The AI behaves exactly like before latest patch. The only difference is that it doesnt posses the mutated insta gib weapons.
'Attack of the AI' III
- Thread starter Ian Phillips
- Start date
I m harmless, I m flying an anaconda.
last 6 interdictions:
elite drop
deadly FAS
elite FAS
master drop
master drop
master FDL
so its not combat rank at least. Or I hope it isnt, it would suck to be attacked by that lineup in a f-rated sidey.
Friend of mine and I had a talk about it. Theorized ship response was based on your ship, and the enemy skill rank based on your total assets. Based on our limited statistical basis, it fit well enough. Friend is a lot richer than me, and claims he only meets elites, but that the ship size scales with what hes flying.
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It's better... but not by a whole lot. The fact that AI ships can outmaneuver pretty much any real player tells me that AI still is being given the 'bot' advantage of computer controlled characters.
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Original and current.
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Original and current.
Had a session with a mate today. He's competent-ranked, and flies a basic Vulture with two fixed pulses. I flew my iCourier. We did a whole bunch of missions: low-CZ, RES, assassinations and a planetary salvage mission (oh, and one beer donation mission as we recognized the urgency). He earned almost 7 million, died once (accidental hit in RES when surrounded by cops) with an insurance <500k. One high-ranking Eagle flew circles around him, but he eventually got it, and everything else went smoothly. Ot one point we had difficulties using nav-lock (ending up <10k km away from each other every time), but that was fixed when we both restarted the game. All missions worked, he was interdicted +-5 times in total. He noticed the increased difficulty but nothing that overly worried him, and we both had a great session.
Arent the first two/three from Wolfenstein 3D?
Arent the first two/three from Wolfenstein 3D?
Balance seems okay when flying in space doing missions which doesn't bring too much attention unless kill missions. Had a decent mix so seems solid enough. If I do kill missions and annoy certain factions then I see the harder ships and that's cool. Seems real enough. If you do a mission higher than your current rank then you will experience tougher opposition, or should. Still trying to work out how well that works atm.
Comp Nav beacons are dangerous places, same with even low intensity CZ's. CZ's have too many high ranked ships like Elite Anaconda's which I would expect in High intensity...not so much in Low.
Not so much about the AI's abilities but the frequency of when the better ships appear...so when a player makes a choice, they know what to expect, like possibility of being interdicted by a far better ship.
Comp Nav beacons are dangerous places, same with even low intensity CZ's. CZ's have too many high ranked ships like Elite Anaconda's which I would expect in High intensity...not so much in Low.
Not so much about the AI's abilities but the frequency of when the better ships appear...so when a player makes a choice, they know what to expect, like possibility of being interdicted by a far better ship.
I'm just a casual gamer. Under 300 hours over the past year. But I've watched over 100 hours of video, and read a lot of tips and tricks over that last year. So I always prided myself on being able to "handle myself" when I traded, mined and explored. I never died. I was always smart when to fight and when to run.
I ran a Python, usually A-spec, including 5A or 6A shields, 7A Distributor (despite knocking 2ly off range), etc... Yes, I trade with a pretty combat-ready Python. I even mined in a Vulture (yes, a Vulture) prior to that. Just better safe than sorry. No T6 and I even preferred a Viper over Cobra, definitely the Mark IV once it became available.
But after 2 quick deaths in 2.1, I turned off the game. I just came back last night, but the Chance/RNG that still seems to exist in 2.1.02 made me turn off the game again, and I don't think I'm coming back. Because after 2 hours of mining, got within 3ly of a station for the mining CG -- this is my first time playing 2.1.02 -- and what happened next was comical.
I got interdicted by a "Deadly" FGS. He was on me, but I was able to get my bar back up after 20 seconds of struggling to escape the interdiction. Then suddenly, as I'm at the top, it drops wholesale, in under a second, even though I was white. So when we drop from the interdiction, I immediately run, 7A Distributor, 6A Thrusters, noting he's always at least 2km away, and I fire off chaff the whole time. But he hits me, and again, and again, but finally, I get my FSD cool down. My 6A Shields + 0A Booster held off, barely. I think I'm good now, especially as it builds without any mass factor, because he's too far away. Wrong!
As I get 3/4ths FSD charge up, suddenly, he gets my shields down. Now I'm watching my hull, 95%, FSD is almost done ... then BAM! At 89% hull, FSD is malfunctioning, virtually the second I should have jumped! It's over. He's taken out my FSD. Full combat spec Python, but no chance. Over 2 hours of mining, all lost. Just not worth spending my limited time gaming when I'm going to be paying 5M every time I play. I'm now down 15M since 2.1 in just 5 hours of play, always seconds to death without much warning, comical every time.
Case-in-point: In my opinion, the game is now for Elite pilots in combat-only ships. Traders, miners, even explorers, ones kitted up in balanced ships like the Python, are toast. Anything generic and balanced cannot compete, unless of course, you've already engineered yourself way up. I haven't ... yet. Still trying to get components. Sigh, might as well be Eve On-line now.
