a pirate in this game because it's impossible. At that point "player piracy" is begging and "player bounty hunting" is explicit consensual combative PvP. If it isn't working as intended, then they need to fix the abuse of an out of game mechanic to nullify and break legitimate in-game professions and mechanics, and acknowledge that they broke the multiplayer aspects of the said professions.

 

[Mohrgan]

I stand corrected. The spool up time for a High wake is 15 seconds. I just timed it. With all of the process time the Exit and High Wake are dead heats. Equals.

The profession of piracy can be fixed just as Bounty Hunting has. Make it profitable to do against the only captive audience we have, NPC's. Excluding them, through some word tangle of scripted and unscripted doesn't change the fact that there are more ways to avoid a pirate than there is to catch your prey. Most importantly the other two modes. Forcing people to be victims in open, that's what your suggestions do, will only hasten the population shift to the other modes.

The need/want of the players to be able to exit the game is more important than bolstering one aspect of one profession. Too many fundamental building blocks of this game allow for avoiding player on player conflict. I believe the conflict FD is trying to create is intended to be filtered through the BGS/PP and not just one of ship on ship combat.

I believe a reasonable man would know when the game is up. Adding to the Exit timer would end up just adding to the population in Solo/Group.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I stand corrected. The spool up time for a High wake is 15 seconds. I just timed it. With all of the process time the Exit and High Wake are dead heats. Equals.

You are throwing practicality out of the window for convenience, I already explained to you why they are not equal in practice and in theory considering the access to menu is faster than the access to FSD.

The profession of piracy can be fixed just as Bounty Hunting has. Make it profitable to do against the only captive audience we have, NPC's. Excluding them, through some word tangle of scripted and unscripted doesn't change the fact that there are more ways to avoid a pirate than there is to catch your prey. Most importantly the other two modes. Forcing people to be victims in open, that's what your suggestions do, will only hasten the population shift to the other modes.

It's not about forcing people to be victims, it's about people embracing all legitimate professions to be legitimate and respect other players' time. FD allowed players to trade as they've allowed players to pirate, and players to be hunted.

The need/want of the players to be able to exit the game is more important than bolstering one aspect of one profession.

It's not bolstering, it's called making it functional unless they believe functionality means otherwise.

Too many fundamental building blocks of this game allow for avoiding player on player conflict. I believe the conflict FD is trying to create is intended to be filtered through the BGS/PP and not just one of ship on ship combat.

Speculation, up for anyone's grab.

Adding to the Exit timer would end up just adding to the population in Solo/Group.

That doesn't phase me the slightest as long as people come to understand that Open mode is where all legitimate play styles have a legitimate and functional place with each other, whereas solo and private are used for finer selection and exclusivity.

 

[Mohrgan]

You are throwing practicality out of the window for convenience, I already explained to you why they are not equal in practice and in theory considering the access to menu is faster than the access to FSD.



It's not about forcing people to be victims, it's about people embracing all legitimate professions to be legitimate and respect other players' time. FD allowed players to trade as they've allowed players to pirate, and players to be hunted.



It's not bolstering, it's called making it functional unless they believe functionality means otherwise.



Speculation, up for anyone's grab.



That doesn't phase me the slightest as long as people come to understand that Open mode is where all legitimate play styles have a legitimate and functional place with each other, whereas solo and private are used for finer selection and exclusivity.

You explanation does the same, and doesn't move me. I can draw my own conclusions.

You can't ask FD to make the players embrace something. You can only ask the players to do so, and that hasn't worked out.

I believe FD understands that offering the tools is the most that they can do. Without changing the fundamentals of the P2P, and Mode systems.

You just won;t accept it.

So, you would rather accept that the players in open embrace through coercion, rather than acknowledge the fact that that is what you have already? Only those willing to be pirated will stick around. That's what your asking for. The only exception is that you believe it is important not to let them change their minds.

The reasonable man would just accept that you can only do what the other players are willing to do with you.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's not about forcing people to be victims, it's about people embracing all legitimate professions to be legitimate and respect other players' time. FD allowed players to trade as they've allowed players to pirate, and players to be hunted.

Then why complain about players leaving the game if it's not about forcing people to be victims (to players who preferentially seek out other players as targets)?

Players do not directly impact on other players' games when trading to anything like the same degree as player pirates do....

 

[excalibus]

In the old Elite, you used to only be able to save whilst landed or docked. My idea is that logging off in Space should initiate the self destruct.

I'm not an avid PVPer (the occasional encounter), I play purely for the fun of the game. But the thought of logging off during combat is abhorant to me - I wouldn't do it. I think those that do are just cheating the game and themselves. It's a risky game, enjoy the risk that your hard work could be obliterated, plan and prepare accordingly to avoid, and be prepared to enjoy re-doing your hard work.

It has happend to me - I laughed, I learned, and I carried on.

Anyone stating I cannot - sometimes I have to dash off and do x, y, z, well I have two words - Time management.

Be safe CMDRs

so how do I log off over 60,000 LY from inhabited space - which takes weeks of real time to get there?