If I want to come back, I'll play in a Vulture, full combat-kit, and when I die, I'm only out 0.5M instead of 5M for the Python. Not worth doing anything else. It's the only way to make it "fun" now. Mining for a couple of hours and hauling back 200t for the mining CG was my mistake. Same goes for explorers who get killed before they can get their data to the station. Talk about an even worse frustration! I cannot afford to pay off 5M every time I get on, especially when even a CG payout isn't going to cover it, much less non-CG missions with less payouts.
I ran a Python, usually A-spec, including 5A or 6A shields, 7A Distributor (despite knocking 2ly off range), etc... Yes, I trade with a pretty combat-ready Python. I even mined in a Vulture (yes, a Vulture) prior to that. Just better safe than sorry. No T6 and I even preferred a Viper over Cobra, definitely the Mark IV once it became available.
But after 2 quick deaths in 2.1, I turned off the game. I just came back last night, but the Chance/RNG that still seems to exist in 2.1.02 made me turn off the game again, and I don't think I'm coming back. Because after 2 hours of mining, got within 3ly of a station for the mining CG -- this is my first time playing 2.1.02 -- and what happened next was comical.
I got interdicted by a "Deadly" FGS. He was on me, but I was able to get my bar back up after 20 seconds of struggling to escape the interdiction. Then suddenly, as I'm at the top, it drops wholesale, in under a second, even though I was white. So when we drop from the interdiction, I immediately run, 7A Distributor, 6A Thrusters, noting he's always at least 2km away, and I fire off chaff the whole time. But he hits me, and again, and again, but finally, I get my FSD cool down. My 6A Shields + 0A Booster held off, barely. I think I'm good now, especially as it builds without any mass factor, because he's too far away. Wrong!
As I get 3/4ths FSD charge up, suddenly, he gets my shields down. Now I'm watching my hull, 95%, FSD is almost done ... then BAM! At 89% hull, FSD is malfunctioning, virtually the second I should have jumped! It's over. He's taken out my FSD. Full combat spec Python, but no chance. Over 2 hours of mining, all lost. Just not worth spending my limited time gaming when I'm going to be paying 5M every time I play. I'm now down 15M since 2.1 in just 5 hours of play, always seconds to death without much warning, comical every time.
Case-in-point: In my opinion, the game is now for Elite pilots in combat-only ships. Traders, miners, even explorers, ones kitted up in balanced ships like the Python, are toast. Anything generic and balanced cannot compete, unless of course, you've already engineered yourself way up. I haven't ... yet. Still trying to get components. Sigh, might as well be Eve On-line now.
If I want to come back, I'll play in a Vulture, full combat-kit, and when I die, I'm only out 0.5M instead of 5M for the Python. Not worth doing anything else. It's the only way to make it "fun" now. Mining for a couple of hours and hauling back 200t for the mining CG was my mistake. Same goes for explorers who get killed before they can get their data to the station. Talk about an even worse frustration! I cannot afford to pay off 5M every time I get on, especially when even a CG payout isn't going to cover it, much less non-CG missions with less payouts.
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No idea about pulling the plug thing, never done it myself. Is your cutter decently equipped? Good shield, shield boosters, shield cell banks, chaff, point defence, heat sinks, decent thrusters? What do you do when you get interdicted?
Mission ranking is very closely tied to NPC spawns. An Elite assassination mission always sends me to elite targets. A Dangerous 'kill pirates' mission had mostly dangerous and master pirates of that faction spawn. Low-ranking salvage missions have me be attacked by novice eagles and such.
I have the ship fit with all that I have a nice hauler and guns all of it. The npcs are way to strong for a hauler even mine. Because I only get interdicted by Fur de lance's and Anacond's. I call my friend an Anaconda pilot and he said the same thing way to hard and he was getting shredded to so quit saying its me and not the npc's.
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I'm someone who always played this game primarily for the combat. I was really excited when I heard about the new, more difficult AI, and I dove headfirst into 2.1. At first, I was loving it, the new AI seemed challenging and fresh, and the whole game felt new. A few days later, however, I started to pick up on the patterns of the new AI. They are honestly just as predictable as before, once you learn their tricks, so if you're a decent combat pilot in a strong ship, they're not really a big deal. I would argue that, for the people who wanted harder AI, the new AI isn't so much more fun and challenging, as it is more tedious and time-consuming to kill. I started out loving it, but have since come around to the other way of thinking. If you're not a decent combat pilot in a strong ship, the difficulty of the new AI is basically insurmountable, as evidenced by the huge number of threads indicating as much. FD hemmorhaged a lot of less hardcore players with this update, and I really sympathize with those who found themselves suddenly playing an entirely different game when 2.1 released.
All FD really needed to do was fix the bugs with the old AI. The sit-and-spin, the scan-and-ram, and the constant asteroid collisions all needed to go. If they had just done that, and maybe just slightly up-tuned the loadouts on higher-ranked NPCs, I think everyone would have been perfectly happy with that. For a decent combat pilot, the AI was no challenge 1-on-1, but it was still entirely possible to find tough fights if you really wanted. Pulling an Anaconda and 2 Vulture wing in a HazRES was a tough fight. Strong signal sources were tough fights. Combat challenges existed in the game for those willing to seek them out, without being constantly forced onto every single player, as they are now.
At this point, though, even though it's pretty clear that they're regretting their decision to amp up the AI a hundred-fold overnight, as evidenced by their continued efforts to down-tune them, I fear the damage has already been done. If they do the wise thing and roll back to the old AI, all the hardcore combat players who like the new AI will be upset, even though combat challenges would still exist in the game for those who want them, and it might already be too late to win back the masses of players who bailed on the game after getting repeatedly slaughtered by the new AI. FD is definitely in a tough spot with this one, but I believe that the smartest thing to do, from a business perspective, would be to roll back to the old AI (sans the bugs).
TL;DR - If you know what you're doing, the new AI isn't more fun and challenging, it's just more annoying, but if you're a casual, non-combat player, they're unbeatable. The cost in playerbase size of keeping the new AI around just isn't worth it.
All FD really needed to do was fix the bugs with the old AI. The sit-and-spin, the scan-and-ram, and the constant asteroid collisions all needed to go. If they had just done that, and maybe just slightly up-tuned the loadouts on higher-ranked NPCs, I think everyone would have been perfectly happy with that. For a decent combat pilot, the AI was no challenge 1-on-1, but it was still entirely possible to find tough fights if you really wanted. Pulling an Anaconda and 2 Vulture wing in a HazRES was a tough fight. Strong signal sources were tough fights. Combat challenges existed in the game for those willing to seek them out, without being constantly forced onto every single player, as they are now.
At this point, though, even though it's pretty clear that they're regretting their decision to amp up the AI a hundred-fold overnight, as evidenced by their continued efforts to down-tune them, I fear the damage has already been done. If they do the wise thing and roll back to the old AI, all the hardcore combat players who like the new AI will be upset, even though combat challenges would still exist in the game for those who want them, and it might already be too late to win back the masses of players who bailed on the game after getting repeatedly slaughtered by the new AI. FD is definitely in a tough spot with this one, but I believe that the smartest thing to do, from a business perspective, would be to roll back to the old AI (sans the bugs).
TL;DR - If you know what you're doing, the new AI isn't more fun and challenging, it's just more annoying, but if you're a casual, non-combat player, they're unbeatable. The cost in playerbase size of keeping the new AI around just isn't worth it.
^^ This. So much this. Except even EVE is easier than this.
Seconded.
I think your opinion on the AI will depend on what you are flying - I'm either running missions in my DBS or carrying PP fort supplies in a Tradeconda this week, and I am only having problems with the conda. Interdiction isn't working as advertised for me, meaning my submit-boost-jump is being hampered by an FSD fail that I simply ought not have (I zero throttle immediately). As a consequence I've been shot at rather more than I'd like, and the Conda simply isn't as nippy as the DBS at running like a girl.
During that unwanted attention my conda is really struggling, smaller ships easily outfly it, while my turrets don't seem to do very much. I've fitted mines, and I can take a shield ring or two down sometimes, but the nett result is lots of repair bills - and one 10M rebuy.
I can easily see that the improved AI is going to be a big improvement for those who think Elite is all about combat, and I'd be loathe to ask for it to be turned down a notch as that would impinge on the combat players' game - they'd quite rightly claim that just as the AI improved to the point it provided a decent challenge, the carebears had it nerfed. Isn't there some middle way forward though? Couldn't the improved AI be restricted to occupying signal sources, res sites, and thta sort of thing without them roaming the trade routes? Provide the good AI for the combat ship flyers in places they can easily find, make the assassination targets on the mission boards high ability AIs, but restrict the NPCs who wander the trade routes interdicting people to something that people in trade/explorer/mining/general purpose rigs stand a chance against?
I don't get it - in my FAS I expect a good fight, but in my trade ships (which includes my tradeconda) being serially interdicted by an Elite Python stops being a challenge and just becomes bloody annoying.
Dave
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I have not run into anything like that at all. That viper is behaving strangely. It's maneuvering as if in a typical joust to turning battle without firing. Just to be certain, I have never witnessed anything like that in my experiences after the 2.1/patched 2.1.
Just to play a bit of devil's advocate here, why ED should be one of the games catering to everyone? Elderly doesn't play TF2 as far as I heard.
It doesnt have to, but if it could why not? Plenty of ways to make sure there is a variation in safety across the bubble so people can 'pick' their difficulty. FD is interested in make sure there are safer regions, many players want it and it wont effect me as a 'combat pilot' as long ast there are dangerous regions as well. Heck, why not let the thargoids take part of the bubble?
Doesn't sound strong argument to me. ED doesn't need everyone. It needs many as possible, but not everyone.Because they need continued income if the game is to live out it's 10 year lifespan.